theatrus
100-mile-commuter
For a mainstream fixture yes. The Chinese black boxes are going to be all over the map.
Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides
- Thread starter Goldcoastreefs
- Start date
For a mainstream fixture yes. The Chinese black boxes are going to be all over the map.
drummerboyevil
New member
Wait, you mean you get what you pay for in this hobby?!
oreo57
Well-known member
Somewhat.. and not without a gooooood look...
To be honest the cheap "Bridgelux" chips run around 50 lumens/watt while current chips (some like the small smd5630's) are now pushing 200 lumens/watt.
"Old tech" Metal halides and t5's are still (and will continue to be) around 100lumens/watt
Now that is lumens..not PAR ..soo take that into consideration..
As the high output small emitters become more "mainstream" i.e cheaper by volume, things will adjust accordingly..
BTW even buying "name brand" i.e CREE doesn't necessarily mean superior chips.. All have "bins" of varying output and electrical characteristics..
Not even considering drive currents...
Pushing cheap Bridgelux to their specs (and probably greatly shortening their lifespan) can produce more or equal output to the finest CREE's run conservatively..
Point is it is not always easy to determine "if" you get what you pay for..
karimwassef
Active member
Unless you have a PAR meter... Then you'll know
karimwassef
Active member
By the way, theatrus has a thread on here about a DIY PAR meter and the latest from Apex is a good value (IMO). It's not the super expensive luxury item it used to be.
drummerboyevil
New member
unless you have the NEW par sensor too...
karimwassef
Active member
Also, the binning constraint is a very important one. Most of what makes it into the crappy cheap fixtures or DIY chip sources are reject bins. Those LEDs are not all bad, but you need to know what you're getting to accurately determine life, PAR, and thermal management.
Cheap isn't always bad and expensive isn't always good...
But knowing and measuring what you have is good, and not knowing is bad...
If you know, you can always correct or even throw it away day 1. If you don't, you assume LEDs are bad after your corals shrivel up.
Knowledge is your friend...
Cheap isn't always bad and expensive isn't always good...
But knowing and measuring what you have is good, and not knowing is bad...
If you know, you can always correct or even throw it away day 1. If you don't, you assume LEDs are bad after your corals shrivel up.
Knowledge is your friend...
theatrus
100-mile-commuter
Manufacturers would also be buying or keeping in stock several bins (depending on how they can source them and availability), and blend chips in the fixture to maintain a consistent output to meet their minimum spec (you could get *better*, and I have no idea if anyone is calibrating output levels via software - with swappable emitter boards I doubt it).
The eBay chips are effectively the rejects, but usable - the more it costs the better it will be (kinda). LEDs from main US distributors for Cree/Osram/Lumileds/Bridgelux are generally not guaranteed to be any bin in the cut tape quantities, but in my experience are the middle of the road in desirability of bins (the cut reel will be sold for evaluation purposes, so they don't want to put the worst ones in the mix for a customer). If you're buying whole reels you can generally pick, based on availability (the upper end bins may not even exist in volume production or would only appear years later as fabrication improves) and who has a better purchasing contract than you.
The eBay chips are effectively the rejects, but usable - the more it costs the better it will be (kinda). LEDs from main US distributors for Cree/Osram/Lumileds/Bridgelux are generally not guaranteed to be any bin in the cut tape quantities, but in my experience are the middle of the road in desirability of bins (the cut reel will be sold for evaluation purposes, so they don't want to put the worst ones in the mix for a customer). If you're buying whole reels you can generally pick, based on availability (the upper end bins may not even exist in volume production or would only appear years later as fabrication improves) and who has a better purchasing contract than you
.
dkeller_nc
New member
Quite possibly. Though in general any of these colonies will hang out for 4-6 weeks in apparent perfect health, and then RTN in a couple of days, or STN over a period of a couple of weeks. However, frags of these same colonies seem to do quite well in a tank that I have that's run with T5HO. Moreover, many of these colonies are "second generation" propagated from the initial maricultured ones from Indonesia under MH.
Nevertheless, it could still be a light acclimation issue. It's unlikely to be intensity, since the PAR measurements come out quite closely. But it's certainly not impossible for it to be a spectral issue. Quite a number of these colonies color-shift under the Radions.
Wazzel
New member
Looking around it seems that most people that have success with LED started with LED from frags. Those that swap in a mature tank seem to have more issues. I have no clue on what is going on, but it seems to be common.
Bpb
New member
Probably because those who start with LEDs already have their schedule and intensity settled and aren't constantly experimenting with settings and mucking everything up. Experimenting with different t5ho bulbs is different since most have the same spectral properties from 380-500nm or at least very similar. Changing out tubes seems to be a gentler process and not many people frequently swap out their Mh bulbs except for when they're spent.
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oreo57
Well-known member
not really unexpected.. Stick them outside and they'd probably color shift..
That is a spectral proportion thing I assume..
of course since spectum control is now in ones own hand instead of a manuf.. well that is an issue right there..
Of course the "opinion" of what is a "correct" color is just an opinion..
but people like "standards"..
blasterman789
New member
One critical difference between LED and MH or tube is the vast majority of LED reef lights use optics while MH or t5s dont. Take a large 2 foot fresnel lens, mount it in front of your MH, and more than likely youll suddenly have intensity issues and bleaching. LED sources are great for coral. Collimated light sources not so much, and likely accounts for most of the problems with LED. Picked up some frags from a local guy with a 400 gallon display over the weekend. This guy had half a dozen acropora colonies 2 feet in diameter over growing the thing, and he was running all generic LED fixtures.
dkeller_nc
New member
Yeah, I can't say that I know either, though the observations that the colonies that I've bought come in as maricultured (i.e., sunlight/ocean grown), nearly all universally acclimate to MHs and tank life, have an 80% or so mortality under what I'd call "standard par/photoperiod" LEDs, but frags of the same colonies seem to do very well under T5HO on an interconnected system (so water chemistry is the same, or very close) is very odd indeed.
My plan is to switch out my main DT to an 8-bulb T5HO unit, but continue to use Radions over my smaller frag tanks. It'll be interesting to see if I can somehow acclimate these strains to Radions.
karimwassef
Active member
This aligns with my experience too.
My hypothesis is that fragmented corals have a different biological and chemical response to change. This is how corals reproduce and colonize new regions, so an evolutionary advantage to rapid acclimation makes lots of sense.
They can survive many conditions that would kill the mother colony and even push new growth at a superior rate in worse conditions. It's as if they have much more fight in them and that energy is released to grab hold of any opportunity to make it go.
Like babies that have special immunity and survival qualities...
My hypothesis is that fragmented corals have a different biological and chemical response to change. This is how corals reproduce and colonize new regions, so an evolutionary advantage to rapid acclimation makes lots of sense.
They can survive many conditions that would kill the mother colony and even push new growth at a superior rate in worse conditions. It's as if they have much more fight in them and that energy is released to grab hold of any opportunity to make it go.
Like babies that have special immunity and survival qualities...
karimwassef
Active member
That extends to much more than light. They just better fighters and survivors. Something in the fragging process triggers a biological change.
Wazzel
New member
Interesting thought.
I have had a number SPS corals that have died off, but a small frag taken from them did the opposite, same water parameters and light, it just doesn't make sense how they not only don't die but thrive.
I've often thought on an older coral all the less lit parts are taking energy from the other, leading to the coral being more sensitive than a frag. ?
karimwassef
Active member
We need some scientists to start studying the biochemical response to fragging.
How does a coral know that it was fragged?
Is the part of the coral on the parent also stimulated to grow?
What are the chemical stimuli that make a frag respond differently and can they be artificially induced?
...
Some days I really wish I'd followed my dream and become a marine scientist. I just had too many competing dreams.
How does a coral know that it was fragged?
Is the part of the coral on the parent also stimulated to grow?
What are the chemical stimuli that make a frag respond differently and can they be artificially induced?
...
Some days I really wish I'd followed my dream and become a marine scientist. I just had too many competing dreams.
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