Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[sleepydoc]

There are pros and cons to different lighting but after using LEDs, I didn't find there to be nearly the electrical savings that I thought.



Mainly because my heaters were running all the time.



Savings was nil to minimal at best.

If you're looking at efficiency, heating a tank with an electric heater will always be more efficient than with MH (or any other kind of lighting.) The need to run electric heaters will certainly reduce the savings, but it will still be less energy. Did you actually measure watts consumed or just notice that your heaters were on more?

All of this depends on the ambient temp of the room, type of heating for the room, etc. in addition, in many areas of the country it's warm enough that heat is an issue in the summer, even if it isn't in the winter. If you're running A/C then you also get a less visible but more significant savings because less ambient heat is created causing the A/C to run less.

 

[karimwassef]

radiated IR is a pretty good way to transfer heat...

if you've got thinning or no hair (like some might/not me though....), try sticking your head under a 400W MH ... you'll feel the brain sizzling IR.

The conducted heat is not efficiently transferred to the water - that's true. But if the room is cold, it becomes a space heater around the tank. More gains!

 

[Bpb]

Not EXACTLY in line with the thread, but after giving LEDs a try myself, I was left underwhelmed. I've seen a handful of people make a successful transition but I was not one of them. Decided to close the chapter out on my time with LEDs and picked up a used ATI 8x54 watt Sunpower to use on my 90 gallon. Overkill? Yeah a little, but they'll be 12" over the water but sitting on top of a canopy so even at that height I will have no light spill (even out the top as the fixture covers the entire footprint.

I'd rather replace bulbs annually on a light source that just works and has no guessing involved. Haven't physically switched the lights over just yet, but the new fixture is in my possession. Still need to order a few more bulbs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ComforablyNumb]

Still nothing below 390-400nm, and everything between 400nm and 455nm is not continuous.

Spectral graph for Kessils, you can clearly see there is output in 380-400nm range:



Note: you can even control the 370nm- 420nm output with the 100% variable settings that are avail on the a360w!


Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7XLgLiA0PM ..... at about the 24 minute mark
Cheers, Tim

 

[Aqualund]

Spectral graph for Kessils, you can clearly see there is output in 380-400nm range:



Note: you can even control the 370nm- 420nm output with the 100% variable settings that are avail on the a360w!


Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7XLgLiA0PM ..... at about the 24 minute mark
Cheers, Tim

Fair enough, some of the charts I saw "mentioned" a 390nm led but no concrete evidence. I would assume based on this chart they at least have 1 or 2 390nm or even 380nm leds in the matrix.

This addresses a small part of the argument for the spectrum deficiencies below 455nm. Just because there is a continuous line on the spectral plot, it by no means represents a continuous spectral variety from say...380 up to 455. These are very discrete values, and because there is no phosphor emission below 455nm, then there are many holes in the spectral variety.

(But to be very real about this...if you were to compare a plot of the Kessil versus a plot of a Radium 20k, and integrate the plot for everything below 455nm, the Kessils provide nearly 50% less light in this area which cannot be overcome by any manner of tuning...and that's not even addressing spectral variety)

For me personally, I am perfectly happy with running Kessils and supplementing with Actinic T5's to cover that problem.

But this is me being picky and expecting a completely different light source to perform the same or better as another (in regards to growth and coloration of certain types of acropora).

I just want to add though, that I think Kessil is doing the best job of all LED manufacturers of offering a simple and competent lighting solution for coral enthusiasts. I would have literally no problem using these lights and recommending them to others as a very good option for lighting their tanks. I feel in like 5 years they might be the first ones to actually have a direct Halide replacement. Here's hoping!

 

[drummerboyevil]

I just want to add though, that I think Kessil is doing the best job of all LED manufacturers of offering a simple and competent lighting solution for coral enthusiasts. I would have literally no problem using these lights and recommending them to others as a very good option for lighting their tanks. I feel in like 5 years they might be the first ones to actually have a direct Halide replacement. Here's hoping!

They are great lights and leave little room (compared to other lights) for user error. The only real downside is that they probably require the most planning for arrangement and aquascaping because of the spotlight nature of the LED. Easy to overcome if you put some thought into it, IMO.

I've had a lot of different mainstream LED systems and so far, for stand alone LED units, the kessil is a win for me. I've yet to try radions, however.

 

[alton]

Well after to years of using BML's I switched over my new 180 to them. Of course they only make horticulture leds now, but hopefully they will get back into market? For me MH is the best but I wanted low profile and less evaporation. BML for me made it easy, I run them at 80% on a manual dimmer. Like others I care less about the ramping up and down and color control. The 20K has 400nm leds and all the way through the entire spectrum. I tried most of the chinese black boxes and it didn't work for me. Another plus for BML was the fact there leds are not spot lights, so the chance of burning is nill or none. The light is more like T5HO with good reflectors.
My old 300DD

My new 180

 

[Fredfish]

...
This addresses a small part of the argument for the spectrum deficiencies below 455nm. Just because there is a continuous line on the spectral plot, it by no means represents a continuous spectral variety from say...380 up to 455. These are very discrete values, and because there is no phosphor emission below 455nm, then there are many holes in the spectral variety.
...

I've seen this mentioned several times here, but have not seen any corroborating evidence. That does not make what you have written wrong, I just like to see evidence from a known source.

The one thing that is definitely missing from most LED lights is sub 400nm light. I believe Orphec puts UV-A diodes in their lights as well.

 

[oreo57]

I've seen this mentioned several times here, but have not seen any corroborating evidence. That does not make what you have written wrong, I just like to see evidence from a known source.

The one thing that is definitely missing from most LED lights is sub 400nm light. I believe Orphec puts UV-A diodes in their lights as well.

some people just insist on believing LED have laser like emission spectra.. when the truth is they can have 30nm north and south of the major peak..in an effective range (somewhere around 20%)

not that you can't have holes.. but not near as "bad" as one is led to believe..

"some people" believe this is all smoke and mirrors but have Never produced ANY hard evidence ..ever
http://www.edn.com/design/led/4375668/Accurately-Plot-Colors-from-Power-Spectrum-Data

http://www.ssi.shimadzu.com/products/literature/uv/VIS/SSI-Pittcon12-UV-001.pdf

 

[reefdude135]

Well after to years of using BML's I switched over my new 180 to them. Of course they only make horticulture leds now, but hopefully they will get back into market? For me MH is the best but I wanted low profile and less evaporation. BML for me made it easy, I run them at 80% on a manual dimmer. Like others I care less about the ramping up and down and color control. The 20K has 400nm leds and all the way through the entire spectrum. I tried most of the chinese black boxes and it didn't work for me. Another plus for BML was the fact there leds are not spot lights, so the chance of burning is nill or none. The light is more like T5HO with good reflectors.

My new 180

Which combo of BML did you select?

 

[alton]

I had two of the regular 14K on my old tank, going to the new tank I added two 20K XB.

 

[drummerboyevil]

I've seen this mentioned several times here, but have not seen any corroborating evidence. That does not make what you have written wrong, I just like to see evidence from a known source.

The one thing that is definitely missing from most LED lights is sub 400nm light. I believe Orphec puts UV-A diodes in their lights as well.

Kessil has a significant peak at 380.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

Kessil has a significant peak at 380.

And its adjustable.

 

[drummerboyevil]

And its adjustable.

It is adjustable, and the blue spectrum stays pretty consistent all the way throughout that adjustment

 

[slief]

One thing is for sure.. I won't be jumping ship on my Kessil 360WE's. I run 8 of them over a 48"x96"x24" tall tank. That is one light per 24"x24" area which is not many of them by most people's standards. I don't run any supplemental lighting.

As has been said countless times, PAR numbers are deceiving. My tank is a mix of soft corals, LPS and SPS. My big hammer colonies have gone from around 10 heads to over 100 in the last 16 or so months under Kessils. My SPS corals have been growing at about an inch a month but the growth seems to be increasing exponentially as the frags grow. They are growing like weeds. Below are some growth shots showing the last few months of growth of some of the frags. I've been posting regular growth shots in my build thread too. Unfortunately, I don't have a good camera. These were taken with my iPhone and no filters so the colors don't really depict the actual colors of the corals. There are lots of other corals in my tank but these are just a handful that I've been tracking growth on due to their location and ease of photographing them.

This was taken Jan 16th.

These were taken March 5th. It's grown about an inch in that time with several new tips.

Taken 4/11

Taken Jan 16th. You can see the birdsnest and the coral in front of it. I have no idea what the one in front is but it's growing fast too.

March 5th
The birdsnest in the background has grown like crazy and the coral in the foreground has grown well too.

Taken 4/11

 

[slief]

This was taken Jan 6th. I had to move this coral last week because it's grown so much and was growing into the other birds nest.

March 5th

Taken 4/11 in it's new location. Not a great shot because I have to take the picture from an angle due to where it is.

Jan 6th.

[/QUOTE]

March 5th

Today 4/11. I accidentally fragged a bit off this one a couple weeks back. That piece that was broken off was located some place else in the tank. You can see where the piece is missing from the middle of it.

This one is a bit slower growing due to it's location and living in the shadow of a giant hammer coral.
Jan 6th.

March 5th

Today 4/11. The lighting here makes it tough to get a good shot showing the green color.

[/QUOTE]

 

[slief]

Taken Jan 6th.

March 5th.

Jan 6th

March 5th.

Taken 14 months ago.. You can see the little hammer coral top center if you look close. You can also see a small hammer coral left close to the bottom. It will be very obvious in the picture after this one. The one on the bottom left was two or 3 heads at the time.

This was taken a few months ago making these pictures just under a year between. Notice all the growth. No new corals were added between the time these two pictures were taken.. The hammer on the top was approaching 100 heads and the size of a basketball. The one near the bottom left was over 30 heads when this was taken.

 

[dkeller_nc]

I've seen this mentioned several times here, but have not seen any corroborating evidence. That does not make what you have written wrong, I just like to see evidence from a known source.

The one thing that is definitely missing from most LED lights is sub 400nm light. I believe Orphec puts UV-A diodes in their lights as well.

Except for Kessils and possibly Orphek, I think you're right. Higher-end LED units like the AI Hydras and the Radions do actually have "400 nM" LEDs in the fixtures, but IMO, not nearly enough of them. In my case, I've Radion G3 Pros (both XR15w and XR30w). The XR30w has 10 watts of 400 nM LEDs out of a total of 170w. However, there's a sharp drop in efficiency of diodes in the violet range (400 nM isn't UV, despite manufacturer's claims to the contrary), so the radiometric output of the light fixture in the sub 410 nM range is poor.

That said, I started the LED odyssey with AI Color Vegas. I had very poor luck with them; very few stony corals of any genera would grow, and many outright died.

I switched to Radions about a year and half ago. The odd thing about them is that corals of the seriatopora, stylophora, montipora capricornis, anacropora, blastomussa, and tubipora (pipe organs) grow quite well. Acans and most acropora do not. Acropora, in particular, has been problematic. There's often odd color shifts in new colonies, uniformly poor growth and outright die-offs. Yet the same does not occur with frags of these same colonies under fluorescents of approximately the same PAR and in the same water system. There have been a few exceptions with acropora - a small handful of acropora species/clades have grown decently well under the Radions.

It's for that reason that I just pulled the trigger 20 minutes ago on an 8-bulb ATI T5HO fixture to replace the Radion over my 50 cube. While I definitely like the intensity variation and spectral shift over the photoperiod of LEDs, in the end it's about having a reasonable shot at growing everything that strikes my fancy, regardless of electricity savings, which I calculate to be minor at best. I suppose it'd be different if I had a 6' x 3' tank, but T5HO and MH bulb costs just aren't all that significant either compared to the overall cost of the hobby.

There's also an aesthetic consideration. This may simply betray my long-term obsession with reef keeping, but tanks lighted with LED only do not have the visual appeal of MH/T5HO or T5HO lighting on a tank. It may simply be the overall lack of green in most LED fixtures that screws up color rendition, but for me few things compare to a spectacular SPS tank lighted with 14k - 20k Metal Halides. So my new 4' tank build will be MH/T5HO unless someone convinces me otherwise.

 

[Aqualund]

Taken Jan 6th.



March 5th.

Jan 6th

March 5th.


Taken 14 months ago.. You can see the little hammer coral top center if you look close. You can also see a small hammer coral left close to the bottom. It will be very obvious in the picture after this one. The one on the bottom left was two or 3 heads at the time.


This was taken a few months ago making these pictures just under a year between. Notice all the growth. No new corals were added between the time these two pictures were taken.. The hammer on the top was approaching 100 heads and the size of a basketball. The one near the bottom left was over 30 heads when this was taken.

I dont think anyone here has ever debated the efficacy of leds over LPS.

 

[Aqualund]

some people just insist on believing LED have laser like emission spectra.. when the truth is they can have 30nm north and south of the major peak..in an effective range (somewhere around 20%)

not that you can't have holes.. but not near as "bad" as one is led to believe..

"some people" believe this is all smoke and mirrors but have Never produced ANY hard evidence ..ever

I'm going to assume that you are not including me in on "some people," but I am going to assume that because you brought this up, it is in reponse to my position that there is not enough sub 455nm representation in LED fixtures yet.

Yes, all leds have a range of spectra that they emit...but even you stress that the range intensity is only about 20% (intensity)...because it doesnt occur often enough to be higher. So to say that you could throw say...a 380nm led in there and it will reliably cover your needs all the way from 350nm to 410nm is not a reliable answer. But if you said you threw in a 380, 390, 400, 410, 420, 430 and said that covered it....well I can't really argue with you there.

And some people say Kessil's peak in the 380nm is significant...I dont share the same view. It is also "adjustable" only in a limited fashion. It's a definite step in the right direction...but I dont think it goes far enough yet.

I would stop my nit picking if these fixtures had every available sub 455nm led from 350nm up to 455nm individually adjustable...or a 300nm led with a phosphor coating to give a full emission spectra.

Until then we simply cannot compare apples to apples and say that one performs the exact same function more efficiently when talking about ALL corals. For now we can only say it's for nearly all corals.