Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

ghostman said:
I would hope not Wazzel. I think everyone here has tried LEDs and just have a different preference. I am partial to the GHL Mitra lamps, and have a Kessil over a softie tank :) what I gather from the information here is that MH certainly isn't dead from the advent of LEDs, and many experienced reefers prefer the look and growth of MH. Whatever works for you is great :)
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I think there is some "it did not live up to expectations" bashing. Mh and T-5 are still great chooses for lighting a reef tank. If I were setting up another tank I would redo my selection process to see if LED would be the correct choice again. It might or might not depending on what criteria and set up as important.
 
doctorwhoreefer said:
Pretty much. But it could be a combination solution, now that just about every part of the spectrum has it's own led.

I was convinced with a white+blue setup adding the 403nm exotics. Truly awesome coloration.. My first thought was, "hooray for not having to drool anymore about mh coloration!"
:)
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If the white, blue, and 403nm LEDs gave truly awesome coloration, then why did you replace them with Radions? Would you be opposed to showing a picture of your tank under such a setup to bolster your argument? I think T5s work better than LEDs, I've had all three technologies and beyond all the data, its my opinion. Here are pictures of my tank to show that I have a reason to believe that:
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Many here who defend LED talk about how they started with X unit, but now are using Y unit, many times in less than 2 years. They say that the new Y unit has figured it all out! In my mind they already have replaced one failed LED system and have completely invalidated any claim to be saving money. Replacing bulbs is always cheaper than replacing fixtures...
 
VegasMike said:
If my LED's don't work out for me over the next year, I will be going T5. I will not go back to MH due to the heat.
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This is one of the arguments for LED that actually makes sense to me. For some people the heat from MH is the enemy, some people (like me) it is their best friend! When I ran my GHL Mitras my heaters (1000 watts worth) were on almost constantly to keep my tank above 77. With MH, my tank runs from 77 to 80 on any given day and my heaters barely ever run.

If you are running large chillers to cool the tank and are looking to run a more power conscious setup, then LEDs are an option, but as we have discussed, there are trade offs. To some people those trade offs are worth it. And there is nothing wrong with that! :)

Don
 
jda said:
Anybody see Sanjay at MACNA? Hardly a ringing endorsement for LED. He said that there was no efficiency and that he needed 3 panels to replace a single 400W MH and the growth still was not as good. He would not even touch of color, except for privately. The only efficiency that he saw was if you could avoid running a chiller a lot. I think that he had Radion Pros, but I don't remember that well.

His speech was one of the reasons that many of the locals (since MACNA was local) have started to move to MH at a big pace.

BTW - I can grow coral with LED, and did. It just was not as good - nowhere near as good.

BTW2 - I love it how slight spectrum shift in a MH bulb over 2 years is a huge negative, but changing the spectrum all the time with a LED is a huge benefit.
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This^^^. While not claiming to be an expert, I know what I see in MY tank and that is best with a MH. Thank you for referring to his speech, I wasn't here but I know his stance on MH vs LED and for all intensive purposes, I would say we consider him to be a leader on the forefront of light as it pertains to our tanks. I wish he would poke his head in and comment here....

Corey
 
I've finally read this entire post and most of it has been a great read. I'm fairly new to the hobby (12 months-ish), but being a professor (in a science department) makes it hard to resist putting in my $0.02 (if they are even worth that much).

I've only used T5/LED combos and grown relatively few corals. But I've taken a large number of physics/optics courses (although my Ph.D. is in chemistry) and know enough to post about the different light sources. Here are my random thoughts:

1) No one can (should) argue MH is not ideal in terms of spectrum (and PAR). The proof is in the pudding. I've seen enough MH tanks (in person and online) to know MH is the real deal. That said, my wife won't let me put a MH in the house (she's also a scientist and very concerned about fires (well, she's "concerned" in general about most of my hobbies).

2) The LED fanatics suggest that if you matched the spectrum to, say, a 20k radium, LEDs work work well. I'd give a non-answer to that, because no commercial LED (that I know of and I've done a fair amount of research on this topic) have a spectrum similar to MH. Many LEDs match the look of MHs (and some like BuildMyLED can match it quite well). But the spectrum is WAY off. If you look at the BML 20k strip that is almost a perfect visual match, the spectrum is almost all blue/cool whites. It looks right, but that's as far as you go.

3) Related to number 2 above: CIE kelvin values are worthless for LEDs. They match the look, but say zero about the spectrum or bulb makeup. Hearing discussion of Radion programs based on the CIE K makes me shiver (not in a good way).

4) Also related to number 2 above: LEDs like the Radion are misused (in a way). The focus is on the look and not the spectrum (but really, how can a user reasonably get a light spectrum without dropping serious cash? -- they cannot). In general, I'd say user customizable fixtures (color-wise) are a bad idea.

5) LEDs are point sources (as has been mentioned many times over). The optics are getting there, but not there yet. Worse is the puck style (compared to strip style) that is often required for blending the full spectrum lights. You just end up with hot spots throughout the tank.

6) Dimming white LEDs changes the spectral output. Makes educated guesses at the spectrum especially difficult because it changes as you change the power.

So, I do think it should be possible to make an LED fixture that works as well as MH. But we need advances in optics (to blend disparate colors without clustering the LEDs on top of one another) mostly. And it's most likely that LEDs that grow well will look super ugly to our eyes. But it should be possible in due course.

I love BuildMyLEDs (DIY without having to do anything (except pay)) and I have been playing around with making custom BML strips (don't tell my wife, but I have 5 custom strips and plan on getting more soon). I love how corals look under LED, but I would never trust LED alone to grow and color the corals. It'll be some time before I give up my T5s (I use Giesmann Midday for growth).

Anyway, that's my $0.02, for what it's worth.
 
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doctorwhoreefer said:
You can't make a general statement like all leds are the same, they're not.
That's not an answer to my question. That's the answer YOU think it should be, but again not all leds are the same, period.

So, anyone else care to snuff my "ignorance" out on my question?
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Actually, considering there are only a handful manufacturers of LEDs used in the commercial fixtures we see for sale, yes, all LEDs are the same. And since they all pick the worst possible bins for coloring up a reef tank (since they have better numbers on paper), what little difference there is among manufacturers disappears rather quickly. So, yes, all LEDs are the same. :lol:


doctorwhoreefer said:
Well sorry guys, seems nobody wants to answer the one single question I have.

I know you just don't want to say the truth about it.

But I think I've stayed long enough, group mentalities are what's wrong with the hobby, not led's.

Or how about scratch every single thing I've said, let's pretend I just entered the conversation!

Hey guys! I see metal halides and t5's are being compared to led's.
How is it possible that led's can grow some of the spectacular tanks I've seen on the internet that rival metal halides and t5's if led's don't work?

*edit
On second thought, whatever lol...

You guys want to rant and rave like you're experts on the areas of lighting, but you can't answer my one simple question. You've avoided it for several pages.

For those who are actually curious about the differences, I hope there's no hard feelings.
The others who are talking out their wazoo and obviously biased, well, good luck with your tanks, it's about the creatures after all and not what you prefer for lighting. I know metal halides and t5's work just fine, but please don't discount everyone so rudely that shows an interest in newer technologies that are progressing quite nicely. That's just bigotry. :)
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It isn't that nobody wants to answer your question. It's that it is a silly question that has no bearing on the discussion. Yes, if MH and LED put out the same exact spectrum, and have the same exact light spread, then yes, they are fully equal. The question is silly, because they are two light sources with difference spectral outputs and light spread.

LEDs work. No one will argue they don't. The question in this thread is whether they work as well as MH for a rather specific portion of the hobby. For me personally, I run a soft coral tank so I could (and have) light the tank with incandescent light and still see growth (color would be there too...somewhere...through the haze of yellow...). For those running high-end SPS tanks, where color is obsessively watched and the slightest change is reason to panic, things get a little more tricky.

doctorwhoreefer said:
I am NOT denying led spectrums are different. But you CAN make different led's.
What happens when you combine red, blue, and green?
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You get red, blue and green. Is this supposed to be a trick question?
 
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All this discussion has brought up a question for me. If MH provides the fuel for color, how many hours a day would one need to run a Halide light with a full led system to just give the corals a punch to polish the colors.?
 
v10king said:
Love the tank, I actually just copied your recommendations for bulb setup on the T5 thread. I love the look and corals are definitely responding and coloring up more and more. T5's rock for sure!
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Thanks very much, I like to tinker to further tweak the color of the corals, and so I continue to try new combinations:)
 
mhucasey said:
If the white, blue, and 403nm LEDs gave truly awesome coloration, then why did you replace them with Radions? Would you be opposed to showing a picture of your tank under such a setup to bolster your argument? I think T5s work better than LEDs, I've had all three technologies and beyond all the data, its my opinion. Here are pictures of my tank to show that I have a reason to believe that:




Many here who defend LED talk about how they started with X unit, but now are using Y unit, many times in less than 2 years. They say that the new Y unit has figured it all out! In my mind they already have replaced one failed LED system and have completely invalidated any claim to be saving money. Replacing bulbs is always cheaper than replacing fixtures...
Click to expand...

Awesome tank! Great colors! Makes me think an ATI fixture could be in my future.
 
power boat jim said:
All this discussion has brought up a question for me. If MH provides the fuel for color, how many hours a day would one need to run a Halide light with a full led system to just give the corals a punch to polish the colors.?
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I bet you could get away with 4 hours a day, but that's just a wild guess. I do remember a tank though that had LEDs and ran T5s for 4 hours a day and it was spectacular. I think it was a reefer in CT who was active on RC and may still be.
 
I was going to say 6, but 4 might be OK. I guess that it depends on if you are looking to fill spectrum gaps, or quit using the white LEDs. If you want to replace the white LEDs, then 6 might be better. If you are into just filling some spectrum gaps, then anything is probably better than nothing.
 
I have a satellite tank plumbed in to the system, its 11 gallons. I used to throw frags in there I couldn't bear to part with, and naughty fish. A couple of months ago I completely cleaned it out to put several frags of the best corals in there.

In doing so I looked around a lot for an LED fixture that had the right spread and such. I was surprised how expensive what I was looking for was - minimum of 200 bucks for what I would be happy with(no disco fixtures). While looking, I thought "Why not a halide?"

So I ended up finding a really nice small halide fixture that cost me 70 bucks and a 49 dollar Ushio 20K bulb. Its pretty amazing how well the frags are encrusting with 6 hours of the lil' halide over it. I can compare the same corals under both sources of light:)
 
I hate it when work gets in the way of reef stuff! I can't believe all of the posts from today....I have some catching up to do.
 
power boat jim said:
All this discussion has brought up a question for me. If MH provides the fuel for color, how many hours a day would one need to run a Halide light with a full led system to just give the corals a punch to polish the colors.?
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Jim, i think we could get by with 6 hours or so. that is about the peak amount of hours the reefs get. anything more than that is usually for our viewing pleasure only. which is funny to say, because that is the main reason I would want LEDs. I want to increase my viewing time. I currently run my lights about 7 hours a day and want to increase it. But due to heat and the size of my system in my apartment, its not as easy as I would like.


corey
 
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