Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[slief]

One thing is for sure.. I won't be jumping ship on my Kessil 360WE's. I run 8 of them over a 48"x96"x24" tall tank. That is one light per 24"x24" area which is not many of them by most people's standards. I don't run any supplemental lighting.

As has been said countless times, PAR numbers are deceiving. My tank is a mix of soft corals, LPS and SPS. My big hammer colonies have gone from around 10 heads to over 100 in the last 16 or so months under Kessils. My SPS corals have been growing at about an inch a month but the growth seems to be increasing exponentially as the frags grow. They are growing like weeds. Below are some growth shots showing the last few months of growth of some of the frags. I've been posting regular growth shots in my build thread too. Unfortunately, I don't have a good camera. These were taken with my iPhone and no filters so the colors don't really depict the actual colors of the corals. There are lots of other corals in my tank but these are just a handful that I've been tracking growth on due to their location and ease of photographing them.

This was taken Jan 16th.

These were taken March 5th. It's grown about an inch in that time with several new tips.

Taken 4/11

Taken Jan 16th. You can see the birdsnest and the coral in front of it. I have no idea what the one in front is but it's growing fast too.

March 5th
The birdsnest in the background has grown like crazy and the coral in the foreground has grown well too.

Taken 4/11

 

[slief]

This was taken Jan 6th. I had to move this coral last week because it's grown so much and was growing into the other birds nest.

March 5th

Taken 4/11 in it's new location. Not a great shot because I have to take the picture from an angle due to where it is.

Jan 6th.

[/QUOTE]

March 5th

Today 4/11. I accidentally fragged a bit off this one a couple weeks back. That piece that was broken off was located some place else in the tank. You can see where the piece is missing from the middle of it.

This one is a bit slower growing due to it's location and living in the shadow of a giant hammer coral.
Jan 6th.

March 5th

Today 4/11. The lighting here makes it tough to get a good shot showing the green color.

[/QUOTE]

 

[slief]

Taken Jan 6th.

March 5th.

Jan 6th

March 5th.

Taken 14 months ago.. You can see the little hammer coral top center if you look close. You can also see a small hammer coral left close to the bottom. It will be very obvious in the picture after this one. The one on the bottom left was two or 3 heads at the time.

This was taken a few months ago making these pictures just under a year between. Notice all the growth. No new corals were added between the time these two pictures were taken.. The hammer on the top was approaching 100 heads and the size of a basketball. The one near the bottom left was over 30 heads when this was taken.

 

[dkeller_nc]

I've seen this mentioned several times here, but have not seen any corroborating evidence. That does not make what you have written wrong, I just like to see evidence from a known source.

The one thing that is definitely missing from most LED lights is sub 400nm light. I believe Orphec puts UV-A diodes in their lights as well.

Except for Kessils and possibly Orphek, I think you're right. Higher-end LED units like the AI Hydras and the Radions do actually have "400 nM" LEDs in the fixtures, but IMO, not nearly enough of them. In my case, I've Radion G3 Pros (both XR15w and XR30w). The XR30w has 10 watts of 400 nM LEDs out of a total of 170w. However, there's a sharp drop in efficiency of diodes in the violet range (400 nM isn't UV, despite manufacturer's claims to the contrary), so the radiometric output of the light fixture in the sub 410 nM range is poor.

That said, I started the LED odyssey with AI Color Vegas. I had very poor luck with them; very few stony corals of any genera would grow, and many outright died.

I switched to Radions about a year and half ago. The odd thing about them is that corals of the seriatopora, stylophora, montipora capricornis, anacropora, blastomussa, and tubipora (pipe organs) grow quite well. Acans and most acropora do not. Acropora, in particular, has been problematic. There's often odd color shifts in new colonies, uniformly poor growth and outright die-offs. Yet the same does not occur with frags of these same colonies under fluorescents of approximately the same PAR and in the same water system. There have been a few exceptions with acropora - a small handful of acropora species/clades have grown decently well under the Radions.

It's for that reason that I just pulled the trigger 20 minutes ago on an 8-bulb ATI T5HO fixture to replace the Radion over my 50 cube. While I definitely like the intensity variation and spectral shift over the photoperiod of LEDs, in the end it's about having a reasonable shot at growing everything that strikes my fancy, regardless of electricity savings, which I calculate to be minor at best. I suppose it'd be different if I had a 6' x 3' tank, but T5HO and MH bulb costs just aren't all that significant either compared to the overall cost of the hobby.

There's also an aesthetic consideration. This may simply betray my long-term obsession with reef keeping, but tanks lighted with LED only do not have the visual appeal of MH/T5HO or T5HO lighting on a tank. It may simply be the overall lack of green in most LED fixtures that screws up color rendition, but for me few things compare to a spectacular SPS tank lighted with 14k - 20k Metal Halides. So my new 4' tank build will be MH/T5HO unless someone convinces me otherwise.

 

[Aqualund]

Taken Jan 6th.



March 5th.

Jan 6th

March 5th.


Taken 14 months ago.. You can see the little hammer coral top center if you look close. You can also see a small hammer coral left close to the bottom. It will be very obvious in the picture after this one. The one on the bottom left was two or 3 heads at the time.


This was taken a few months ago making these pictures just under a year between. Notice all the growth. No new corals were added between the time these two pictures were taken.. The hammer on the top was approaching 100 heads and the size of a basketball. The one near the bottom left was over 30 heads when this was taken.

I dont think anyone here has ever debated the efficacy of leds over LPS.

 

[Aqualund]

some people just insist on believing LED have laser like emission spectra.. when the truth is they can have 30nm north and south of the major peak..in an effective range (somewhere around 20%)

not that you can't have holes.. but not near as "bad" as one is led to believe..

"some people" believe this is all smoke and mirrors but have Never produced ANY hard evidence ..ever

I'm going to assume that you are not including me in on "some people," but I am going to assume that because you brought this up, it is in reponse to my position that there is not enough sub 455nm representation in LED fixtures yet.

Yes, all leds have a range of spectra that they emit...but even you stress that the range intensity is only about 20% (intensity)...because it doesnt occur often enough to be higher. So to say that you could throw say...a 380nm led in there and it will reliably cover your needs all the way from 350nm to 410nm is not a reliable answer. But if you said you threw in a 380, 390, 400, 410, 420, 430 and said that covered it....well I can't really argue with you there.

And some people say Kessil's peak in the 380nm is significant...I dont share the same view. It is also "adjustable" only in a limited fashion. It's a definite step in the right direction...but I dont think it goes far enough yet.

I would stop my nit picking if these fixtures had every available sub 455nm led from 350nm up to 455nm individually adjustable...or a 300nm led with a phosphor coating to give a full emission spectra.

Until then we simply cannot compare apples to apples and say that one performs the exact same function more efficiently when talking about ALL corals. For now we can only say it's for nearly all corals.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

Can anyone tell me how much mH bulbs lose PAR and color-shift over a one year period?

 

[Bpb]

No simple answer to that. Every bulb:ballast combo will yield different results on par loss


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[drummerboyevil]

Can anyone tell me how much mH bulbs lose PAR and color-shift over a one year period?

You can get some info on that here:
http://melevsreef.com/node/678

 

[ComforablyNumb]

Thanks drummerboy! Seems like the average intensity loss is 15%-25% with the majority of the drop-off occurring in the first few months. So mH's are really operating at less than advertised intensity for the majority of their useful time? Or am I misreading that?

I would also like to see how the color shifts over time with mH if anyone knows that..or has a source that indicates it. Thanks again.

 

[karimwassef]

It's true that MH lose PAR, but they start at a higher PAR (even though that PAR comes at a poorer efficiency relative to power consumption).

So a 400W MH runs at 10% efficiency = 40W of light on day one, deteriorating to 80% of that = 32W of light.

And a 100W LED runs at 20% efficiency = 20W of light... with little degradation (assumed) = 20W of light.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy

As long as you take all those factors into consideration, you can figure out how much light you're really getting.

Get a PAR meter - you'll be happier

 

[karimwassef]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/7/aafeature1

 

[Fredfish]

...
I switched to Radions about a year and half ago. The odd thing about them is that corals of the seriatopora, stylophora, montipora capricornis, anacropora, blastomussa, and tubipora (pipe organs) grow quite well. Acans and most acropora do not...

And yet, I've seen others who have had success with acropora using Radions. Confuzzled stuff...

There's also an aesthetic consideration...

Indeed. Personally I've never liked the look of an all T5 tank. I'm also not a fan of high K MH. I just don't like the blue shifted look.

As to the missing green in LEDs I'm a little surprised that the Luxeon lime has not found wider use in LEDs. For those fixtures using them, the colour balance, with the appropriate settings, is quite good.

 

[jda]

Concerning efficiency and radiated watts, here are some tests from an integrated sphere - nobody should be factoring in general lighting efficiencies with reef stuff since warehouses, streetlights, etc. don't contain and reflect light like a reefer does. Note that the kessil and radion are at 100%, which nobody would do. The Ushio was on a Icecap 250 electronic, which not too many people would do nowadays - that bulb does not have very good output and neither does the ballast. At normal output numbers (not 100%), you can see why Sanjay (and others) need 2 Radions to replace a 250W Halide and 3 to replace a 400W Halide. I cannot believe how bad the Kessil is for efficiency.

Ushio 250W (14K): 41W Radiated/ 250W input = 16% Efficiency
Kessil A350W (both channels high): 13W Radiated/ 90W input = 14% Eff.
Echotech Radion XR15W (all channels 100%): 17W Radiated/ 73W = 23% Eff

I love this guy since this guy did something and not just googled stuff. I would donate money for him to do more - like Radium 20K on M80 or XM/Hammy 10K on M58.

Post
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2404334

 

[slief]

Concerning efficiency and radiated watts, here are some tests from an integrated sphere - nobody should be factoring in general lighting efficiencies with reef stuff since warehouses, streetlights, etc. don't contain and reflect light like a reefer does. Note that the kessil and radion are at 100%, which nobody would do. The Ushio was on a Icecap 250 electronic, which not too many people would do nowadays - that bulb does not have very good output and neither does the ballast. At normal output numbers (not 100%), you can see why Sanjay (and others) need 2 Radions to replace a 250W Halide and 3 to replace a 400W Halide. I cannot believe how bad the Kessil is for efficiency.

Ushio 250W (14K): 41W Radiated/ 250W input = 16% Efficiency
Kessil A350W (both channels high): 13W Radiated/ 90W input = 14% Eff.
Echotech Radion XR15W (all channels 100%): 17W Radiated/ 73W = 23% Eff

I love this guy since this guy did something and not just googled stuff. I would donate money for him to do more - like Radium 20K on M80 or XM/Hammy 10K on M58.

Post
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2404334

In reading that thread, I didn't get that at all when it comes to the Kessils. Since blue light (Kessils strong point) doesn't read well by a par meter, there is no deriving the efficiency from that kind of a reading. Also keep in mind that corals get most of their needed photosynthetic radiation from the blue spectrum (Kessils strong point).

In fact, the OP of that thread says and I quote him: "Basically, I think what this says is that you get about the same amount of light per watt with either system, but the kessil might have an advantage with coral growth, as it dumps more of its energy into the blue. " He is comparing metal halide to Kessil 350.. Not even the 360WE. Also, he is running the channels at 100%. The Radion has Red, Green and more white LED than the Kessil does which will provide more output in readable spectrum but you would never run the Radions in that manner. Nor would you run the Kessil at 100% color which is more of a white shift. As such, while is results are interesting, a better comparison would be to test the lights in the manner they would be used instead of running them with all channels at 100%. The reality is that both the Radions and the Kessils are very well suited for any kind of corals growth. My SPS growth under Kessils has been phenomenal. I have a friend who uses Radions without supplemental lighting and his SPS growth is insane too. I think the biggest issues with LED's is how people are using them and or the source of the corals. Either will grow SPS great. Some frags may respond better than others but both are very well suited for growth. Radions are nice because they include controllable channels such as red and green which are great for using artificial light to bring out colors in corals that you wouldn't normally see in the ocean. The Kessil 360's lack those controllable diodes so you might not get the Reds and yellows to pop the way you would under a Radion Pro or even the Kessil AP700 now that Kessil has those channels under control with the latest beta app.

 

[slief]

Concerning efficiency and radiated watts, here are some tests from an integrated sphere - nobody should be factoring in general lighting efficiencies with reef stuff since warehouses, streetlights, etc. don't contain and reflect light like a reefer does. Note that the kessil and radion are at 100%, which nobody would do. The Ushio was on a Icecap 250 electronic, which not too many people would do nowadays - that bulb does not have very good output and neither does the ballast. At normal output numbers (not 100%), you can see why Sanjay (and others) need 2 Radions to replace a 250W Halide and 3 to replace a 400W Halide. I cannot believe how bad the Kessil is for efficiency.

Ushio 250W (14K): 41W Radiated/ 250W input = 16% Efficiency
Kessil A350W (both channels high): 13W Radiated/ 90W input = 14% Eff.
Echotech Radion XR15W (all channels 100%): 17W Radiated/ 73W = 23% Eff

I love this guy since this guy did something and not just googled stuff. I would donate money for him to do more - like Radium 20K on M80 or XM/Hammy 10K on M58.

Post
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2404334

What is really interesting to me is that 6 years ago, I was running two 400 watt Radium halides and six 4' VHO fluorescent bulbs (a total of about 1460 watts) and with my 8 Kessils running at 80% intensity (a total of 570 used watts during my 4 hour peak intensity period), I am seeing equal or better growth across the board on all coral types. Granted, my overall water quality is probably better now than it was then but still, judging by the growth shown above of SPS and LPS, watt for watt, LED's like the Kessils are pretty efficient when it comes to producing light needed most for coral growth.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

Kessil A350W (both channels high)

Stopped reading @ Kessil A350

That lamp has long since been replaced by the a360. Years ago.

 

[oreo57]

I'm going to assume that you are not including me in on "some people," but I am going to assume that because you brought this up, it is in reponse to my position that there is not enough sub 455nm representation in LED fixtures yet.

Yes, all leds have a range of spectra that they emit...but even you stress that the range intensity is only about 20% (intensity)...because it doesnt occur often enough to be higher. So to say that you could throw say...a 380nm led in there and it will reliably cover your needs all the way from 350nm to 410nm is not a reliable answer. But if you said you threw in a 380, 390, 400, 410, 420, 430 and said that covered it....well I can't really argue with you there.

And some people say Kessil's peak in the 380nm is significant...I don't share the same view. It is also "adjustable" only in a limited fashion. It's a definite step in the right direction...but I dont think it goes far enough yet.

I would stop my nit picking if these fixtures had every available sub 455nm led from 350nm up to 455nm individually adjustable...or a 300nm led with a phosphor coating to give a full emission spectra.

Until then we simply cannot compare apples to apples and say that one performs the exact same function more efficiently when talking about ALL corals. For now we can only say it's for nearly all corals.

first the minor dig was for those who say the posted LEd spectral charts are garbage and all marketing. They seem to believe that posted spectra "lie" in their representation. Like there are large hidden "holes" in the data that are smoothed over because measuring equipment isn't that good..or people lie.

There is a small partial truth in that BUT not nearly to the extent some seem to want people to believe. A while back I posted data on some leds where the measurements were done in a few nM increments showing a relatively smooth progression around a central peak...Of course if ones position is you can't measure things that precisely well there is no winning an argument on those grounds. It becomes a matter of faith...

using that logic one wonders why graphs like this are not held to the same standard?
Aquablue Plus Spectrum (just picked one)

BTW using 20% as a baseline throws out a whole bunch of wavelengths in the above..
Granted the large spikes throw off the overall so technically a little unfair.
Or this:

As to included/not included/ wavelengths... that is a whole different ball game..

The second point is if there is some "magic wavelength" that is inherent in t5/MH it is not that LEDs are incapable (except for some very random fluke)
just that LED "as designed" are incapable..
Maybe some species need a mercury spike emission..Or maybe the teeny tiny amount of sub 380nm light in the above 20000k/10000k mh chart.

And yes I also don't consider the Kessel sub 400nm light output significant.. but again , you may be holding it to a different standard.

 

[oreo57]

Concerning efficiency and radiated watts, here are some tests from an integrated sphere - nobody should be factoring in general lighting efficiencies with reef stuff since warehouses, streetlights, etc. don't contain and reflect light like a reefer does. Note that the kessil and radion are at 100%, which nobody would do. The Ushio was on a Icecap 250 electronic, which not too many people would do nowadays - that bulb does not have very good output and neither does the ballast. At normal output numbers (not 100%), you can see why Sanjay (and others) need 2 Radions to replace a 250W Halide and 3 to replace a 400W Halide. I cannot believe how bad the Kessil is for efficiency.

Ushio 250W (14K): 41W Radiated/ 250W input = 16% Efficiency
Kessil A350W (both channels high): 13W Radiated/ 90W input = 14% Eff.
Echotech Radion XR15W (all channels 100%): 17W Radiated/ 73W = 23% Eff

I love this guy since this guy did something and not just googled stuff. I would donate money for him to do more - like Radium 20K on M80 or XM/Hammy 10K on M58.

Post
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2404334

first off you are missing "overall"efficiency...

Now the kessil only uses 90W, whereas the 250W metal halide ballast uses about 300W at the wall-plug.

Not sure why he switched to 250 later..Oversight?
giving you 13.6 not 16%..
Secondly an integrated sphere in no way reflects the actual "geometry" of the light..Large bulbs radiating 360 degrees w/ wrap around reflectors of what quality vs. the same for an LED which radiates around 140 degrees and is then lensed to a smaller spread.. Point is even an integrating sphere can't compensate for actual design..
How much of the MH was so far off axis as to be unavailable to the tank? How much of the LED?

Point is EVERY measurement has it's weakness...
I do like the chart ..especially ALL that energy in the IR range..was that counted? Seems like it was (and a lot of wasted energy it is)

What it gives you is total power radiated at each wavelength.

Needs clarification...........

to be clear, I'm not in any way stating that LED
's are as "efficient" as claimed..like a 30W LED replacing a 200W MH efficient for an example, and am pretty much in agreement that that has been one of the "mistakes".
Wishful thinking I guess..

 

[dz6t]

In reading that thread, I didn't get that at all when it comes to the Kessils. Since blue light (Kessils strong point) doesn't read well by a par meter, there is no deriving the efficiency from that kind of a reading..

He is not using a par meter, also only some consumer grade low cost par meter have that issue.
The bottom line is that a 90w Kessil is not a replacement of a 250w metal halide lamp as their efficiency are similar.