Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[d2mini]

They have dropped now(but only due to a larger inventory, due to lack of demand) but will eventually start to rise back up.

Dropped? Where?
From what I have seen, retail prices on MH equipment has stayed pretty constant over the past few years. USED prices dropped for a while as people dumped their equipment so they could "upgrade" to LED, but now the used prices are starting to rise again.

 

[Mikefromaz]

What I see is some people not understanding that full spectrum LEDS newly engineered for better coverage meaning no more dark corners in tanks are already well accepted because they work. Every single person I know with a reef had to make allowances and adjustments for their MH and T5 bulbs. That subject probably occupies half of the posts on here. New technology always receives "push back" until it is accepted. LEDS are no exception.

 

[TropTrea]

The issue that exists pout there is range of quality. There are manufacturers out there putting together LED set ups that are as cheap as they build them with bargain basement LED's that are running less effecient than T-5's and not even producing decient power spectrum using only royal blue and Cool White LED's. Then on the other end of the spectrum you have manufacturers that producing fantastic color spectrum's with the most efficient LED's on the market however they are adding fancy remote control dimming and other unnecessary bells and whistle that is pushing the prices sky high.

When you go into the local pet store you see a LED set up costing $150 claiming to be reef balances but does even put out enough light for fish only fresh water tank that is 75 gallons. Then you find the super fixture that has the wattage, spectrum, and every imaginable bell and whistle for $1,500. If your the clueless newbie you buy the $150 fixture and cry when you cannot grow corals 3 months later only to end up buying another $150 fixture to double your light. You see an improvement but your still not there where want to be and after another 3 to 6 months determine that LED's are the way to go. You either give up on the hobby as too expensive or you switch to something like a T-5 set up for $500.

In reality there is no reason why a manufacturer could not make a good LED fixture for around $400 that would outperform any T-5 fixture for your 75 gallon tank. If I can build it in my basement for $300 why can't they build it for even less with there large purchases of parts from the manufactures direct rather than the middlemen I have to go through.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

In reality there is no reason why a manufacturer could not make a good LED fixture for around $400 that would outperform any T-5 fixture for your 75 gallon tank. If I can build it in my basement for $300 why can't they build it for even less with there large purchases of parts from the manufactures direct rather than the middlemen I have to go through.

The answer to that is simple - GREED.
Manufacturers want to make money and lots of it.
If by adding a few bells and whistles they can sell that $300 fixture for $1500 that is exactly what they will do, and have been doing.
The overhead of manufacturing these fixtures on a grand scale is a lot more than you think. They have a mortgage on their facility, workers to pay, insurance on those workers, storage and shipping costs.
Nobody wants to break even in business, that is not their goal.
They want to get rich just like we all do.

 

[jda]

They don't have to make a reasonable fixture - people are buying the ones that they currently make. Since when was it in the best interest of a company servicing early adopters to get to the end solution as quick as possible? This sometimes takes a customer pullback to drive future innovation.

Let's don't fool ourselves. The innovation that everybody wants is a single chip with spectrum from 350 to 700 like other types of light have. Apparently, if you want to read some research papers in German through Google translate, this is totally possible, but there are no efficiencies... yet. I hope that they find some. What happens if LED never evolves because to get the same thing that you get out of other types of light, it takes the same amount of energy and that the phosphors in the chips wear out and need replacmement? What if the only power efficiencies are due to the limited spectrum of each chip and that "blending" is as far as it can go?

 

[TropTrea]

Let's don't fool ourselves. The innovation that everybody wants is a single chip with spectrum from 350 to 700 like other types of light have. Apparently, if you want to read some research papers in German through Google translate, this is totally possible, but there are no efficiencies... yet. I hope that they find some. What happens if LED never evolves because to get the same thing that you get out of other types of light, it takes the same amount of energy and that the phosphors in the chips wear out and need replacement? What if the only power efficiencies are due to the limited spectrum of each chip and that "blending" is as far as it can go?

The biggest determination is what is driving the market for LED innovation. Presently the biggest marketing is the interior and exterior lighting industries followed by the horticultural as well as the Medical industry. If they were to rate the Aquarium industry we would lucky to make the top 10 and the reef keepers would fall behind the fresh water planted tanks, who also fall behind the decorative fresh water tanks.

The innovation though is out there in the LED industry making considerable changes in efficiency. Five years ago the DIYer was happy to gind a LED that got more than 70 Lumnens per Watt, 2 years ago he was lucky to get one producing 120 Lumnens per watt. The new Cree LED's are now pushing over 150 Lumnens per Watt, with Cree still promising to hit the 200 Lumnens per Watt mark by the end of the year. Instead of 1 watt single emitter LED';s we went to 3 watt emitters about 6 years ago 5 watt emitters about 2 years ago and in the last year we saw 10 watt emitters even.

Yes the range of LED's has expanded for the market as well in wave length selection. But this happened mainly from the Medical industry that is willing to pay 20 times more per emitter in order to reach a specific wavelength that would increase the price beyond what 99% of hobbies would be willing to pay. And believe me there are more doctors and dentists out there using LED's than there are reefers.

It all breaks down to the old demand driven economics. If you can make a 10 cent profit on a unit that you know you sell 5 million in a year it is where you put your investment money compared to a market where you might only be able to sell 1/2 million units a year.

Will it stay this way? Bot for ever eventually research will hit the point were innovation for the bigger markets will hit its limits and they will begin looking at the new markets like reefers to expand there sales. Yes today they could build that special chip for our needs but chances are it would not be 0.1% of there market so why invest several millions in that small fringe market when it can be used in an area that has %20% of there sales.

 

[nynick]

Chances are though that when developing that multi million dollar project for GM something will go wrong and by accident we will have the perfect new reef chip.

Isn't that how almost everything in this hobby has come to be? Accidents and remodeling.

I honestly can't think of a single item that was originally designed for this hobby.

 

[alton]

I think the person/persons that could develop that perfect led enjoy using there metal halides too much to develop it

 

[jda]

The biggest determination is what is driving the market for LED innovation. Presently the biggest marketing is the interior and exterior lighting industries followed by the horticultural as well as the Medical industry. If they were to rate the Aquarium industry we would lucky to make the top 10 and the reef keepers would fall behind the fresh water planted tanks, who also fall behind the decorative fresh water tanks.

Every time that I hear this, it amazes me. Companies make money with 20K radiums, Blue Plus or Purple Plus bulbs, 10K Ushios and the like. Nothing but the aquarium industry drove these, unless you all know people who are running 14K phoenix bulbs in the streetlights in their neighborhoods.

People already figured out how to move electrons. This is the equivalent, in my mind, to figuring out how to get the right gas inside of a HID bulb or fluorescent tube. Innovation will come in this hobby when the companies that make the LED stuff are struggling to sell new thunderstorm programs, puck configs and piecemeal diode configs with the old tech. If necessity is the mother of all invention, then what is the necessity with the major LED manufacturers in 2014? Even if they are dead set on truly innovating, what is the hurry?

 

[All__talk]

Every time that I hear this, it amazes me. Companies make money with 20K radiums, Blue Plus or Purple Plus bulbs, 10K Ushios and the like. Nothing but the aquarium industry drove these, unless you all know people who are running 14K phoenix bulbs in the streetlights in their neighborhoods...

I dont know that this is true, I think I read somewhere that 20K Radiums were originally developed for exterior building lighting.

 

[FastUno]

When you go into the local pet store you see a LED set up costing $150 claiming to be reef balances but does even put out enough light for fish only fresh water tank that is 75 gallons.

Hey, a cheap bastard like me takes offense to my $127 Chinese LED's!


Guys, I mean a VHO or T5 in a spotlight type bulb. This way I can direct the light only to the SPS's & not mess with anything else that may not like as much light. Is there anything like that for use & something other than LED's for the supplementation to the main LED's?


How the heck do you guys do it? I don't want my hand in the tank all the time. Here are my stingers:

-Hydnophora stung my Purple Stylo & left a RTN white patch underneath 1" section
-Torch is stinging my purple monti cap
-Pavona is stinging my green cap
-Green Birdsnest w/orange tip stinging monti dig
-Green Psammocora stung by Maxi Mini Carpet
-Xenia, GSP, Paly's all crowding & making each other unhappy
-Blue clove polyps taking over, yea & I read the warnings too
-GSP growing on black glass, had to cut it down.
-My beautiful neon green cap is blocked by all the other growing SPS's.
-My hammer is crowded
-Orange monti shading my Psammocora
-Oh yea my cyano is covering some rocks too

 

[SNAKEMANVET]

After running ai sol blues for a year,I am not impressed with the results.My sps look good on top but under branching sps the corals are white.So yesterday I put my 250 watt mhs back on.

 

[d2mini]

FastUno, there are no spotlights.
T5/VHO are fluorescent bulbs. These bulbs are long and the shortest I know of is 24". There are compact fluorescent bulbs that are u-shaped and overall these are shorter but still something like 12" and the light will still be pretty spread out.

How the heck do you guys do it? I don't want my hand in the tank all the time. Here are my stingers:

The traditional layout of a reef tank is thought of as broken down into three areas... upper, middle, and lower. You place each coral in one of these sections based on it's needs. There are many successful mixed reefs with everything from sps to lps to softies with success achieved through careful placement.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

I'm considering throwing my Pacific Sun fixture in the trash. I've had it for about 4 months and although it makes the fish look nicer than my T5s and I like the shimmer, I killed most of my coral with it and what is alive is brown. There just doesn't seem to be any way to set this thing up properly unless you spend a year trying different settings every few weeks.

 

[TropTrea]

Every time that I hear this, it amazes me. Companies make money with 20K radiums, Blue Plus or Purple Plus bulbs, 10K Ushios and the like. Nothing but the aquarium industry drove these, unless you all know people who are running 14K phoenix bulbs in the streetlights in their neighborhoods.

If you look at the history of MH's you find they went into production in the late 1920's but were not specifically for aquariums until 50 years later. And from day one MH's were popular for there higher K temperatures.

The same holds true fo Florescent bulbs that were around for nearly 50 years before they became popular for aquariums. And the first HO T-5's were made for aquariums spectrums in the early 2,000's but the bulbs were available for comercial use in the late 1080's. Again a lag.

The High Light LED's first went into production in 1976 bt did not exceed 1/4 watt until many years later. It took till 2008 before the fist 3 watt LED was produced. I would not expect specific aquatic LED;s to be produce untill the around 2018 if the trend continues.

 

[TropTrea]

I'm considering throwing my Pacific Sun fixture in the trash. I've had it for about 4 months and although it makes the fish look nicer than my T5s and I like the shimmer, I killed most of my coral with it and what is alive is brown. There just doesn't seem to be any way to set this thing up properly unless you spend a year trying different settings every few weeks.

While I do believe you have one of the the best spectrum fixtures out there I also believe that it not for the average reefer. The problem is they added so many bells and whistles that the average person does not know how to properly adjust. Even for the expert in order to adjust it your best off with a spectrum analyzer to get the proper adjustments.

If they mad it simple with a set light spectrum it would probably reduce the cost in half as well as make a lot more people happy.

 

[FastUno]

After running ai sol blues for a year,I am not impressed with the results.My sps look good on top but under branching sps the corals are white.So yesterday I put my 250 watt mhs back on

Many people & corals were unhappy with just white/blue lights. That is not what I have seen with the AI Vega. Take a look at this guys thread with the AI Vega. I think if I did not use the LED's I have, then I would have gone for the Vegas.

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/tank-threads/155477-my-72-gall-bow-front.html

there are no spotlights.

That stinks! So none of those small fuge lights or CFL bulbs have proven to grow corals? I guess too much algae & cyano growth then?

I think I tried to do just that, 3-4 layers. My mushrooms & favia's at the bottom mostly. Zoas between lower & mid layer. Sps's between mid & upper layer. Corals I don't really care a whole lot about on the 4th layer (all the way in the back right & consist of GSP, brown & blue palyps, xenia, purple star polyps...etc).

I have just run out of room for a specific coral on a specific layer. Only thing I can do is remove some corals I don't really care for now or upgrade...I think. 75g was said to be the best tank for reefers, but the 18" wide I see now that I wish had been 24". I hate the 24" tall on the 120g, so I guess I am looking for a custom 100g or so with 19-20" high.


I too thought the Pacific Sun fixture would kill the reef scene. I had such high expectations, especially their explanation of proper spectrum reading and all their research. I bet you someone out there will surprise us & use them in an unorthodox way. I am going to ask the manuf.

 

[d2mini]

That stinks! So none of those small fuge lights or CFL bulbs have proven to grow corals? I guess too much algae & cyano growth then?

That's not what i said.
I said cfl are the smallest in size but they are not "spotlights". There is still a good amount of spread.

But regardless, everything you continued to explain has nothing to do with lighting choice.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

I too thought the Pacific Sun fixture would kill the reef scene. I had such high expectations, especially their explanation of proper spectrum reading and all their research. I bet you someone out there will surprise us & use them in an unorthodox way. I am going to ask the manuf.

That's why I bought one. It looked to be the most advanced fixture on the market coupled with the extensive research of the manufacturer made it very attractive.

 

[FastUno]

I know I might have worded that wrong, but I was hoping for something like the size of a Par38 & no bigger, but CFL style lighting with good spread. I would like to squeeze them somehow on the back & not have them block my existing LED's, that would be the trick.

I have to take a look at those 12" ones, if nothing else at least just to see.


This guy has Pacific Sun fixtures & is one year into them. Looks like good colors & decent growth, although I know you SPS perfectionists would say otherwise?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2390903