Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

Ambient temperature seems to really be the make or break factor here. I have friends that keep their houses at 78-80 degrees all the time. Would be a close call. Without a fan, and keeping my ambient temps at 72-74 degrees in the house, my halides will raise the tank temps about 3-4 degrees through the duration of the photoperiod. With a single fan going it will usually lower it actually to below normal operating temps when the heater is in charge.

There seems to be a threshold though. If I look at my apex graph for temperature, if the lights happen to come on at the peak of a heater cycle, the temps will stay up at 79-80 and even creep a little higher. If they come on at the low swing between heater on/off cycles, the fan seems to drive the temps lower actually and over the course of the mh on period, temp will fall slightly
 
It is one of those issues that you have to look at each system independently. We have always kept our house around 75 in summer and 72 in winter. Ambient temp, humidity, other heat inputting devices, ventilation, etc all play a part. Lighting is never the only factor.
 
Metal halides aren't always simple. Keeping temps in check and the additional electrical draw have to be considered. But you have to consider that on a case by case basis. If you keep your house in the mid-70's in summer, have good ventilation or a open topped tank, and keep other heat sources in check(use efficient pumps)... Then it's really not bad. You also have to allow warmer temps in the tank. With LED or T5's, I could keep the tank steady at 78(3 degrees above room temp). With metal halide, the tank would peak at 82 in the summer(7 degrees above room temp). The corals didn't seem to mind. I did bump up the heater a bit, so that night time temps were closer in line with the peak. This obviously adds additional electrical usage. But if you are trying to save energy, you're not looking at metal halides anyway.

A little back story. I ran the same 180 gallon tank in two different houses, under several different light sources over the last decade. I started off with metal halides:

3075086149_fa0032a0bd_z.jpg


Then I decided to run a T5 fixture for a while:

4966573956_5311ba834f_z.jpg


Eventually I was excited to do LED's:

10047167124_cfd3e17d88_z.jpg


I didn't like the harsh shadows, so I added a BuildMyLED strip to help as an angled uniform light source. That helped. Coloration in corals was good, but growth was mild.

Eventually, I had some LED ballast issues during a really busy time in my life. The LED fixture used the same ceiling mounts as my metal halide fixture. While I sorted out what to do and balanced a heavy work load at the office, I strung up my old halide fixture as a stop gap till I had more time.... And then I forgot about it for a few months. Eventually, work settled down and I started paying attention to my tank again... And holy cow! I had some pruning and weeding to do. It was like someone threw coral steroids in my tank. :) So I decided to leave the metal halides on. I did get new ballasts for the LED. Anyway, none of this is surprising really. Regardless, I had decent growth and decent colors with T5, LED, and MH.

Now I should mention, I haven't used the newest LED's and my T5 fixture was not top of the line. But my conclusion is this. Halides grow corals the fastest and have the potential for great coloration, but at the price of heat and electricity. T5's have good growth and great coloration in corals(sometimes better than mh), but I personally find the lighting to feel stale. I think that's a combo of no glimmer lines and the spectrum is weird to me(no matter what the bulb combo). And finally LED's are tricky. I personally feel par numbers on a 2'x2' square DO NOT tell the whole story. A reef is 3 dimensional! Most LED's have harsh shadows that impact growth and recession. I personally believe you have to use way more modules/fixtures than suggested by the manufacturers. For example, on my 180, I would have done 6 radions. I would definitely have to reduce the intensity of each module, but the multiple fixtures would have provided better spread and reduced shadows. That's just my opinion. And if you are running 6 radions versus 3 250-watt halides, the electrical usage might be a wash. But temperature would be easier to manage, and the controllability would be really cool with the radions! Unfortunately, that's just out of my budget for the moment. :(

So now, I'm starting with a new tank. I'm going to go with metal halides initially. Mostly due to cost and I want to crank out some growth. I want to go back into LED's ultimately, but I've learned I would need to splurge for double the recommended fixture or supplement with T5's. So I wouldn't be surprised to be running a LED/T5 hybrid combo down the road, purely to keep tinkering. We'll see I guess.

Here's the tank shortly before teardown:

15956045093_8b70f643f3_z.jpg
 
Metal halides aren't always simple. Keeping temps in check and the additional electrical draw have to be considered. But you have to consider that on a case by case basis. If you keep your house in the mid-70's in summer, have good ventilation or a open topped tank, and keep other heat sources in check(use efficient pumps)... Then it's really not bad. You also have to allow warmer temps in the tank. With LED or T5's, I could keep the tank steady at 78(3 degrees above room temp). With metal halide, the tank would peak at 82 in the summer(7 degrees above room temp). The corals didn't seem to mind. I did bump up the heater a bit, so that night time temps were closer in line with the peak. This obviously adds additional electrical usage. But if you are trying to save energy, you're not looking at metal halides anyway.

A little back story. I ran the same 180 gallon tank in two different houses, under several different light sources over the last decade. I started off with metal halides:

3075086149_fa0032a0bd_z.jpg


Then I decided to run a T5 fixture for a while:

4966573956_5311ba834f_z.jpg


Eventually I was excited to do LED's:

10047167124_cfd3e17d88_z.jpg


I didn't like the harsh shadows, so I added a BuildMyLED strip to help as an angled uniform light source. That helped. Coloration in corals was good, but growth was mild.

Eventually, I had some LED ballast issues during a really busy time in my life. The LED fixture used the same ceiling mounts as my metal halide fixture. While I sorted out what to do and balanced a heavy work load at the office, I strung up my old halide fixture as a stop gap till I had more time.... And then I forgot about it for a few months. Eventually, work settled down and I started paying attention to my tank again... And holy cow! I had some pruning and weeding to do. It was like someone threw coral steroids in my tank. :) So I decided to leave the metal halides on. I did get new ballasts for the LED. Anyway, none of this is surprising really. Regardless, I had decent growth and decent colors with T5, LED, and MH.

Now I should mention, I haven't used the newest LED's and my T5 fixture was not top of the line. But my conclusion is this. Halides grow corals the fastest and have the potential for great coloration, but at the price of heat and electricity. T5's have good growth and great coloration in corals(sometimes better than mh), but I personally find the lighting to feel stale. I think that's a combo of no glimmer lines and the spectrum is weird to me(no matter what the bulb combo). And finally LED's are tricky. I personally feel par numbers on a 2'x2' square DO NOT tell the whole story. A reef is 3 dimensional! Most LED's have harsh shadows that impact growth and recession. I personally believe you have to use way more modules/fixtures than suggested by the manufacturers. For example, on my 180, I would have done 6 radions. I would definitely have to reduce the intensity of each module, but the multiple fixtures would have provided better spread and reduced shadows. That's just my opinion. And if you are running 6 radions versus 3 250-watt halides, the electrical usage might be a wash. But temperature would be easier to manage, and the controllability would be really cool with the radions! Unfortunately, that's just out of my budget for the moment. :(

So now, I'm starting with a new tank. I'm going to go with metal halides initially. Mostly due to cost and I want to crank out some growth. I want to go back into LED's ultimately, but I've learned I would need to splurge for double the recommended fixture or supplement with T5's. So I wouldn't be surprised to be running a LED/T5 hybrid combo down the road, purely to keep tinkering. We'll see I guess.

Here's the tank shortly before teardown:

15956045093_8b70f643f3_z.jpg
Excellent post!

Something I was struck by when I saw your pictures and I see many times when looking at reefs that are lit by different light sources. When you pull back and just get an initial impression of MANY LED tanks, the dominant colors seem to be purple and green. Its very strange. When you look closer there are obviously more colors that that, but at first glance those colors seem to dominate in many LED lit tanks. It may be because of the reflected light or it may be how LED light affects the camera, or because of the pigments that the corals produce under the LEDs, who knows. It is just very clear in the pics from your reef.
 
I'm loving that tank Mark. Tell us what bulbs and photoperiod you were using.

Thanks! I couldn't begin to remember which T5 bulbs I used when I was solely using them. But before the tear down, I was using the 250-watt Phoenix 14k DE's with a single row of Blue plus T5 and one row of Actinic T5. And I still had the Build My Led mounted to the top trim piece angled in at 45 degrees. I only ran the mh for 6-7 hrs. The BML and T5 provided adequate viewing the remaining hours.
 
Who the hell wants growth.. I want to slow it down.
I think people forget sometimes how fast a coral can grow and the amount of room they need.. I see too many new tanks with too many frags. I though thier was enough room between these two and that is only 1 year.

This is one year between pics.:

1797617_10203474391087076_1023470514_n_zpszmp1ksvr.jpg


ATT_1427857034663_20150331_184724_zpss15qfret.jpg
 
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Thanks! I couldn't begin to remember which T5 bulbs I used when I was solely using them. But before the tear down, I was using the 250-watt Phoenix 14k DE's with a single row of Blue plus T5 and one row of Actinic T5. And I still had the Build My Led mounted to the top trim piece angled in at 45 degrees. I only ran the mh for 6-7 hrs. The BML and T5 provided adequate viewing the remaining hours.

Looks terrific either way. I'm a big fan of BML super actinic + MH. What a great combo. I run radiums with a BML strip angled inward which is pretty close in spectrum to what you had. Now if the growth would just cooperate. Montipora grow at a pest pace and I'm fragging constantly just to keep room available. Acropora...not so much, kinda sitting still for like a year now.
 
I really love the form factor I'm getting under metal halide. The corals are growing in with nice wide formation. Here are two corals I started from tiny frags.



IMG_2004_zpsbo6qarm4.jpg



IMG_2009_zpsaxdswms0.jpg
 
your joking right??

No I am not.. Color but not this fast of growth, at this rate my corals will out grow my tank to fast. Look at the ora spongodes it has quadrupled in size in a year. The first pic is only a few months and you can see the frag plug.
If you look back at other pics of my tank I have a elegance coral that has quadrupled in size too in a year. I have some goniopora and alevapora etc that have over doubled. In a couple years they will outgrow my tank. I already have crowding issues with a crispa that takes up almost 1/3 of my tank. My growth is out of hand. I already had to remove stuff.
 
No I am not.. Color but not this fast of growth, at this rate my corals will out grow my tank to fast. Look at the ora spongodes it has quadrupled in size in a year. The first pic is only a few months and you can see the frag plug.
If you look back at other pics of my tank I have a elegance coral that has quadrupled in size too in a year. I have some goniopora and alevapora etc that have over doubled. In a couple years they will outgrow my tank. I already have crowding issues with a crispa that takes up almost 1/3 of my tank. My growth is out of hand. I already had to remove stuff.

Frag and sell, baby.
How do you think I buy anything for my tank nowadays?
Faster the better! :thumbsup:
 
No I am not.. Color but not this fast of growth, at this rate my corals will out grow my tank to fast. Look at the ora spongodes it has quadrupled in size in a year. The first pic is only a few months and you can see the frag plug.
If you look back at other pics of my tank I have a elegance coral that has quadrupled in size too in a year. I have some goniopora and alevapora etc that have over doubled. In a couple years they will outgrow my tank. I already have crowding issues with a crispa that takes up almost 1/3 of my tank. My growth is out of hand. I already had to remove stuff.

Corals actually grow very fast, even the kind of growth you are showing I would consider that poor for MH. Below is what I consider an example of growth under MH. My tank, pictures are 11 months apart.

010e-bd07-5642-785f.jpg


20ae-5950-332c-26c4.jpg


7 months after the first pic I pulled the blue stag (behind the blue tort) out of the tank.

fdfe-90b0-5fef-30bc.jpg


You can see a bunch of little frags glued down in the fist pic and what they look like in less than a year.
 
Corals actually grow very fast, even the kind of growth you are showing I would consider that poor for MH. Below is what I consider an example of growth under MH. My tank, pictures are 11 months apart.

010e-bd07-5642-785f.jpg


20ae-5950-332c-26c4.jpg


7 months after the first pic I pulled the blue stag (behind the blue tort) out of the tank.

fdfe-90b0-5fef-30bc.jpg


You can see a bunch of little frags glued down in the fist pic and what they look like in less than a year.


Holly crap batman! I thought I was starting to get good growth now that I went back to MH, but not like that. Very nice.
 
Corals actually grow very fast, even the kind of growth you are showing I would consider that poor for MH. Below is what I consider an example of growth under MH. My tank, pictures are 11 months apart.

010e-bd07-5642-785f.jpg


20ae-5950-332c-26c4.jpg


7 months after the first pic I pulled the blue stag (behind the blue tort) out of the tank.

fdfe-90b0-5fef-30bc.jpg


You can see a bunch of little frags glued down in the fist pic and what they look like in less than a year.

 
Montipora Spongodes 11 months growth, initially about 1.5" and bleach white, now about 10" or so across



Montipora Stellata. 11 months growth. Was totally brown with no PE, two 2" tall sticks. Now it's about 10-12" across with great colors. I've fragged pieces larger than the originals 4-5 times in that timespan and sold them.



Purple montipora cap. 11 months growth. Started about 6" wide oval shaped encrusting. Now it's got multiple tiers well over a foot in height and length. Also fragged several times



I would consider this decent growth. Not spectacular. I've had horribly unstable parameters over the last year with alk ranging from 11dkh to 6 dKH. Suffered a big alk spike which resulted in a near tank crash. Lost 90% of my acropora (hence why I have none to show here). I also tried 10k bulbs for a few months in the middle of that time frame so there was some bulb change acclimation as well. My radiums I use now are also 15 months old. Overall not bad growth from montipora for just shy of a year considering how completely lousy of a reefer I've been this year. Halides sure are forgiving
 
I don't mean to put anyone's growth down and please please please forgive me if my comment seems harsh, but I work hard to kill ANY monti that rears it's head in my tank because montis grow like weeds in any environment and will quickly overrun a tank. They are extremely aggressive and can out compete any and all other corals by simple virtue of their speed of growth. So my point is when comparing growth under different lighting I don't think monti digi or plating is a good example.

Again forgive my harsh message, I'm just trying to keep the information and discussion flowing and hopefully everyone understands that my intentions are good even if my opinions are ultimately proven wrong :)

On the other hand are you all looking at the pictures JB posted . . . now that is GROWTH!!!!
 
I don't mean to put anyone's growth down and please please please forgive me if my comment seems harsh, but I work hard to kill ANY monti that rears it's head in my tank because montis grow like weeds in any environment and will quickly overrun a tank. They are extremely aggressive and can out compete any and all other corals by simple virtue of their speed of growth. So my point is when comparing growth under different lighting I don't think monti digi or plating is a good example.

Again forgive my harsh message, I'm just trying to keep the information and discussion flowing and hopefully everyone understands that my intentions are good even if my opinions are ultimately proven wrong :)

On the other hand are you all looking at the pictures JB posted . . . now that is GROWTH!!!!

Sadly I agree, monti spongodes is almost cheating. They can grow even with low alk/cal/mg which is shocking.
 
So I'm guessing I shouldn't post my pocillopora and stylophora growth rates either then? Lol. Jk but I suppose you do bring a valid point. Montipora are too easy to really be convincing in this argument.

I observe improved growth from zoas and Lps also though. I don't think the benefit is limited to acros only, even though they're the most challenging.

Hopefully my tank crash is finished and it's wake subsided. I just picked up 7 new acro frags to try. It's my first acro purchase in months for fear of killing them again. Perhaps in a years time I'll have a similar success story to share
 
All this talk about MH and heat....I have 2 radions in a canopy, keep my house at 70 and can't get the temp below 81......it's getting annoying
 
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