Anthis Dying

[Reefpilot11]

Could it have anything to do with the water treatment this month from Pinellas county?

 

[Paul B]

I still say ammonia. Ammonia would not still be in the water the next day as it is quickly oxidized by bacteria but i think you overwhelmed the system with those fish. The ammonia built up, killed them, then was oxidized by the bacteria. I can offer no other explanation.
Here now in the Long Island Sound where I boat the fish are dying by the thousands from apoxia. There is not enough oxygen in the water, they all die with their mouth agape just like yours. I have seen it dozens of times. It only takes a very little bit of ammonia, which is excreted by the fish themselves to kill them. When a tank is cycled, it is only cycled for whatever you cycled the tank with. If you used a dead shrimp, there is only enough bacteria in the water to process a dead shrimp. After the shrimp is disposed of, the bacteria start to die until there is more for them to process. If you add fish, it takes a few days to grow the bacteria to support those fish. In that few days, the fish can easily die, but then the bacteria will quickly grow to where they are now and you can add some fish. I bet if you doubled the amount of fish in that tank now, they would also die.

 

[CuzzA]

I agree with Paul. Anthias are tough because we want to introduce a harem together, but that means a lot of fish in a small qt with not enough bacteria and not to mention these fish need to be fed often. At least 2-3 times per day. I would consider adding live rock and observing the fish for 6 weeks instead of prophylactically treating them where most meds kill off the bacteria. If signs of disease pop up then I would remove the rock. Also have a lot of water on hand for lots of water changes and also some Prime. I would do frequent water changes regardless what a test kit shows. Hopefully by then enough bacteria would have colonized the tanks surface and filters. Hobby test kits are helpful, but the margin of error is still present.

If you approach these fish differently with the focus on bacteria and ammonia elimination and they survive, I think it would be safe to assume it wasn't disease that killed the first set. If they meet the same fate after aggressively eliminating ammonia then perhaps John is right and you have velvet in the system.

 

[asmodyus]

I agree with Paul. Anthias are tough because we want to introduce a harem together, but that means a lot of fish in a small qt with not enough bacteria and not to mention these fish need to be fed often. At least 2-3 times per day. I would consider adding live rock and observing the fish for 6 weeks instead of prophylactically treating them where most meds kill off the bacteria. If signs of disease pop up then I would remove the rock. Also have a lot of water on hand for lots of water changes and also some Prime. I would do frequent water changes regardless what a test kit shows. Hopefully by then enough bacteria would have colonized the tanks surface and filters. Hobby test kits are helpful, but the margin of error is still present.

If you approach these fish differently with the focus on bacteria and ammonia elimination and they survive, I think it would be safe to assume it wasn't disease that killed the first set. If they meet the same fate after aggressively eliminating ammonia then perhaps John is right and you have velvet in the system.

That is very interesting basically changes everything you do for a QT tank in this situation. Example water changes are usually triggered when you have ammonia build up or the start if you can catch fast enough but if there no ammonia being found because of I will call it ghost ammonia which was enough to kill them but fast enough to disappear before the test kits can register it what do you do? Especially on a cycled tank that been cycled for months now?

I guess what you guys are saying it comes down too small of a QT tank? So a 20 gallon long is to small for (5) 1 to 2 inch fish (the Anthias are small) and would size would need than what a 29 or 55?

I now have them separated original 2 in a 10 gallon and 3 news in the 20 gallon. I was going to in a couple of days take the 2 in put them in the 20 with the new ones since there all from the same batch at the fish store.

 

[ichthyman]

My argument isn't that velvet is the culprit. Please reread my post I was very clear. I take issue with the false statement of a dead fish with an open mouth is "classic" sign of ammonia poisioning. The reality is many issues both environmental and pathogen derived can cause this sign that your are fixated with attributing solely to ammonia. I used velvet as an example of a process that kills fish rapidly by asphyxiation that often results with mouth gaping. Again, it is the false statement that IMO needs to be corrected so all possibilities are thoroughly considered.

 

[Paul B]

Especially on a cycled tank that been cycled for months now?

A "cycled" tank does not stay cycled unless food is continousely available to the bacteria. If you remove the fish, the tank will revert to an uncycled tank. It is not Ghost ammonia, just that ammonia is quickly reduced. Not quickly enough to keep the fish alive but in a day or two as it is constantly removed, just in your case, not fast enough for those few fish.

 

[asmodyus]

A "cycled" tank does not stay cycled unless food is continousely available to the bacteria. If you remove the fish, the tank will revert to an uncycled tank. It is not Ghost ammonia, just that ammonia is quickly reduced. Not quickly enough to keep the fish alive but in a day or two as it is constantly removed, just in your case, not fast enough for those few fish.

I just never seen ammonia disappear that fast is all. But I have only been in this hobby for little over 2 years and still don't know a whole lot it seems.

thanks guys I will keep all your information in mind and will try to correct what I can.

 

[Paul B]

My reef has about 25 fish, an unknown number of crabs and thousands of amphipods that I collect and dump in all the time. I overfeed because all the paired fish are spawning. There is no ammonia in my tank because even though it is generated constantly by the animals, it is almost instantly processed by my bacteria. If I were to put those fish in a new, clean tank, they would all die in an hour due to a lack of enough bacteria.

 

[CuzzA]

Ok. However, I almost always use words and phrases like, "maybe, likely, perhaps, could, usually, it's possible, etc."

In my post I said, "Perhaps" John is right about velvet. Not in the affirmative that it is velvet. Simply another possibility. I should have stated "likely" ammonia poisoning in my first post. Sometimes the brain works faster than my typing fingers.

per·haps
pərˈ(h)aps/
adverb
used to express uncertainty or possibility.

There could be a number of reasons, but IMO, ammonia fits. Fish typically don't go from happy and eating one moment to dropping dead from a disease or parasite the next. From what I know about velvet or similar diseases and parasites, even if they are quick killers, the fish would stop eating first. Unless we took a sample under a microscope and autopsied the fish, everything is speculative. I'm speculating ammonia based on the details and information available.

 

[Paul B]

That is correct IMO. A sick fish looks sick first, then croaks usually with symptoms. Ammonia kills very quickly and the dead fish die with their mouth agape. They do not look like that from parasites, bacteria or an alien invasion.

 

[risin]

I don't recall the mouth position on death, but I bought 5 anthias a while back and ended up with one. Mine were over a 2 month period though. One jumped and three went from fat and happy. To hiding for a day then dead the next day. Colors were normal and they did not look sick at all. I assumed it was due to being captured with chemicals/cyanide.



It definitely wasn't ammonia because I have a dozen other fish 2,3,5,9 years old and a bunch of sps doing great.

 

[ichthyman]

They do not look like that from parasites, bacteria or an alien invasion.

A few examples of a known pathogen present. Why the open mouth? Hypoxia! Respiratory distress brought about by a PATHOGEN. Much like pneumonia killing those infected with HIV that has progressed into AIDS.

"Green chromis with Uronema infection that might have responded to chloroquine if treatment was started soon enough."
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/fish

"Brooklynella hostilis"
http://nuestroacuario.com/en/brooklynella-hostilis-skin-turbidity/

Cypriniiform with a possible "alien invasion" by a nematode.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/feedrfaqs.htm

"Dead fish with typical "punched out lesions" probably associated with Pfiesteria complex organisms (PCOs) obtained August 1, 1998, from Flanners Beach, Neuse River, NC, where a fish kill during this time proved to be due to PCOs."
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/439437_2
Psst, Pfiesteria is a Dinoflagellate.

 

[CuzzA]

I don't recall the mouth position on death, but I bought 5 anthias a while back and ended up with one. Mine were over a 2 month period though. One jumped and three went from fat and happy. To hiding for a day then dead the next day. Colors were normal and they did not look sick at all. I assumed it was due to being captured with chemicals/cyanide.



It definitely wasn't ammonia because I have a dozen other fish 2,3,5,9 years old and a bunch of sps doing great.

This is a very common, not always, description of what happens with anthias in our captive systems.

The anthia harem usually consists of the large dominant male, a large dominant female that is allowed more free rein than the rest of the smaller females within the group. The male predominantly keeps the harem in check while the large female is back up, so to speak, keeping others in check to an extent. When the male dies the large female will change sex and take his place. The greater the number and correct sex of the harem is important in captivity. The more females the better. This way the "beatings", for lack of a better term, are spread out amongst all of the fish rather than just 1-3. If you end up with more than one male it usually doesn't end well.

In my experience a "minimum" of 5 anthias (1 male, 4 females) will yield good long term success. What likely happened with yours was the dominant male and female beat up the remaining two until they both succumbed. Once those two died, the last female's fate was sealed.

That's the way I understand the typical anthia hierarchy from my research. I have 5 Bartletts so this is also from my experience and observations.

 

[CuzzA]

A few examples of a known pathogen present. Why the open mouth? Hypoxia! Respiratory distress brought about by a PATHOGEN. Much like pneumonia killing those infected with HIV that has progressed into AIDS.

Psst, Pfiesteria is a Dinoflagellate.

Yes, I agree, Hypoxia causes the mouth to be agape. All good information. But all of those fish in the pictures have clear signs of infections, whereas asmodyus' fish, at least from the picture, appear healthy.... Errr.... As healthy as a dead fish can look. :spin1:

At the end of the day, lets just hope it is ammonia, otherwise is sounds like these replacement fish are doomed and his qt will need to be sterilized and restarted.

Keep us posted asmodyus.

 

[Paul B]

Cypriniiform with a possible "alien invasion" by a nematode.

Definitely an Alien invasion :rolleye1:

 

[ichthyman]

this parasite is also very difficult to distinguish on pale-colored fish

Remember that part? Also, those with experience know Amyloodinium can be acute and isolated to the gills.:spin1:

It appears my Green Chromis link went poof. RC must filter Advanced Aquarists. See attached.

"Green chromis with Uronema infection that might have responded to chloroquine if treatment was started soon enough."

 

[risin]

This is a very common, not always, description of what happens with anthias in our captive systems.

The anthia harem usually consists of the large dominant male, a large dominant female that is allowed more free rein than the rest of the smaller females within the group. The male predominantly keeps the harem in check while the large female is back up, so to speak, keeping others in check to an extent. When the male dies the large female will change sex and take his place. The greater the number and correct sex of the harem is important in captivity. The more females the better. This way the "beatings", for lack of a better term, are spread out amongst all of the fish rather than just 1-3. If you end up with more than one male it usually doesn't end well.

In my experience a "minimum" of 5 anthias (1 male, 4 females) will yield good long term success. What likely happened with yours was the dominant male and female beat up the remaining two until they both succumbed. Once those two died, the last female's fate was sealed.

That's the way I understand the typical anthia hierarchy from my research. I have 5 Bartletts so this is also from my experience and observations.

I do believe the jumper was a male in transition and the full blown male chased him out. I didn't see any aggression in the pack, but it's certainly possible. I do want to sustain a group of 5+ but will wait till find some healthy ones.

 

[gambitcobra]

This is a very common, not always, description of what happens with anthias in our captive systems.

The anthia harem usually consists of the large dominant male, a large dominant female that is allowed more free rein than the rest of the smaller females within the group. The male predominantly keeps the harem in check while the large female is back up, so to speak, keeping others in check to an extent. When the male dies the large female will change sex and take his place. The greater the number and correct sex of the harem is important in captivity. The more females the better. This way the "beatings", for lack of a better term, are spread out amongst all of the fish rather than just 1-3. If you end up with more than one male it usually doesn't end well.

In my experience a "minimum" of 5 anthias (1 male, 4 females) will yield good long term success. What likely happened with yours was the dominant male and female beat up the remaining two until they both succumbed. Once those two died, the last female's fate was sealed.

That's the way I understand the typical anthia hierarchy from my research. I have 5 Bartletts so this is also from my experience and observations.

Cuzza must be taking notes from John and Chris at Faois lol

I can tell you all first hand this sounds like velvet and I am not a professor at this at all. It literally will kill all your fish in days, been there and lost 24 anthias last month to Velvet and I was lucky to save one tang and a few wrasses.
Again it pays to have a LFS who does quarantine and makes sure the fish are eating properly before they sell them to you. I made that mistake by buying a cheap sand shifting Goby from a LFS off Dale mabry and didnt think anything of it. The Goby was the ONLY thing added to the tank for at least 4-6 months and died a week or so later. It was like a bomb went off, fish died over night and they all were eating 2 times a day.

 

[LiquidCache]

Again it pays to have a LFS who does quarantine and makes sure the fish are eating properly before they sell them to you. I made that mistake by buying a cheap sand shifting Goby from a LFS off Dale mabry and didnt think anything of it. The Goby was the ONLY thing added to the tank for at least 4-6 months and died a week or so later. It was like a bomb went off, fish died over night and they all were eating 2 times a day.

2nd that. I feel that I could purchase anything at FAOIS and, after a proper acclimation, put it straight in my DT. I have never seen any questionable fish or corals at that store.

If you want the quality, you go see John and Chris.

 

[asmodyus]

Okay so the 2 that I got from the original bunch on Saturday or doing okay or at least one is the other one of them is questionable very lethargic not eating so I'm not sure if he is going to make it but he been like that since Sunday when I moved them to the 10 gallon.

The other 3 I got yesterday that are in the 20 are doing great so will see how things are.