Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[karimwassef]

It doesn't show up in pics, but here you go

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/2CF7A78E-30D7-4C0C-B31F-53916517FFED_zpsz9loxyud.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/2CF7A78E-30D7-4C0C-B31F-53916517FFED_zpsz9loxyud.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2CF7A78E-30D7-4C0C-B31F-53916517FFED_zpsz9loxyud.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4411BB3D-2F39-4FE8-8E9C-363FDFC6AE8D_zps0gpamiir.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4411BB3D-2F39-4FE8-8E9C-363FDFC6AE8D_zps0gpamiir.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4411BB3D-2F39-4FE8-8E9C-363FDFC6AE8D_zps0gpamiir.jpg"/></a>

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<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1A883561-D096-48E0-9133-28706C000266_zpsw7fii8xr.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1A883561-D096-48E0-9133-28706C000266_zpsw7fii8xr.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1A883561-D096-48E0-9133-28706C000266_zpsw7fii8xr.jpg"/></a>


<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/C0F6448D-8D9C-4DC5-8FE8-BB274860247C_zpssv8dsv35.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/C0F6448D-8D9C-4DC5-8FE8-BB274860247C_zpssv8dsv35.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo C0F6448D-8D9C-4DC5-8FE8-BB274860247C_zpssv8dsv35.jpg"/></a>

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<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/87C6BFFD-4813-4484-BBE0-4B2CE5EAEF4A_zpszrmj5cam.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/87C6BFFD-4813-4484-BBE0-4B2CE5EAEF4A_zpszrmj5cam.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 87C6BFFD-4813-4484-BBE0-4B2CE5EAEF4A_zpszrmj5cam.jpg"/></a>

 

[karimwassef]

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<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/43B4613F-03CF-4CC8-9E4C-2FB4F4E9DCD3_zpslouxbzlm.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/43B4613F-03CF-4CC8-9E4C-2FB4F4E9DCD3_zpslouxbzlm.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 43B4613F-03CF-4CC8-9E4C-2FB4F4E9DCD3_zpslouxbzlm.jpg"/></a>

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When it's on with MH...

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/6AFD0E95-C3B5-4337-956F-56EA64F66C23_zpsmzhrdsud.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/6AFD0E95-C3B5-4337-956F-56EA64F66C23_zpsmzhrdsud.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6AFD0E95-C3B5-4337-956F-56EA64F66C23_zpsmzhrdsud.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/B8E515EF-78BE-49D3-8C65-0809A95F1F53_zpsua9apkip.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/B8E515EF-78BE-49D3-8C65-0809A95F1F53_zpsua9apkip.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo B8E515EF-78BE-49D3-8C65-0809A95F1F53_zpsua9apkip.jpg"/></a>

and just UV again, bigger tank shots

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/55B6D729-3303-46CA-8934-DD6FD7CCE057_zpssh3unazv.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/55B6D729-3303-46CA-8934-DD6FD7CCE057_zpssh3unazv.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 55B6D729-3303-46CA-8934-DD6FD7CCE057_zpssh3unazv.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/811199E3-85B0-447F-9E75-5ABC5D4F726B_zpsaghcdnv2.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/811199E3-85B0-447F-9E75-5ABC5D4F726B_zpsaghcdnv2.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 811199E3-85B0-447F-9E75-5ABC5D4F726B_zpsaghcdnv2.jpg"/></a>

 

[karimwassef]

With 450nm and 395nm on too

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<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/DBF6A730-C2D1-4E93-AF43-545B8C09CEED_zpsvhudsnkz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/DBF6A730-C2D1-4E93-AF43-545B8C09CEED_zpsvhudsnkz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DBF6A730-C2D1-4E93-AF43-545B8C09CEED_zpsvhudsnkz.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/F1A0685C-88D9-4F88-9B6B-8669035C02D0_zpssbz4e0mn.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/F1A0685C-88D9-4F88-9B6B-8669035C02D0_zpssbz4e0mn.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo F1A0685C-88D9-4F88-9B6B-8669035C02D0_zpssbz4e0mn.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/67E7E18F-9EDD-4E17-BA8D-F85984D0B83D_zpsyzyvd2nk.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/67E7E18F-9EDD-4E17-BA8D-F85984D0B83D_zpsyzyvd2nk.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 67E7E18F-9EDD-4E17-BA8D-F85984D0B83D_zpsyzyvd2nk.jpg"/></a>

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[karimwassef]

you can mix and match to have nearly any effect you want with LEDs.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/95D9E5E9-81A0-4410-860A-0816E9DBDDC1_zpsshwecynq.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/95D9E5E9-81A0-4410-860A-0816E9DBDDC1_zpsshwecynq.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 95D9E5E9-81A0-4410-860A-0816E9DBDDC1_zpsshwecynq.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/50C1C992-D413-4C88-96D2-61166C3CB723_zps8nag3eln.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/50C1C992-D413-4C88-96D2-61166C3CB723_zps8nag3eln.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 50C1C992-D413-4C88-96D2-61166C3CB723_zps8nag3eln.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1359E28F-6925-4E5C-B94C-6665CF0E4965_zpsplsbwmdv.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1359E28F-6925-4E5C-B94C-6665CF0E4965_zpsplsbwmdv.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1359E28F-6925-4E5C-B94C-6665CF0E4965_zpsplsbwmdv.jpg"/></a>

 

[Aqualund]

you can mix and match to have nearly any effect you want with LEDs.

Yes you can...but the "nearly" doesnt go far enough in my humble opinion. Im thinking we need a spread from 365 up to 430, so like using a 365 base with a phosphor emitted range covering all frequencies up to 430, not just discrete ones at specified frequencies.

 

[oreo57]

wow...



I don't know what else to say.

not sure about what you are trying to "argue" about??
My point was:
1)Nobody is doping UV based LEDs to create "white"
2)Historically UVLED had a short lifespan, countered by using glass instead of epoxy lenses. i'm not convinced this is completely "fixed"...personal opinion.
Not sure "purple" or fake UV are any better, esp. at the low ranges (410nm ect.)
3)Companies do as they see fit to match whatever market they want.
4)" common markets" have little need to use UV base emitters for white. Royal blue and violet are "good enough". Currently nobody will build a UV based white for a teeny tiny market such as this.. RB currently rules the day.
May be more status quo than technical.
Too bad though.
5)Fact is we can get UV chips, use them, and even have multiple (though tight) spectrum chips is not in question..and at a fair price though quality is still questionable, as much as any "color"
I have a box of burnt out high K 3W whites that lasted a very short time (year plus) but cost pennies on a dollar compared to "good" chips. Casual observation.
6) Why Yuji sticks w/ 1/2 emitters is a ????, yes other bases are available.

Can't find anything of mine that I disagree w/ you about really...

 

[oreo57]

Yes you can...but the "nearly" doesnt go far enough in my humble opinion. Im thinking we need a spread from 365 up to 430, so like using a 365 base with a phosphor emitted range covering all frequencies up to 430, not just discrete ones at specified frequencies.

That is what they "found" w/ hort. LEDs.. No need to do rb /deep red when one can take a rb and add broad spectrum deep red phosphors, covering a wide swath of the red spectrum from near IR to orange..
no data on effectiveness that I know of.
FUNNY thing is they are sold as "full spectrum" LED's..

One thing though, on a general level phosphor decay over time is still an issue, not so much w/ discreet color LEDs..
How much of an issue????

There seem to be tons of solutions to tons of "problems" (defined and undefined) that just don't get done for one reason or another.. "sigh" human nature..

 

[karimwassef]

horticulture avoids UV. It's counterproductive for them.

UV is important for coral coloration and pigmentation. Different UVs have different impact.

I'm not arguing against the lack of their inclusion in white LEDs. Just that UV LEDs are common and easily used in any design.

 

[Aqualund]

horticulture avoids UV. It's counterproductive for them.

UV is important for coral coloration and pigmentation. Different UVs have different impact.

I'm not arguing against the lack of their inclusion in white LEDs. Just that UV LEDs are common and easily used in any design.

Just to be clear, are you completely discounting the role of Chlorophyll A in SPS photosynthesis? If so, what is the basis of your opinion...do you have a study or a paper that explains this?

I also question your horticulture reference in that they avoid it because it's counterproductive. Maybe someone should tell GE?

http://www.gereports.com/post/91250246340/lettuce-see-the-future-led-lighting-helps-farming/

 

[gus6464]

horticulture avoids UV. It's counterproductive for them.

UV is important for coral coloration and pigmentation. Different UVs have different impact.

I'm not arguing against the lack of their inclusion in white LEDs. Just that UV LEDs are common and easily used in any design.

Horticulture avoids violet because red diodes are much cheaper and they don't have to worry about visual aesthetics. That's it. Watt for watt violet LEDs produce more chlorophyll A PUR than red but red is a lot cheaper.

 

[Aqualund]

Horticulture avoids violet because red diodes are much cheaper and they don't have to worry about visual aesthetics. That's it. Watt for watt violet LEDs produce more chlorophyll A PUR than red but red is a lot cheaper.

There are also effects with different spectrum of light with regards to whether the flower will flower or not, or whether they want it to.

So yet another notch in the ole "spectrum matters" belt.

Source: Pot growers

 

[karimwassef]

Just to be clear, are you completely discounting the role of Chlorophyll A in SPS photosynthesis? If so, what is the basis of your opinion...do you have a study or a paper that explains this?

I also question your horticulture reference in that they avoid it because it's counterproductive. Maybe someone should tell GE?

http://www.gereports.com/post/91250246340/lettuce-see-the-future-led-lighting-helps-farming/

where did I discount anything in SPS photosynthesis?

I said horticulture avoid UV, not LED.

 

[karimwassef]

my personal experience with UV for plants is my current design for a greenhouse. I've been asking multiple suppliers to provide non-UV blocking panels.

Unanimously, ALL rejected my request saying that no one in horticulture intentionally includes UV due its detrimental impact on plant growth.

They could all be lying, but since I'm willing to pay extra - I don't see why they would.

I finally found ONE source that disagreed with this and I followed it to a special laminate that allows UV in

http://glasslaminatingsolutions.kur...l-garden-uses-special-uv-transmissible-glass/

Here's my thread on the topic.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2537919

and here is the high UV transmission laminate material called "SentryGlas N-UV" from Dupont

http://glasslaminatingsolutions.kura...att_SG_NUV.pdf

http://glasslaminatingsolutions.kura...tryglasr-n-uv/

http://www.newglasstech.com/download...20brochure.pdf

http://www.vitrum.ca/cms/wp-content/...yglas_plus.pdf

http://www.viracon.com/pdf/ProductGuide.pdf

 

[Aqualund]

where did I discount anything in SPS photosynthesis?

I said horticulture avoid UV, not LED.

Sorry, I thought by your statement that you were inferring that UV is only used for coral pigmentation and coloration.

 

[oreo57]

my personal experience with UV for plants is my current design for a greenhouse. I've been asking multiple suppliers to provide non-UV blocking panels.

Unanimously, ALL rejected my request saying that no one in horticulture intentionally includes UV due its detrimental impact on plant growth.

I finally found ONE source that disagreed with this and I followed it to a special laminate that allows UV in

Personally, you are making this a bit too simplistic. The 100% UV state was for making the environment as "natural" as possible..
That does not exactly translate to "optimum" growing conditions..
Best I can see on a very short peek is 1)UV may inhibit some pathogens 2)UV may stimulate some flowering 3)May even increase some "important" chemical production.
BUT overall health from a production standpoint is questionable, not to mention the health of equip. and workers...

Though not all the plant responses demonstrated as the result of UV radiation are considered as damaging or disadvantageous for the plant; the majority of evidence indicates that UV irradiation is usually detrimental, particularly UV-B irradiation (Caldwell, 1971). In this section a summary of the UV-B effects on crops from the literature will be presented. The growth of many plant species is reduced by enhanced levels of UV-B radiation (Teramura et al., 1989).

http://uvb.nrel.colostate.edu/UVB/uvb_agagrresearch.jsf

Uv is like anything, more than one sided..

With enhanced UV-B radiation photosynthesis decreases, plant height and leaf area decrease, dry matter production, yield and quality reduces in many crops. In the study conducted by Tevini et al. (1991b) plant height, leaf area, and the dry weight of sunflower, corn, and rye seedlings were significantly reduced with enhanced UV-B radiation. Rice is among the most important crop plants in the world. Sixteen rice cultivars from several different geographical regions were grown in greenhouses with supplemental levels of UV-B radiation (Teramura et al., 1991). Alterations in biomass, morphology, and maximum photosynthesis were determined. Approximately one-third of all cultivars tested showed a statistically significant decrease in total biomass with increased UV-B radiation.

since "sunburning" anything seems to increase pigment production for survival, well.................
BUT as most things conflicting info abounds..:

In conclusion, the UV-absorbing films tested can effectively reduce aphid abundance and spread of winged forms inside the greenhouse and protect lettuce plants from aphid infestation. Also, these films proved to be very useful in reducing the spread of aphid and thrip-transmitted virus diseases infecting lettuce.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...pr4YuReeQ&sig2=ZxkrPjUmyNwIWIOI3SYPGA&cad=rja

In Sweden, the majority of vegetable crop plants is produced in greenhouses, in which the UV component of sunlight is lacking. This results in stragglier more vulnerable plants with lower nutritional value. Low doses of supplementary ultraviolet light can compensate for this by regulating plant morphogenesis and metabolism via dedicated UV-B photoreceptors.

https://www.oru.se/english/research/research-projects/rp/?rdb=p1298

funny huh..

http://www.ciesin.columbia.edu/docs/011-467/011-467.html

 

[power boat jim]

This thread has morphed into a highly technical dicussion of LED development and manufacture and now its uses in agriculture. Maybe its time to put some of this info under a seperate LED thread and put a sticky next to it to use for easy future reference.

There is a ton of info here that will be lost and would may be better served as a referece rather then under a discussion of going back to MH from LED thread. Just a thought.

 

[oreo57]

This thread has morphed into a highly technical discussion of LED development and manufacture and now its uses in agriculture. Maybe its time to put some of this info under a separate LED thread and put a sticky next to it to use for easy future reference.

There is a ton of info here that will be lost and would may be better served as a referece rather then under a discussion of going back to MH from LED thread. Just a thought.

Agreed (and apologize, just my nature), but it was just a temporary diversion..after 221 pages of.........

but it does have a moderate relationship i.e certain LED "lack" of certain spectral components in comparison to other light sources and why someone might want to switch in either direction....

 

[DavidinGA]

Hello all, I have a 125gal reef tank with 250W Radiums on it, a little frag tank with a 250W Ushio 20k and a 60 gal frag tank with an ecotech Radion on one side and a DIY Rapid LED set up on the other side. I can't help but notice the corals and the tank just looks better under the Halides. I have never tried the ATI power Module, and am half way thinking about replacing the LED's with the power module, but then I think maybe jsut put 2 more radiums on there instead. am I crazy for wanting to replace the LED's or have any of you noticed anything similar?

I have been running leds for 3 years now and I'm considering going back to MH's myself.

My only issue with led's is growth. It seems some sps do ok, but most grow much much slower under leds.

On the flip side the options for MH have dwindled considerably now where their aren't a lot of configuration options available (or at least not like there used to be).



(getting this thread back on track....)

 

[karimwassef]

Glad I could contribute to the diversion

 

[Jeremy257]

I have a 37 gallon cube. Been up and running four a couple years with LED.. LPS was fine.. a few months back I started getting SPS fever.. growth sucks... started researching.. I'm about to upgrade to a much bigger tank (225g).. SPS only. I want to do it right. I started researching. I'm sure it may have already been pointed out somewhere in this enormous thread.. A few days ago I stumbled across an article published in January of this year.

I think we can all agree that Sanjay Joshi knows more than most when it comes to keeping a reef tank and especially lighting one. He had experimented over the years with LEDs over his smaller tanks. 2 years ago he replaced 3 400w MH over his 500g tank with 8, yes 8 Radion Pros. Right from the start.. cost is ridiculous, energy savings is negligible.

Sanjay is an expert, he utilized arguably the best LED tech at the time (and most expensive) and he can get about 80% the growth of his MH setup with most corals.. and some species he points out.. not even close to the growth of MH.

https://www.reefs.com/blog/2016/01/05/leds-500-gallon-reef/

If that's the best that Sanjay can get out of LED with his knowledge and $6k of top tech lighting I'm sure not going to bother with it. I'm going MH on the new tank for at least the first couple of years until I have a thriving reef.

I guess people need to decide what their goals are. I want to grow SPS frags into colonies as fast as I can and I'm willing to sacrifice electricity, heat and bulb changes to get my reef grown. Maybe I'll look at LEDs again in a couple of years when I have a mature reef.