Anyone try Marine Environment dual phase formula salt mix???

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10552214#post10552214 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gtrestoration
So how can you state that the levels are high?

In the tests you offer above did Marineland test the NSW samples or pull them from reference books?

SteveU

Here is what I posted:

"You will notice that Dr. Hovanec's 2004 study shows much, much higher levels of certain metals in BioSea Marine Mix compared to the levels claimed by AquaCraft in the S-15 report from 1993."

I did not make any claims one way or the other. I did not state that the levels were high, I reported that Dr. Hovanec's 2004 study shows much, much higher levels of certain metals in BioSea Marine Mix. It's a published scientific study. I'm only reporting it. (P.S. -- I'm talking about Hovanec reporting levels much higher than what was reported in the S-15 report. Also, levels much higher than the other salt mix brands tested.)

You can judge Hovanec's study on its merits as you see fit.

My point in posting it is to point out that there are other studies online that show results that are quite different from the results claimed by Aquacraft in their 1993 S-15 report.

:D

P.S. -- If you read Dr. Hovanec's article, you will see that he based NSW levels on "Pilson 1998."
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10552214#post10552214 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gtrestoration
So how can you state that the levels are high?

I think maybe you're confused here. The two gifs that I posted are from the 1993 S-15 report. If you want to compare those numbers with Dr. Hovanec's report, you will have to follow the link to his September 2004 article. He found BioSea Marine Mix values on certain toxic metals to be much higher than what was claimed in the S-15 report.
 
Hovanec's tests results are from packages of marine salts he opened and hydrated. They were then sent to a lab of his choice.

There is no indication of procedure employed to safe guard agains possible cotamination or cross contamination of samples.

It is possible that contaminants were added. Possibly by accident. Possibly not. -- I say this because in well over dozens and dozens of independent tests we have had performed, not one test indicated high levels of antomony in any brand of marine salt, including ours.

You will also notice in this "test" NSW (Catalina brand) was discredited.

If you look at all his results, you will see that any commercially competitive products (a mix or NSW) to his had something wrong with it.

RE: The Inland "study". Several samples of the same brand of salts were opened and various parts of each package were mixed together. There was no indication of equipment used in the back room of this now defunct hole-in-the-wall LFS.

Inland hydrated the various mixtures and sent them to a lab of their choosing.

Again, if a reputable lab does not receive factory sealed and untampered packages of salts, then open and hydrate them under strict lab. conditions, results cannot be considered valid.

I.e. The practice of opening packages and mixing them yourself, then sending them to an "outside" lab negates any real findings.

As Inland's chart for bromine/bromide clearly shows. ALL brands of marine salts had levels of Br far in excess of NSW. -- However, NSW was not tested at the same time of salt testing.

Viewing the results of Br in the Inland "study" it is evident that some problem(s) existed or were encountered with their labs abililty to accurately test for Br.

The Bingman test omitted all ACP salts. When I asked Craig, face to face why no ACP salts were tested, he replied... "We got all the salts from XXXX mail order company. They did not have yours."

I found this unusual, considering this was said by a researcher.

If you take some time and compare values expressed in the Bingman report Vs. the S-15 Report, one can draw many parallels to the brands that are represented in both tets.

RE: Jack Kent. I had to beef with him then and I have no beef with him now. He made a limp wristed threat of litiagation. I asked him to step up to the plate, dig deep and prove his postion within the industry. He did not.

Boomer.... still waiting for you to provide, evidence, proof and/or documentation regarding #1 and #2 questions in my previous post. Then, we can move on.

And Boomer, please, no more attacks, baseless accusations, etc. Just answer the two questions.
 
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Okay, let's all try to stick to the facts at hand, and the chemistry issues.

I've seen a lot of salt studies, and I don't think they show much, in the end. I've yet to see any study that indicates correlation of the parameters that are measured to actual life expectancies or general health of animals in the tank. Such a study would be extremely expensive, but without that data, I see no conclusive way to choose a salt based on the differences seen in these studies of ionic content.
 
As far as the S-15 report, given that the group that did the work is anonymous, I can't accept it as neutral. In scientific journals, the names and affiliations of the authors are given, in order to allow some judgement as to conflict of interest. Without that data, I'm not willing to spend much time on the S-15 report, although I understand the unwillingness of people to put their names in the public view.
 
<<< You will also notice in this "test" NSW (Catalina brand) was discredited. >>>



I would hardly consider Catalina "Real Ocean Water" a NATURAL product or close to NSW levels, not by a longshot.

I recently purchased a 5g sealed box of this Catalina brand water from my local Petco just to have it in reserve for emergency purposes. Out of curiousity I opened the box several weeks ago and ran tests on the Catalina water using both reliable Seachem and API kits, and the results were quite surprising to say the least. The alk (tested 6 seperate times) came in at nearly 20 dKH, the salinity was low, the calcium was low, and the pH a bit low. I'm sure glad I didn't blindly use that Catalina water in one of my tanks as that alk was practically off the charts and would have caused major issues if used for a substantial water change in a smaller tank. I later found out that Catalina heavily filters, uses UV, and buffers their water with soda ash. I wouldn't touch that Catalina stuff again if they gave it away.
 
Mr. Bertoni: Thus far in this thread, I have not seen anyone promote one brand of marine salt over another. Thus far, some basic information has been offered to feed the minds of the inquisitive. Then only opinions.

What has deceloped is a series of personal attacks against me and many of the pioneering accomplishments ACP has done.

I have openly asked Boomer to support his accusations. Thus far all we (RC membership) has seen is an ongoing assault. This without any proof to his many statements.

When Boomer satisfies the answers to how 14 & 15 pound packages of like chemistry's ability to produce the same salinity at the same temperature (all in the name of reef aquarium chemistry), can the many other statements he has made be addressed.

Since this a reef aquarium chemistry forum, and I was accused of having a non existant brother-in-law working at a lab. that peformed work for another entity.... it would be to the best interest of this chemistry forum to have answers as to what port Boomer is pulling his information/statements from.

This in the name of honesty that can only benefit all those interested now and in the future.

We all appreciate the efforts of RC moderators with this and other tasks.

Perhaps you or another moderator could ask Boomer to support his many statements that I know to be false. Factual information would benefit this site, this forum as well as this thread.

Thank you in advance for your time and consideration.

BTW, it is not anonymous who performed the S-15 Report. The name of the funding organization and the labs that did the work has been clearly posted.
 
In my opinion, the name of the funding organization is not enough. The names of the people involved are what counts.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10552609#post10552609 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MDPinUSA
BTW, it is not anonymous who performed the S-15 Report. The name of the funding organization and the labs that did the work has been clearly posted.

According to your website, the S-15 report "was commissioned and paid for by Global Scientific Publications."

You also claim that "GSP is not in any way affiliated with any manufacturer of sea salts."

Your website claims the S-15 report is copyrighted in 1993 by Global Scientific Publications.

I believe that's the "anonymous" part that bertoni is talking about -- the mysterious Global Scientific Publications.
 
MDP,

Your very presence in this conversation is promoting your brand and company. If your perception of that is any different, you are deceiving yourself. And if you think our members view you as an impartial party just passing along useful information, you are very misguided there as well.

You also might be cautious in speaking on behalf of "we (RC membership)". It is probably best if you only speak for yourself because your opinions and interpretations do not agree with mine, and I imagine, many people that actually make up the "RC membership". I define the RC membership as those of us that are here every day discussing the hobby, not just showing up when the credibility of our brand and business are called into question and waving the S-15 in our faces.

Regards,
 
It's been a bit hectic the past day or two, both at home and the lab, so I'm bit behind. But do have a couple of thoughts before I take off again :D

Research information for which the people performing the research won't put their names too is generally disregarded by the scientific community. Myself, I find any research that the folks performing the research don't want to associate their name with to be something to take with a healthy grain of salt. Michael, despite your claims that it isn't an anonymous report, there are no actual names associated with that report other than your companies for buying the results to use for marketing. Like it or not, the skepticism that this causes is something your just going to have to live with. While I know you would like us all to take your word as good enough, you have to remember that from were we all sit you are marketing a product with that report. If we blindly believe the folks marketing product we all would be buying all sorts of the miracle drugs that find their way to our emails, after I've been told certain drugs have been proven by independent lab tests to enhance certain body parts ;)
 
Nin, sorry, but I am not following the anonymous thinking?

The name of the commissioner, funder and labs used should provide enough information for interested individuals.

RE: Mysterious GSP. I do not think it is resonable for anyone to do a Google search attemping to locate information regarding an off shore entity that existed over 10 years ago.

All these questions and concerns have been asked and answered countless times over the years.

This is a prime example of why GSP wanted to be shielded from indviduals asking the same questions, over and over.

All the information we have has been posted before, or answered here again.

E.g. If it is not on Google, it is not real?

I appreaciate your efforts. If you can, ask Boomer to provide proof that will answer #1 and #2 of the questions I asked him.

I joined this thread when there were 206 views. Currently there are well over 700 views. -- I think if and when Boomer can produce proof of his accusations.... RC'ers will be satisfied.

After that, I beleve we (RC) can move forward and clairify other statements he made.

Thank you. MDP
 
For what ever reason, I believe you knowingly and willfully posted misinformation and falsehoods on the worlds largest international web site directed to marine aquarium keepers regarding me personally as well as some of our accomplishments.


***Lets talk about the S-15 report and what is means and does not mean and get off the bother-in-law click. Is that your only reason for not answering questions ? The bother in-law click is all you may have on me. Give me that list with all my posted misinformation and falsehoods without gibberish and I will answer them.


You did not. In fact, you continue to post the same things over and over. As well as taking things out of context and/or put your own spin on what was clearly posted.


***Well that is because you never answer the questions asked. Read my post and answer all questions or leave and move on. Personnel attack, well you keep talking about how all others are taking gibberish but you are not. Apparently you are or think you are the only one that knows anything about salt mixes. I see and I'm sure most see it as you are the spinner, not me.

1) Please enlighten me as well as other RC'ers how 14 pounds of marine salts can hydrate the same amount of working solution (same salinity and same temperature) as 15 pounds of the same balanced marine salt chemistry?

***Balance is in the mind of the beholder

It is enlightening to discover which brands of salts have declined in integrity as well as lowered their net weight. E.g. 15 pounds of balanced marine salt chemistry is required to hydrate 50 US gallons of working solution at a SG of 1.024-1.025


When Boomer satisfies the answers to how 14 & 15 pound packages of like chemistry's ability to produce the same salinity at the same temperature (all in the name of reef aquarium chemistry), can the many other statements he has made be addressed.




***More of your spin where is it stated 14 lbs vs 15 lbs.

I said

That means nothing and nonsense . Just because some salt hydrates to 1.024 -1.025 ****means nothing in regards to its components****. Having a salt mix solution at 35 g /Kg = 1.024 or even 1.026 says nothing


Let the data speak for its self.

Now you are discrediting Dr. Hovanec and Inland. All salt studies are bad accept yours. Nobody else knows what they are doing. Do you have any proof about these studies being misleading/wrong/ errored other than just talk ? And who are you to judge them but we should not judge you. Looks like a double std to me.

These salt studies pretty much prove my point

Feature Article: Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study, Part I
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/11/aafeature1

Feature Article: Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study Part II
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1

A Chemical Analysis of Select Trace Elements in Synthetic Sea Salts and Natural Seawater
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2004/feature.htm


2) Provide any type of proof that I ever had or currently have a brother-in-law working in any capacity at Anresco Lab.

***Maybe it was not you brother in-law but some one else. Sorry, maybe this is an error but was what I was told. And in the past you have never answered the question. Are you happy now ?

You must support this statement before we (RC) can move on with the many other falsehoods you posted.

***More excuses, you always have one. I don 't have to prove anything. Besides you have proved nothing just talk, so you are no different than I.

User agreement, you always have an excuse of not reading the user agreement, after the fact. So don 't give me that crap. It is why you have been warned here by Bill. And why you were almost booted off RAG, and will if you ever enter RS or RF would be banned.


If you cannot provide documents or evidence to this claim, it can be simply regarded as one more of your posts without base and with malice. Therefore, it is highly possible a great number of other things you post on this and other threads (as well as other web sites) cannot be believed.

***It is your opinion vs my opinion and you can not do much about that. You are posting gibberish and doing the same as usually, refusing to answer the questions at hand as usually. Your excuses will be me asking the questions so you will not post answers as usually.

Don't be giving me that malice crap.



I believe you knowingly and willfully posted misinformation and falsehoods on the worlds largest international web site directed to marine aquarium keepers regarding me personally as well as some of our accomplishments


***That is nonsense and quite trying to make yourself, as usually, as the good guy that got beat up..............poor me


1. Where is a list of GSP people ?

2. Where is a signed /dated document from Anresco Lab. Looks like a claim to me IMHO.

3. Where is an signed document form Environmental Trace Substances Research Center. Sounds like a claim IMHO.

4. You raised clown is artificial seawater before Martin Moe, where is the proof. It is claim IMHO.


5. Where is proof from the Dr. Hovanec study

5. Where is the proof from and Inland

You ask me to provide documents where are yours ? All you do is make claims


Read and answer the question on the my past start

Oh, I forgot something

How are you going to ignore your own facts on your own website.


Boomer to support his many statements that I know to be false.

You have not supplied any/documents so what is your excuse ;) It is just you talking. What is good enough for the goose is good enough fro the gander.......correct.

Finally, I have never personnel attacked you. I disagree with your statements harshly, my right and think you talk gibberish. I can be just as arrogant as you. That is my opinion and there is nothing you can do about it. And if you feel the same about , which your posts show I could care less. You are no different.
 
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Michael,

You may have missed my post above but you should really stop with the "we" and "RC". It comes off as condescending like you are a preacher standing on a pulpit talking about his congregation.

And I'm not a believer.

I'll make my own decisions on when I'll move on from something or not. The only choice you get to make is if you want to continue this dialog and answer the questions honestly or continue with smoke, mirrors and artful dodging.

Hobbyists today are far more educated and informed than they were when the S-15 was created and they know when something doesn't pass the sniff test. Please give them a bit more credit that they are due.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10552898#post10552898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MDPinUSA
Nin, sorry, but I am not following the anonymous thinking.

Thank you. MDP

Sure you do, you just don't what to discuss it. :D

You want us to believe that you are the only person in the world who knows the true identities of "Global Scientific Publications" but that you promised them that you would never reveal their identities so that they wouldn't be pestered with emails.

You expect people to believe that this mysterious organization, that has never published ANYTHING other than this S-15 report, contacted you and offered you the results of their investigation only on condition that their identities remain secret forever.

You also expect people to believe that you had no contact whatsoever with this mysterious group of people before they undertook their research into salt mixes.

So the story here is that an anonymous group of people known as Global Scientific Publications decided on their own to fund a study that showed your company's products as superior to all of the other available products but you had nothing whatsoever to do with them or their study. And you didn't fund it. But you do admit, I believe, to concocting the scoring system, right? Congrats on the scoring system. It's hilarious. :D
 
My very presence is a direct result of having Boomer post somethings about me personally as well as ACP that are totally false.

Way back when, I was successfully breeding and raising clownfish through several generations. I then advertised and sold them. This long before the majority of todays marine keepers showed interest in marine aquaria, or were born.

Boomer says I am a liar! Prove it.

Boomer openly indicates he has no respect for patents or registered trade marks. IMO this is a dangerous position.

Boomer says this...then that.. but does not provide any concret evidence to support his past or current statements. Thus far, nothing. And, you have all seen me ask for this in a tactful professional manner.

Since I have not defamed or embellised any brand of marine salt, I am not selling anything.

I have been most careful not to use any brand names. This has been a bit challenging, as I was asked direct questions about one item or another.

I wish to follow Mr. Bertoni suggestion by dealing with facts.

Since some statements were made by Boomer, it would seem resonable that he defends his position and provide all interested with his basis for making a variety of statements that are totally unfounded.

I do not begin to speak for the RC community. I speak for myself. I speak for the betterment of our hobby and industry.

For those that continue to resist facts provided by an independent lab... so be it. Those that post with nothing but negativty are simply burning band width.

What ever stigma is associated or attached to documents are just that...... to documents. -- Where are Boomers documents that support his statement that I have a brother-in-law working at, or worked at Anresco?

What about 13 3/4#, 14# & 15# pound packages of like chemistry making the same salinity solution? It is not going to happen.

There are many other statements made that need to be proved (just as many are asking me for proof)... not continuing finger pointing... Thus far, no one has pushed the button!

The problem is one person has made some statements that cast an undersiving cloud that creates nothing but confusion. -- This knowing that information on an off shore entity created a decade ago cannot be found on... Google.

E.g. Do you still beat your wife? When one is approached with that question, one has to defend a non existant accusation.

I have stood tall and addressed each of Boomers statements. Now it is his turn to step up/fess up and provide proof to his many statements.

This is a chemistry forum for reef aquariums. AFTER Boomer provides solid proof to the two questions I asked this day, can he then provide proof for his many other statements.

--- I am being asked for proof... OK. How about Boomer? ---

Those that know me or have seen my posts understand that I only offer originally generated information. I do not copy and paste, then post and attempt to appear as an online aqua guru.

At least I have a marine aquarium. I have maintained many on a continous basis, and had them running non stop for decades. I am familiar with various equipment from the 70's, 80's, 90's to tday. I have hands on experience.

During the last decades I have learned a lot about salt water chemistry, animal husbandry, etc. If some wish me to share some of this information.... advise Boomer to prove what he has been posting.

If he cannot, then perhaps much of his other posts have no validity?

RE: Marine salt chemistry. There are a host of better questions that could be asked. E.g. The use of Ca cl v. Ca So4, the addition of anti caking additives, the presence of ammonia and/or phoshpate found in marine salts, etc. Most importantly why one form or another of ingredient is employed vs. another.

This has nothing to do with selling anything. By now you realize I will not indciate exactly how and why we do certain things... Just like every other salt maker. Some things are not offered up for general consumption.

What is the best salt... the one that fits into your budget.. the one that satisfies your needs... the one that excells over other brands. E.g. Door #1... door #2 ... or, the curtain. It is the choice of the buyer and their preceived needs.

After Boomer supports his slanderous statements, can more important and timely issues be addressed.
 
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I've been personally posting on this site for a couple of years. I have specifically devoted much of my time to the Reef Chemistry Forum.

I think I've done my time.

Randy would be embarrassed by this kind of back and forth gibberish.

I have never seen a thread closed in this forum, and I personally am embarrassed by this conversation.

I suggest this conversation ends and lets all get back to helping fellow reefers.

God, I wish I was a Mod, because I would have closed this thead 2 hrs ago.

Shame on you all................ :(
 
Bllly, I totallly understand your post.

Please consider, some things were said about me and ACP.

This is my concern.

Also... please understand. I am the only aquarist that has taken his hobby enjoyment to the level where I presently am.

I have great pride in what we are doing.

Thank you.
 
Heck,

I only answered the first time because the original poster asked if anyone used M.E. salt. Since I am a user of this particular brand, I posted my hands on experience with it.

For some reason, this then was turned into a "bash the S-15 report" thread. Either I am able to predict the future, or things are becoming mind numbingly predictable.

To the original poster of this thread: If you would like an unbiased and totally unscientific opinion of this brand, I will be happy to provide it to you. If you would like opinions by people that have admitted to never actually trying this product, read the past 4 pages; lot's of bickering about brother in laws, other equally laughable assays, and a whole lot of baseless accuasations and fingerpointing.

Billybeau1: You and I are on the same page. Thanks for your PM's.
 
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