Any serious SPS collectors use LED?

Wazzel said:
I run LEDs on my tank and I am very happy. The only complaint I have on my AI hydra 52's is they do not cover 24x24 as well as I would like. It is more like 24 in the axis of the pucks and 18 in the other. I do not believe it will take 2x more fixtures. If I was setting up a long tank that was 24" wide I would only add one more fixture. So 3 fixtures on a 120, not 6. That is just silly from what I have seen.

I am not seeing any more self shading that when I ran MH/VHO or VHO only. Colors are similar as far as I can tell/recall.

Growth has been good in the first 6 months even with having had red bugs. About on par with the MH/VHO system I ran on the last tank.

Where are you guys getting those crazy cost comparisons? When I looked at LED vs MH/T-5 for my 60 it was more like a two or three year pay back just considering hardware and lamps. Are you using quality ballast and reflectors or e-bay stuff? I never even looked at operating cost.
Click to expand...


3 LEDS for your 120 So let's go high end and get the good stuff...3x $650 for the Radions=$1950 then you need a controller right. Maybe you already have an Apex, we will leave that for easy argument. We are at$1950 for LEDS.

MH X2 20" Lumen brights will do same space let's get 250 W doesn't really matter yet. Those are $110 each. 2 Luma tek ballasts $140 each. 2 bulbs of your choice say $50 each.....That's a whopping $600

LEDS $1950
MH $600

Difference of $1350.... $100 annually for bulbs that payback as you mentioned for hardware is what again......my calculation says your 2-3 year payback is a dream. Much closer to 12-13 years with just hardware as you mentioned.

If we buy cheap Chinese LEDS then the payback is probably 2 years but you get what you pay for and Chinese junk is not going to grow like a MH.


Do you want more cost analysis?
 
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Portrait view of my tank (side panel shot). Using Superlux LED and par 38's. Colors seem to be accurate with this setup. Palmer blue mille looks blue, pink mille looks pink etc. Even pink lemonade has the right colors of yellow and pink as well as the strawberry shortcake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKYMpjh6M9I
Bottom line they can work with higher end sps.
 
ajcanale said:
There is a well established thread regarding success keeping SPS with LEDs here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2290355

This is my tank, all 100% grown out under Radion Pro's. Most were originally frags, a few came from a local reefer as small colonies which he grew under Radion G1's.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/fXvl46SlJdw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Click to expand...

Sorry for the slight hijack, but whats your Radion program look like? Can you post it?

thanks

-dan
 
:celeb2:
MisterP said:
3 LEDS for your 120 So let's go high end and get the good stuff...3x $650 for the Radions=$1950 then you need a controller right. Maybe you already have an Apex, we will leave that for easy argument. We are at$1950 for LEDS.

MH X2 20" Lumen brights will do same space let's get 250 W doesn't really matter yet. Those are $110 each. 2 Luma tek ballasts $140 each. 2 bulbs of your choice say $50 each.....That's a whopping $600

LEDS $1950
MH $600

Difference of $1350.... $100 annually for bulbs that payback as you mentioned for hardware is what again......my calculation says your 2-3 year payback is a dream. Much closer to 12-13 years with just hardware as you mentioned.

If we buy cheap Chinese LEDS then the payback is probably 2 years but you get what you pay for and Chinese junk is not going to grow like a MH.


Do you want more cost analysis?
Click to expand...
Don't most my users run some sort of supplements lights like T-5 or something. That is an added cost of a couple hundred for start up and another $50 or so per year for bulbs. What mh lamps are you getting for $50? Most of the ones I saw were $75+. So lamps would be closer to $200/ year. Part of my deal was I wanted a pendant since I have a rimless cube and did not want a hood. Those are over $400 just for the fixtures. If you have a hood you do not need nice looking fixture, but you did add the cost of a hood. There are so many variables it is not so cut and dry. I looked at lots of option when did this tank. MH/T-5 combo pendant, MH/T-5 in a hood, T-5 pendant, T-5 in a hood and LED pendant.
My pay back never came anywhere near 10 years.
 
You can't see nearly any other type of light when the MH are on, so most don't run them at the same time. Good MH need no supplement.

Even something like an AquaMedic 48" Pendant with 2x250W HQI and 2x54w T5 is probably about $575-625 with bulbs. Looks nice too.
 
He had converted his display and about half his prop to radions for the last year or so.

I was there a week ago. The only leds he is using now are RB. Believer in the neutral white vs cool white. Those are on the smaller backup prop system (with the hell flower). Main prop and display are 100% halide again.

Our tank is basically a custom rimless 40B (slightly different dimensions.) Tried it with 1 radion g2 pro with wide angles. Shadowing drove me nuts. Got an amazing deal on 2 usd g3 pros. 2 reefer/no kids house hold, so better half doesn't mind ;) Now running 3 radion pros with wide angles on the tank. Basically, the fixtures physically cover the entire surface. Still spots that are shadowed that annoy me. No complaints about color though. Going to switch to a super nova when they come out. 12" by 24" PANEL ftw.

IMHO the radions grow coral fine but the number of fixtures needed for shadowing free coverage is crazy.

Caveat -- newbie, but we have a bunch of higher end sps that we do OK with.


zangmann said:
Pretty sure he's running Radions, and on more than just a small frag tank:

10-12-2014:


09-09-2014:
Click to expand...
 
MisterP said:
3 LEDS for your 120 So let's go high end and get the good stuff...3x $650 for the Radions=$1950 then you need a controller right. Maybe you already have an Apex, we will leave that for easy argument. We are at$1950 for LEDS.

MH X2 20" Lumen brights will do same space let's get 250 W doesn't really matter yet. Those are $110 each. 2 Luma tek ballasts $140 each. 2 bulbs of your choice say $50 each.....That's a whopping $600

LEDS $1950
MH $600

Difference of $1350.... $100 annually for bulbs that payback as you mentioned for hardware is what again......my calculation says your 2-3 year payback is a dream. Much closer to 12-13 years with just hardware as you mentioned.

If we buy cheap Chinese LEDS then the payback is probably 2 years but you get what you pay for and Chinese junk is not going to grow like a MH.


Do you want more cost analysis?
Click to expand...

This will be the last reply I will make here to anything you say since you have continued to deem yourself so unformed and creating garbage figures from what you "think" makes sense.

I'll say 3 things:

1. Radions have build in controllers therefore have zero dependence on reef controllers. 120 would need 2, not 3.

2. People who are "serious" SPS collectors and connoisseurs are not paying near the attention to $$ that you seem to think. The amount spent on lighting is a mere fraction of what goes into entire systems.... I'm not sweating an extra grand. I believe I speak for many.

3.
SPS_Addiction said:
just trying to see how many serious SPS collectors out there are using LED's in their display tank. are you happy with your switch to LED's? Anyone go back to using hallides/T5 from LED's?
I'm using T5's right now and I've tried LED's a couple times now and have always gone back to either halide or T5 fixtures because I'm either unhappy with the puny spread of LED fixtures or color just doesn't look right to me. Some of the LED lit SPS tank that I've seen personally also just doesn't look very appealing.
Click to expand...

This is the original question. The person didn't say anything about costs or "energy effecienty"
 
MH are highly inefficient light producers. Most of the energy is converted into heat, not light.

The high number of MH users among USA reefers says a lot about how cheap energy still is in the USA. If you come to Europe you would see a very different picture. Here the controversy may be T5 vs LEDs, but the number of MH users is decreasing year after year simply because the energy cost is very high.

Concerning whether you can grow colorful acroporids with LEDs…, well….some people still think Evolution is just a theory
 
ajcanale said:
2. People who are "serious" SPS collectors and connoisseurs are not paying near the attention to $$ that you seem to think. The amount spent on lighting is a mere fraction of what goes into entire systems.... I'm not sweating an extra grand. I believe I speak for many."
Click to expand...

+1 this is so underestimated by reefkeepers and is probally the most important part of setting up a reeftank. Lighting is key and I tried lots of different lighting.
Love my leds and will never go back.
 
ajcanale said:
This will be the last reply I will make here to anything you say since you have continued to deem yourself so unformed and creating garbage figures from what you "think" makes sense.

I'll say 3 things:

1. Radions have build in controllers therefore have zero dependence on reef controllers. 120 would need 2, not 3.

2. People who are "serious" SPS collectors and connoisseurs are not paying near the attention to $$ that you seem to think. The amount spent on lighting is a mere fraction of what goes into entire systems.... I'm not sweating an extra grand. I believe I speak for many.

3.

This is the original question. The person didn't say anything about costs or "energy effecienty"
Click to expand...


How do you think I am uninformed. Every figure I have put out there is real world read through my cost analysis and examples on any lighting from the Lumenbrights to the first examples with halides, chillers and T5s. I am definitely informed.

I am simply remarking to people that think LEDs run on magic dust and consume no energy and are basically fan boys.

I run a Hydra 52 remember and they do require controllers or a WiFi " director " which costs extra.

Please let me know exactly how I am wrong here on startup cost. That is the biggest drawback that everyone forgets.

Even go to a nice Reefbrite MH LED fixture for about $400 each and these Radions are still $200+ more per light and you'll need more of them.

I'm passionate about this because so many people just think oh LEDs are a one time purchase and they run on fairy dust and consume no energy. LEDS have a 10 year usable life max so they still die if you will. The first law of thermodynamics tells you nothing is free in this world.

Sit down and put your pencil on a piece of paper and do some cost analysis.

Once again as I have said previously I think LEDS grow coral, definitely work fine for small areas, color may leave something to be desired for myself and many others, some people are OK with them and that's fine. But don't tell me I'm uninformed because that is completely off base.

I think I've given some of the best info on here. Some may not like it but its pretty dang accurate.

And by the way no hard feelings as that seems to be where you are headed

But then again people get hot when you start pointing out truths that they don't like.

Science seeks the truth no matter how ugly.

Believers and fanboys believe what they believe no matter the evidence.

PS....the guys example was 3 units on a 120 so you are saying 2 because that's what you think makes sense. Again, though I doubt that would cover it even so our payback comes down to 5-6 years.
 
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I am the one that originally brought up cost, but it was and is just one factor of many. Initial cost and operational costs are factors and the costs go farther than just the fixtures and their direct operational costs. There is the evap rate with each, chiller and its operational cost, dwelling mechanical cost and its increased operation, wear and tear on dwelling mechanical, chiller replacement, and I am sure there are others.

IMO, the actual cost is probably not the highest factor right now for a U.S. user when we are spending such high amounts for the corals themselves. I also believe that LED's will be more mainline in several years when they have evolved s not and out energy costs approach those of Europe, and they will because of our aging infrastructure.

I also did not see anywhere here where anyone said anything about fairy dust or that electrical cost alone was he driver. It certainly was not mine as I was full LED and switched to LED/MH combo. The other factors, including how my corals looked caused me to go back to full LED. I will say that Zi believe the growth rate is slower, but I don't consider that s bad thing based on my own personal preferences. That being said, I have several pieces that I added to my tank about 6 weeks ago that have started encrusting the rock they were placed on, about 1/2 inch growth all around the bottom. My purple Monti's cap looked crappy under MH but looks amazing under the LED's after two months.

I am not going back to MH, but I might consider supplementing with T5 only because it is s way to bridge to where I ultimately end up with my Hydra settings.
 
MisterP said:
How do you think I am uninformed. Every figure I have put out there is real world read through my cost analysis and examples on any lighting from the Lumenbrights to the first examples with halides, chillers and T5s. I am definitely informed.

I am simply remarking to people that think LEDs run on magic dust and consume no energy and are basically fan boys.

I run a Hydra 52 remember and they do require controllers or a WiFi " director " which costs extra.

Please let me know exactly how I am wrong here on startup cost. That is the biggest drawback that everyone forgets.

Even go to a nice Reefbrite MH LED fixture for about $400 each and these Radions are still $200+ more per light and you'll need more of them.

I'm passionate about this because so many people just think oh LEDs are a one time purchase and they run on fairy dust and consume no energy. LEDS have a 10 year usable life max so they still die if you will. The first law of thermodynamics tells you nothing is free in this world.

Sit down and put your pencil on a piece of paper and do some cost analysis.

Once again as I have said previously I think LEDS grow coral, definitely work fine for small areas, color may leave something to be desired for myself and many others, some people are OK with them and that's fine. But don't tell me I'm uninformed because that is completely off base.

I think I've given some of the best info on here. Some may not like it but its pretty dang accurate.

And by the way no hard feelings as that seems to be where you are headed

But then again people get hot when you start pointing out truths that they don't like.

Science seeks the truth no matter how ugly.

Believers and fanboys believe what they believe no matter the evidence.

PS....the guys example was 3 units on a 120 so you are saying 2 because that's what you think makes sense. Again, though I doubt that would cover it even so our payback comes down to 5-6 years.
Click to expand...

Your start up cost are not wrong, just not complete. The fixture you used in your cost requires a hood or something to hang it in. You also did not include fans and what not. When you get all the bits included the difference is not near what you are coming up with. I did the breakdown last year. Unfortunately it was on scratch paper and not a spread sheet. If the LED vs MH payback would have been the numbers you are coming up with I would not have gone LED.

I am not saying this as an LED fan boy. I think LEDs are good lights, and so are MH and T-5. They all have a manner in which they operate that needs to be understood. I also think there is a lot of emotional misinformation from both sides. People will tend to defend their purchase/opinion.
 
I am the one that originally brought up cost, but it was and is just one factor of many. Initial cost and operational costs are factors and the costs go farther than just the fixtures and their direct operational costs. The above analysis is far from complete and too vanilla. There is the evap rate with each, chiller and its operational cost, dwelling mechanical cost and its increased operation, wear and tear on dwelling mechanical, chiller replacement, and I am sure there are others. I did not like the fact that the room my tanks are located in was just plain hot with MH, when other parts of the same zone in my house were cool. It makes it hard to spend time in the living room when it is warmer than the rest of the house. It would cause the AC to run far more int he summer and make other parts of the house downright frigid. The winter is somewhat worse, with the living room pleasant, but the rest of the house in that zone (kitchen, family room, office, laundry room, dining room) a freezer because the heat won't kick in. So, there is more than cost to consider and everyone's priorities are different. Cost is but one of many factors and should be considered independently by each user.

IMO, the actual cost is probably not the highest factor right now for a U.S. user when we are spending such high amounts for the corals themselves. I also believe that LED's will be more mainline in several years when they have evolved and our energy costs approach those of Europe, and they will because of our aging infrastructure.

I also did not see anywhere here where anyone said anything about fairy dust or that electrical cost alone was he driver. It certainly was not mine as I was full LED and switched to LED/MH combo. The other factors, including how my corals looked caused me to go back to full LED. I will say that I believe the growth rate is slower, but I don't consider that s bad thing based on my own personal preferences. That being said, I have several pieces that I added to my tank about 6 weeks ago that have started encrusting the rock they were placed on, about 1/2 inch growth all around the bottom/perimeter. My purple Monti cap looked crappy under MH but looks amazing under the LED's after two months. It has never looked better. My Tubs Monti is the same as is my pink/red Cap. The frag of green slimer I got from Copps just 6 weeks ago has now encrusted over the plug and grown about 1/4" longer. Another frag I got from Copps had a branch broken off. Where that break occurred, I now have a 1/4" stub growing out. Keep in mind, these are brand new corals to my system showing this growth. Growth might be a much larger factor for someone who sells frags for income. I like slow to moderate growth. I had to basically restart my tanks a few months ago because I had Pocillopora and Seriatopora taking over my entire tanks.

I am not going back to MH, but I might consider supplementing with T5 only because it is a way to bridge to where I ultimately end up with my Hydra settings.

LED's are relatively new and evolving quite quickly. Each evolution requires time to digest given their adjustability and, in turn, results from those adjustments need time to be evaluated. I personally do not think we are at a point where many can show a full tank of high end SPS grown out under LED's in a stable setting environment. I am not sure we are at a point yet where the question/request can be answered/responded to.

I would not classify myself as an "LED fanboy", whatever that means, as I have pretty much all the lighting options sitting in my garage (spare LED units, T5 ballasts/setups minus the bulbs, DE MH fixtures, 250/400 watt MH ballasts, MH bulbs, etc). I would consider myself someone who wants to see if LED can work for me because I do not like to downside effects of MH.
 
LEDS grow coral we have established that. My biggest 3 issues with them is ...

Coverage/shadowing
Startup cost
Color rendition


LEds grow coral...I'll say that again. You guys are misinterpreting me.

I'm not speaking to anyone in general saying fanboys.

You guys are calling me biased when I have used many lights as well.

Then you want to discuss adding a few $20 fans?....that my friends is a drop in the ocean.

I could spend hours going over cost analysis and get as detailed as any of you want.
 
I think the designs are going to migrate back towards panels, away from clusters....

It is the only way I can figure out that the shadowing issue will be lessened.

Was really happy to read through this thread. Around here I talk about the shadowing all the time but people think I am nuts.
 
Quite honestly, I probably have so many units over my tank that I do not notice any material shadowing. With five units over a 6' tank, I am pretty covered.
All that really says is that start-up cost was less of a consideration for me that other factors.

What I would really like to see is a panel that was primarily LED with a couple T5's integrated into it rather than a cluster approach.

And Larcat, you are in this hobby. You ARE NUTS. We all are.
 
Cost is a factor if you really want to go high end such as radions or hydra 52. Very nice lights no doubt but if in a budget you can get fixtures like the superlux that I am using for 1/3 the cost, and get great results.

Off topic...Vegas Mike you probably dont remember me but you sold me a cherry wood stand and canopy back in day in Vegas (2003-04). You had the most impressive set up Ive seen in person. I'm glad you're still in the game.
 
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