Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides
- Thread starter Goldcoastreefs
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karimwassef
Active member
disagree, photons are photons.. only quantities at certain levels changes..
It is practically impossible to have the exact same spectrum between MH's and LED's. Their creation is physically different .. but their "products" are identical..on a quantum level..
Like I said earlier Radions are not in any way "spectral equivalent" to any MH..
The lack of lower nm components (and some upper level components) makes them non-equvalent in a broad sense.. not just narrow bands..
If someone can prove to me a 660nm vibrating photon from an LED is "different" than a 660nm one from an LED I would like to see that...
Stranger things have happened though..
David Simmons-Duffin, Physicist
3k Views "¢ Upvoted by Steve Byrnes, Postdoc in Physics, Harvard University, Shreyes Seshasai, B.S. Physics from MIT, Debo Olaosebikan, Physics PhD. candidate at Cornell
David has 8 endorsements in Physics.
https://www.quora.com/If-you-have-t...d-that-mean-would-the-photon-have-more-energy
I meant that the fact that a "photon is a photon" doesn't matter. It's the effect of the photons on biological tissue that matters. Frequency and spectrum and angle do matter. I have a science degree too
oreo57
Well-known member
then you should agree w/ the fact that if I took hundreds of specifically phosphored LEDs whose photon output equaled a MH bulb and mounted them on a corn cob and stuck it in a MH reflector it would indeed be equal...I meant that the fact that a "photon is a photon" doesn't matter. It's the effect of the photons on biological tissue that matters. Frequency and spectrum and angle do matter. I have a science degree too
none of the above is "impossible" btw...
In other words it is NEVER LED's but their specturm and spacial placement..
sometimes your words don't quite sound that way. My mistake..
But:
Photons from LED or MH or the sun for that matter.. makes no difference.. Statement makes no sense as I'm understanding it..
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Trouble with that 'study', and I'm sure SJ would agree, is that it's a sample size of one. As such, it has no statistical significance at all and is no more useful than anything you or I would observe on our own tanks. Whether LED is better, or T5 better or MH better is almost academic as all three can be made to work perfectly satisfyingly in most implementations.
As I noted earlier, the issue with LED is it's inherent flexibility, and it may be difficult for the new reefer to be successful because of that. Most people here are too young (or not enough years in the hobby) to recall when MH had analogous issues. I bought my first MH fixture in 1988, and there were no reef-specific bulbs to buy so you had to play around with different choices. And it created problems.
I don't think that there's much doubt that LED will replace MH - probably sooner than later - in most reef tank implementations. I certainly have no plans to go back - for me, LED is simply better.
These two pictures are approximately two years apart; grown almost exclusively under LED. The most dramatic growth has been of the bali slimmer, the monti and torch coral. A couple of colonies have died; though not until after installing a few frags in the frag tank
. Causes of death varied - from crowding/shading/stinging, to a mysterious bacterial issue that ate some colonies, to some fish damage.FWIW, unless you plan to be a frag-factory, I'm also not sure that high growth rates are necessarily a good thing. It's more about consistency. After that first picture (the more recent one) was taken I had to do some pretty serious pruning of a number of corals. Filled up the frag tank an still had to throw a bunch out. PitA.
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markalot
...
then you should agree w/ the fact that if I took hundreds of specifically phosphored LEDs whose photon output equaled a MH bulb and mounted them on a corn cob and stuck it in a MH reflector it would indeed be equal...
none of the above is "impossible" btw...
In other words it is NEVER LED's but their specturm and spacial placement..
sometimes your words don't quite sound that way. My mistake..
That exact thing has been said here many times. Spectrum plus delivery equals identical. I have yet to see a corn cob LED array that can duplicate the spectrum of a Radium (or T5 combination) that used a big reflector to spread the light out into a tank.
The main two points of argument here are spectrum and spread IMO. LED can't do the sharp peaks, or it's not cost feasible yet, can't do the green peak (lime maybe comes close, or it's simply cost prohibitive). and I have seen some doubt that reflectors would work as well since the LED point source is rather narrow vs a charged element reflected from a reflector.
Light is light, directionality is directionality, hot spots are hot spots. We have strong evidence of what works, why don't LED mfgs try and duplicate it?
oreo57
Well-known member
first LED's normally are lensed at 120-140 degrees to begin with...Not exactly a "spot" configuration..though granted the center is heavily weighted.
Why manuf. do what manuf do.. now there is some voodoo for you..
Keep in mind LED "research" is geared for "other than" corals or aquariums in general..so manuf have to make do w/ what is available..
Now Phillips, a company w/ practically ZERO restriction on what they can or can't do..being a creator of LEDS (well manuf/design gets a bit muddy here)..is anotehr story.
We shall see how that turns out soon enough..
Sad part is the fact that like 1/4 mile of this thread is dealing w/ a few specific species failures under LED..Not even a group of species.. but a few ind. ones...
Te fact that LEd early iterations were based on "deep water" spectrums and to maximise depth penetration at the least cost (due to the extreme cost of early LEDs) doesn't seemed to have helped much..Even a high K MH is more full spectrum.
some early "in head" designs included pointing the LEd's UP and using a parabolic reflector..
I think you will grasp how much cost and complexity this would entail...
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karimwassef
Active member
then you should agree w/ the fact that if I took hundreds of specifically phosphored LEDs whose photon output equaled a MH bulb and mounted them on a corn cob and stuck it in a MH reflector it would indeed be equal...
none of the above is "impossible" btw...
In other words it is NEVER LED's but their specturm and spacial placement..
sometimes your words don't quite sound that way. My mistake..
But:
Photons from LED or MH or the sun for that matter.. makes no difference.. Statement makes no sense as I'm understanding it..
I agree. If you made a bulb/lens/reflector that offered the same spectrum and intensity and radiation pattern, it wouldn't matter if it was LED, MH, LEP, T5, VHO, or the sun.
Clear enough?
oreo57
Well-known member
karimwassef
Active member
In terms of other industries with interesting LED potential... I think BridgeLux LED reflector/lens street lights are worth looking at.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2542098&highlight=led+street+lights+
http://www.sunshineopto.com/china-5...light_lens_for_bridgelux_vero_29-7291889.html
http://sunshineopto.en.alibaba.com/..._lens_for_Citizen_Led_lens_for_Bridgelux.html
http://kitairu.net/lights-and-lighting/lighting-fixtures/118024.html
http://wxgtbl.en.alibaba.com/produc...w_150w_Street_Light_Glass_Lens_GT_110NA_.html
and street tunnel lights
http://www.reeth-ledlens.com/index.asp?tunnel/450.html
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2542098&highlight=led+street+lights+
http://www.sunshineopto.com/china-5...light_lens_for_bridgelux_vero_29-7291889.html
http://sunshineopto.en.alibaba.com/..._lens_for_Citizen_Led_lens_for_Bridgelux.html
http://kitairu.net/lights-and-lighting/lighting-fixtures/118024.html
http://wxgtbl.en.alibaba.com/produc...w_150w_Street_Light_Glass_Lens_GT_110NA_.html
and street tunnel lights
http://www.reeth-ledlens.com/index.asp?tunnel/450.html
JPMagyar
New member
And this is what a tank lit by metal halide that didn't use ANY LEDs looks like. Gee . . . sure wish some fancy LED manufacturing could make a nice reef like this
I really, really, really don't get why this became the LED thread I could have sworn this forum was about keeping reefs and not LED technological advances.
Anyways, here's today's shot of an awesome metal halide reef . . .
I really, really, really don't get why this became the LED thread
I could have sworn this forum was about keeping reefs and not LED technological advances.Anyways, here's today's shot of an awesome metal halide reef . . .
karimwassef
Active member
looks great, Joe.
The lenses could make LED's as effective in distributing light as metal halides with reflectors.
I'm a hybrid user myself, but use MH for growth.
Imagine what our MH tanks would look like without reflectors.
The lenses could make LED's as effective in distributing light as metal halides with reflectors.
I'm a hybrid user myself, but use MH for growth.
Imagine what our MH tanks would look like without reflectors.
oreo57
Well-known member
And this is what a tank lit by metal halide that didn't use ANY LEDs looks like. Gee . . . sure wish some fancy LED manufacturing could make a nice reef like this
I really, really, really don't get why this became the LED thread
Anyways, here's today's shot of an awesome metal halide reef . . .
Maybe the title had something to do with it..
Seems related..didn't say show me your MH tanks now did it..
Had to step away for a bit. Ca1ore, beautiful tank. My goal is to grow an immature reef as quickly as possible. While Sanjay's tank is one example.. based on what I've seen locally and the fact that Sanjay can probably utilize the tech better than most.. I'd say his example is probably a near best case example for LED capabilities with current tech. I'd be willing to bet that a someone like myself could grow SPS frags into colonies at least twice as fast with MH than with LED. My personal opinion for sure.
I'd be less confident :lol: Take lots of pictures and keep us posted. GL.
We are own all your thread......
I really, really, really don't get why this became the LED thread
Wazzel
New member
Based on what I have seen the growth rate differences is negligible.
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