Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[alton]

By the 2000s, high temp bulbs were quite good. I am speaking more of around the early 1990s when somebody was wanting to do better than hydroponics daylight MH bulbs that only went to 6500K.

What you can learn from those old discussions is that the people who said that the new stuff was not yet good enough were totally right. They are still right today - the sooner that people realize this, the sooner that they will eventually get good enough.

In 2000 in San Antonio there was not a lot of corals to choose from, I attached a picture from one of the top stores at that time. By 2003 corals where in full swing.

 

[SPotter]

Thanks!



I have switched around a little in the last 8 or 9 months all in an attempt to optimize the color on my growing colony of Red Planet which for me has so far been an almost Red Planet. Anyways, at the moment I am using 4 Giesemann True Actinic + 4 ATI Aquablue Specials with four 250 watt Radiums. The True Actinics are on from 8AM to 10PM. The ATI's are on from 10AM to 8PM, and the Radiums run Noon to 6.

Now I have the secret recipe!!!! I have the same exact light bulbs as you! now to tweak the photo periods!!!!

 

[markalot]

I wanted to update my post on the spectral differences between the Maxspect Razor and the Radium 250W bulb since the images did not post correctly. All images are from Advanced Aquarist.

and add a chart for the eye response.

In going back I used a different article which has a slightly different frequency plot for the Radium. Assuming Icecap ballasts, the Radium blue peak is ~.61 watts per blah ( new terminology ) while the Razor is 1.8 watts per blah.

Good grief that's a big difference.

So what's interesting is that on my LED lights the white channel with a little added blue most simulates the 20K bulb EXCEPT, and it's a big exception, the white channel brings a lot of light 550 thru 600, which the eye is most sensitive too. When I run only whites the color is a horrible yellowish green, as would be expected.

And above, I said 550 is green when it's really yellow green, or Lime.

Of course the Razor is marketed as 16K, but in this case I'm purposely comparing it to the bulb know to give the best coral colors.

 

[Bryopsis]

Thanks!

I have switched around a little in the last 8 or 9 months all in an attempt to optimize the color on my growing colony of Red Planet which for me has so far been an almost Red Planet. Anyways, at the moment I am using 4 Giesemann True Actinic + 4 ATI Aquablue Specials with four 250 watt Radiums. The True Actinics are on from 8AM to 10PM. The ATI's are on from 10AM to 8PM, and the Radiums run Noon to 6.

LOL
Indeed, very nice corals

 

[Bryopsis]

I wanted to update my post on the spectral differences between the Maxspect Razor and the Radium 250W bulb since the images did not post correctly. All images are from Advanced Aquarist.

and add a chart for the eye response.

In going back I used a different article which has a slightly different frequency plot for the Radium. Assuming Icecap ballasts, the Radium blue peak is ~.61 watts per blah ( new terminology ) while the Razor is 1.8 watts per blah.

Good grief that's a big difference.

So what's interesting is that on my LED lights the white channel with a little added blue most simulates the 20K bulb EXCEPT, and it's a big exception, the white channel brings a lot of light 550 thru 600, which the eye is most sensitive too. When I run only whites the color is a horrible yellowish green, as would be expected.

And above, I said 550 is green when it's really yellow green, or Lime.

Of course the Razor is marketed as 16K, but in this case I'm purposely comparing it to the bulb know to give the best coral colors.

This is one of the reasons I don't buy into the magical assumptions that halides are so much better. Though I do agree the led lights with red/green/even orange, are not necessarily needed. If those colors were indeed needed to grow coral, we wouldn't see full 100% blue lit tanks.

Interesting to see the maspect outpower a 250w halide..

 

[jda]

Interesting to see the maspect outpower a 250w halide..

They don't. Using at integrating sphere to measure radiated watts, it would take a few panels at 100% to output more than a typical 250W MH.

 

[Bryopsis]

They don't. Using at integrating sphere to measure radiated watts, it would take a few panels at 100% to output more than a typical 250W MH.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, the SI there clearly shows the led's being higher? (I'm not expert that's for sure.. lol)

 

[sirreal63]

You are, but that is only because you do not know how the measurements were taken. For the MH no reflector was used and the LEDs get the benefit of their point source all being in one direction. Add a reflector and the picture changes, depending on the reflector you can blast light downward in a very tight narrow beam or you can spread the light more or less evenly.
It is easy to misunderstand.

 

[sirreal63]

Perhaps this will help.
http://www.personal.psu.edu/sbj4/aquarium/articles/MetalHalideLamps1.htm

 

[Bryopsis]

Oh, ha lol... No reflector huh, isn't that standard operating procedure?!
(I'm totally joking lol)

If they would have said that I surely wouldn't have thought much about the reading.

 

[markalot]

This is one of the reasons I don't buy into the magical assumptions that halides are so much better. Though I do agree the led lights with red/green/even orange, are not necessarily needed. If those colors were indeed needed to grow coral, we wouldn't see full 100% blue lit tanks.

Interesting to see the maspect outpower a 250w halide..

Light is light period. Except for a few fanatics I don't think anyone here thinks Halides are magically better. If you could reproduce the frequency AND reflected spread of a a favorite Halide bulb the corals would look exactly the same, assuming the same tank, water parameters, etc.

There are two primary issues IMO. One is the spectrum issue, the other is the reflector issue. My solution would be multiple LED fixtures, perhaps strip lights, so I could simulate the spread of T5 or to some extent Halide and also benefit from LED.

LED's are certainly able to grow coral and produce colors, but there is no LED yet that can reproduce the incredible colors that a good reefer and a 20K bulb can reproduce ... OR no one is able to prove it in a photo.

I would love to be able to take an LED fixture, dial in a spectrum, and boom, simulate the light I want. Of course I would need at least two of these to light the top and front side of the corals so I could enjoy the colors without having to take top down shots. I also think diffusers of some sort are needed to prevent hotspots.

 

[muttley101]

Thanks!

I have switched around a little in the last 8 or 9 months all in an attempt to optimize the color on my growing colony of Red Planet which for me has so far been an almost Red Planet. Anyways, at the moment I am using 4 Giesemann True Actinic + 4 ATI Aquablue Specials with four 250 watt Radiums. The True Actinics are on from 8AM to 10PM. The ATI's are on from 10AM to 8PM, and the Radiums run Noon to 6.

Haha, I'm in the same boat... I bought a red planet that was more like brown planet then it turned green with a little pink... Trying to get most of it red with red polyps.. slowly ramping up lighting periods. Thanks again!

 

[jda]

Oh, ha lol... No reflector huh, isn't that standard operating procedure?!
(I'm totally joking lol)

If they would have said that I surely wouldn't have thought much about the reading.

In terms of radiated watts, there is no efficiency and each source is about 15-20%... roughly. No matter the source, the input wattage had about the same output wattage.

Basically, you need three "panels" at 60-80% to duplicate a typical 250W MH setup... 2 would get close and three could more slightly more. However, I don't know too many high light enthusiasts that use a typical 250W MH... most are HQI, use HQI ballasts or are 400w. ...so you might need another panel, or maybe two for low output panels. Some of the people who have used both on high light tanks (SPS) have found the same things with just their eyes and experiences - three panels where they once had a single halide... or one halide where they once had three panels.

My supposition is that the people who went from 400W halides to a single panel should have probably been using 70 or 150W HQI instead of the 400s.

 

[jda]

Light is light period. Except for a few fanatics I don't think anyone here thinks Halides are magically better. If you could reproduce the frequency AND reflected spread of a a favorite Halide bulb the corals would look exactly the same, assuming the same tank, water parameters, etc.

I think that there is more in the quantum than just frequency and spread. It would seem at a minimum that pulsing a LED (dimming) would be an important factor in the photon as well.

 

[d2mini]

Haha, I'm in the same boat... I bought a red planet that was more like brown planet then it turned green with a little pink... Trying to get most of it red with red polyps.. slowly ramping up lighting periods. Thanks again!

My red planet, way up high under 250w Radiums. :bum:
It lost it's green base being up so high, but I can't complain about the pinks.

 

[muttley101]

My red planet, way up high under 250w Radiums. :bum:
It lost it's green base being up so high, but I can't complain about the pinks.

I can't complain either... it's making my white shirt turn pink from the reflection lol... My cebu sun came in and it's a beast... You and Tweaked nailed it on the build of this thing... It can take a hit from a Russian T-90 and keep lighting my tank. Thanks for the inspirations!

-Mutt

 

[markalot]

I think that there is more in the quantum than just frequency and spread. It would seem at a minimum that pulsing a LED (dimming) would be an important factor in the photon as well.

If we weren't underwater I might be inclined to agree just a little, but we are underwater and the random shimmering / reflection from the surface is going to be more significant than any 60 hz blinking you appear to be concerned about. In my opinion anyway.

If instead you are speaking of some un-provable property of light, well I can't really argue with that.

When I say re-produce the spectrum exactly, I mean exactly, which is going to be tough to do. But on the bright side the magical qualities of the 20K bulb to not preclude other combinations that produce similar results. It just takes years of basically trial and error to find it.

IMO of course.

 

[alton]

Metal Halide are not magical, they just plain work. Too many LED fixtures that my friends don't even last two years, and when they contact the manufacture they get please send $200 for upgrade. My Radium lamps last longer than some LED fixtures.

 

[Benar]

Are led manufacturers pulling our leg with their spectral blend? I'd imagine it would be more zig zag at each nm the led is binned for and less smooth curves throughout. Either way they've been selling a lot of fallacy. I'm happy I finally gave up on them and replaced with 250w Radium. Corals are too.

 

[clugo]

Guy, this seems to be the place where most of the MH people are.

I'm looking for insight on which direction to go w/ my new light fixture for my new 72x28x28 tank.

1. 5 Ft Cebu Sun with 3 x 250 Watt Hamilton 14,000K & 4-80W T5 460nm blue bulbs w/ 3 x 250W magnetic ballasts

2. 5 Ft Cebu Sun with 3 x 250 Watt Hamilton 14,000K & 4-80W T5 460nm blue bulbs with the three dimmable MH 250W electronic ballasts

3. 5 Ft Cebu Sun with the 3 x 250 Watt Radium bulbs and M80 ballasts

What do you guys think?

Thanks.