Anyone use PhosGuard?
- Thread starter whiteshark
- Start date
<<< so what would you call the link i posted?
i quess you would call that "absolutly no data or scientific evidence"? >>>
Yes.......I see no evidence in that article that Phosguard or any other aluminum based phosphate media will leach phosphates/silicates back into the water column after it reaches its stauration point, nor does it clearly state or display evidence that Phosguard is not 'good' for corals other than general hearsay.
What it DOES show is that the author of that article used many words like: perhaps, possibly, not conclusive, may well be different, etc. Here's a paragraph:
<<< Significance of Aluminum Release from Phosguard
Is the amount of aluminum released from Phosguard significant? Moreover, is it adequate to explain the results on corals that have been reported by aquarists? This question is extremely difficult to answer without some biological experiments. The tests run above show reasonably high concentrations of aluminum. Possibly high enough to cause problems for the organisms shown in Table 1 . But these tests were carried out on a large amount of Phosguard in a small amount of water. Tests with larger volumes of water might well result in lower aluminum concentrations. Additionally, the exact nature of the aluminum in these tests may well be different than in the toxicity tests reported above. That is, the nature may be particulate vs. colloidal vs. soluble vs. complexed by organics, etc. >>>
Additionally, Dr. Shimek has reported significant levels of aluminum in Instant Ocean salt, and other reported tests show yet different results in various salt mixes. It also showa that many popular frozen foods contain significant amounts of aluminum in one form or another. So now I suppose everyone should also throw away all their IO salt and PhosGuard and frozen foods into the dumpster, along with anything else where some test shows it contains something that will hurt our tanks
What I do know is that I've used PhosGuard in my various tanks at the recommended dose on and off for over 10 yrs. with zero ill effects to any of my hard or soft coral or fish or anything else, and with excellent results. I've also used the iron based media (Rowaphos & Phosban) also with no ill effects and excellent results. But if someone somewhere says it's bad for my corals or could have ill effects, I guess I should just throw it all in the dumpster, right??
i quess you would call that "absolutly no data or scientific evidence"? >>>
Yes.......I see no evidence in that article that Phosguard or any other aluminum based phosphate media will leach phosphates/silicates back into the water column after it reaches its stauration point, nor does it clearly state or display evidence that Phosguard is not 'good' for corals other than general hearsay.
What it DOES show is that the author of that article used many words like: perhaps, possibly, not conclusive, may well be different, etc. Here's a paragraph:
<<< Significance of Aluminum Release from Phosguard
Is the amount of aluminum released from Phosguard significant? Moreover, is it adequate to explain the results on corals that have been reported by aquarists? This question is extremely difficult to answer without some biological experiments. The tests run above show reasonably high concentrations of aluminum. Possibly high enough to cause problems for the organisms shown in Table 1 . But these tests were carried out on a large amount of Phosguard in a small amount of water. Tests with larger volumes of water might well result in lower aluminum concentrations. Additionally, the exact nature of the aluminum in these tests may well be different than in the toxicity tests reported above. That is, the nature may be particulate vs. colloidal vs. soluble vs. complexed by organics, etc. >>>
Additionally, Dr. Shimek has reported significant levels of aluminum in Instant Ocean salt, and other reported tests show yet different results in various salt mixes. It also showa that many popular frozen foods contain significant amounts of aluminum in one form or another. So now I suppose everyone should also throw away all their IO salt and PhosGuard and frozen foods into the dumpster, along with anything else where some test shows it contains something that will hurt our tanks
What I do know is that I've used PhosGuard in my various tanks at the recommended dose on and off for over 10 yrs. with zero ill effects to any of my hard or soft coral or fish or anything else, and with excellent results. I've also used the iron based media (Rowaphos & Phosban) also with no ill effects and excellent results. But if someone somewhere says it's bad for my corals or could have ill effects, I guess I should just throw it all in the dumpster, right??
whiteshark
Active member
I would rather not take the chance. If there is even the slightest possibility it could release aluminum in levels toxic to my corals I wouldn't want to use it.
again, that was not a statement i made, or my concern with the use of aluminum based Phosphate removers. the scope of the article was what aluminum(phosguard) can/could do in seawater. i think it shows that there is a concern with its use with some corals.
i also have to admit that you are very good at trying to cloud the issue
phosguard not working for you? or market research?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7614078#post7614078
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7614078#post7614078
<<< also have to admit that you are very good at trying to cloud the issue >>>
No, I'm not trying to cloud any issues, just trying to point out that many people offer 'advice' just based on someone elses speculations and suppositions, or simply parroting whatever they hear someone else say without any real knowledge of, or firsthand experience with the actual product.
No, I'm not trying to cloud any issues, just trying to point out that many people offer 'advice' just based on someone elses speculations and suppositions, or simply parroting whatever they hear someone else say without any real knowledge of, or firsthand experience with the actual product.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7542577#post7542577
please admit you work for Seachem so i can go to bed
please admit you work for Seachem so i can go to bed
vessxpress1
Premium Member
I'm going to have to argue on Howards side here. I think that article 'clouded' the issue if anything did.
It admits that they don't know how aluminum affects corals biologically without testing and how much of a volume would it take to have ill affects?
I realize people are willing to sacrifice anything and no price is too high to pay for the best when it comes to their tanks, but sometimes it gets extreme.
Did it not say the phosguard used in the test was a much larger volume in comparison with the water than would be in an aquarium application. I only need a small bag of the stuff.
I use one small bag of it in a filter on my 38. I've used the stuff for years with no problems. I've got softies, LPS, and a large BTA, and haven't seen any problem. I think it's too easy to pass judgement on problems in this hobby when the actual problems could be any number of things. I just read that some guy is getting out of the hobby because chemi-clean crashed his tank. Possible? Maybe. Probable? I highly doubt it. I've triple dosed my tank, on consecutive days before, on advice from the LFS because that's what they do. Not a single thing looked the slightest bit out of the ordinary. Just cyano shriveled up and gone, fast.
A small (as recommended), well rinsed(as recommended), amount of phosguard has always kept my phosphates at 0 for a long time with no ill effects. That's my experience. I change it monthly. All of it looks to be the same size as when I put it in only they turn yellowish over time.
I'm not looking to start a war over this. If it makes people feel better to spend more money on phosphate removal media because other people do, than by all means. Maybe the stuff is better, but I'd like to see some more independent studies on it.
It admits that they don't know how aluminum affects corals biologically without testing and how much of a volume would it take to have ill affects?
I realize people are willing to sacrifice anything and no price is too high to pay for the best when it comes to their tanks, but sometimes it gets extreme.
Did it not say the phosguard used in the test was a much larger volume in comparison with the water than would be in an aquarium application. I only need a small bag of the stuff.
I use one small bag of it in a filter on my 38. I've used the stuff for years with no problems. I've got softies, LPS, and a large BTA, and haven't seen any problem. I think it's too easy to pass judgement on problems in this hobby when the actual problems could be any number of things. I just read that some guy is getting out of the hobby because chemi-clean crashed his tank. Possible? Maybe. Probable? I highly doubt it. I've triple dosed my tank, on consecutive days before, on advice from the LFS because that's what they do. Not a single thing looked the slightest bit out of the ordinary. Just cyano shriveled up and gone, fast.
A small (as recommended), well rinsed(as recommended), amount of phosguard has always kept my phosphates at 0 for a long time with no ill effects. That's my experience. I change it monthly. All of it looks to be the same size as when I put it in only they turn yellowish over time.
I'm not looking to start a war over this. If it makes people feel better to spend more money on phosphate removal media because other people do, than by all means. Maybe the stuff is better, but I'd like to see some more independent studies on it.
mbbuna,
Just out of curiousity let me ask you........have you ever actually used Seachems Phosguard (or any other major brand of aluminum based phosphate media) and experienced firsthand any temporary ill effects on your hard or soft corals, or done any specific and repeatable water tests on your tank after using an aluminum based phosphate media in recommended dosages to verify that Phosguard has in fact released harmful substances contributing to harming your corals...............ok, I thought so :lol:
Just out of curiousity let me ask you........have you ever actually used Seachems Phosguard (or any other major brand of aluminum based phosphate media) and experienced firsthand any temporary ill effects on your hard or soft corals, or done any specific and repeatable water tests on your tank after using an aluminum based phosphate media in recommended dosages to verify that Phosguard has in fact released harmful substances contributing to harming your corals...............ok, I thought so :lol:
I always use phosguard
I always use phosguard
I have always used phosguard and I have used Sea Gel which is a combo phosguard and carbon, with no ill effects on any of my marine life. All I know it keeps my phosphates at 0 and it is a lot less than Rowaphos, which is way to expensive for something that you have to replace!
I always use phosguard
I have always used phosguard and I have used Sea Gel which is a combo phosguard and carbon, with no ill effects on any of my marine life. All I know it keeps my phosphates at 0 and it is a lot less than Rowaphos, which is way to expensive for something that you have to replace!
<<< that so funny! Randy did tests for all of us. i take his Harvard educated word for it. >>>
He did?? Perhaps I read the wrong article but from what I read he actually did NOT test Phosguard in a tank and reported corals showing ill effects as a direct result of its use. What he did do was test Phosguard in a MUCH higher than recommended dose in a small water sample to see if it released aluminum.
Interesting how the 4 or 5 people in this thread who have actually USED the product report that it works well and have seen no ill effects from its use.........but I guess 'articles' are more conclusive than actual firsthand experience in their own tanks to some people, especially to those that haven't even used the product but will offer others their 'advice'.
He did?? Perhaps I read the wrong article but from what I read he actually did NOT test Phosguard in a tank and reported corals showing ill effects as a direct result of its use. What he did do was test Phosguard in a MUCH higher than recommended dose in a small water sample to see if it released aluminum.
Interesting how the 4 or 5 people in this thread who have actually USED the product report that it works well and have seen no ill effects from its use.........but I guess 'articles' are more conclusive than actual firsthand experience in their own tanks to some people, especially to those that haven't even used the product but will offer others their 'advice'.
outy
New member
give it a rest NOBODY with a great tank out of the hundreds here braggs about how phosguard keeps his tank free of phos for allot of reasons!
if your talking about using a media to reduce phos rowaphos is the prefered method phosban following second and only noobs with little knowledge use alumina based media
This is common knowledge this is not new!
the best way is either a fuge and or dripping kalk into your skimmer
i have used alumina based products in a pinch nobody said there bad there just not cost effective or trustworthy in a high dollar tank thats the problen! if you have a cheap setup and have good results adding more junk so be it But theres no use sticking up for or beating a dead horse alumina is noobish at best
if your talking about using a media to reduce phos rowaphos is the prefered method phosban following second and only noobs with little knowledge use alumina based media
This is common knowledge this is not new!
the best way is either a fuge and or dripping kalk into your skimmer
i have used alumina based products in a pinch nobody said there bad there just not cost effective or trustworthy in a high dollar tank thats the problen! if you have a cheap setup and have good results adding more junk so be it But theres no use sticking up for or beating a dead horse alumina is noobish at best
from the article
Conclusions
Aluminum is an ion that does not get much attention, and has no clear biological use in aquaria. It can, however, have an impact on aquarium organisms if elevated sufficiently over natural levels. Phosguard has been shown to release aluminum to artificial seawater. Further, it appears that the release of aluminum could be the cause of the effects that some folks have seen in aquaria when using aluminum-based phosphate and silicate absorbing materials. However, only a larger study could definitively demonstrate that to be the case.
Such biological effects have not been widely reported for the iron-based phosphate removers (e.g., Rowaphos and Salifert’s Phosphate Killer). Consequently, if you are interested in using phosphate-absorbing media, those latter types might be a better choice.
i hope Phosguard works out well for you
Conclusions
Aluminum is an ion that does not get much attention, and has no clear biological use in aquaria. It can, however, have an impact on aquarium organisms if elevated sufficiently over natural levels. Phosguard has been shown to release aluminum to artificial seawater. Further, it appears that the release of aluminum could be the cause of the effects that some folks have seen in aquaria when using aluminum-based phosphate and silicate absorbing materials. However, only a larger study could definitively demonstrate that to be the case.
Such biological effects have not been widely reported for the iron-based phosphate removers (e.g., Rowaphos and Salifert’s Phosphate Killer). Consequently, if you are interested in using phosphate-absorbing media, those latter types might be a better choice.
i hope Phosguard works out well for you
Dale Carlisle
New member
Isn't the question: Will aluminum negatively affect corals in the concentration that "may" be released by phosguard?
As stated, such a study has not been conducted so it seems that stating phosguard is harmful is here say.
P.S. What a totally arrogant post that was outy. When people use terms like noobs to bolster their own position they only show their own ignorance. Stick to the facts.
As stated, such a study has not been conducted so it seems that stating phosguard is harmful is here say.
P.S. What a totally arrogant post that was outy. When people use terms like noobs to bolster their own position they only show their own ignorance. Stick to the facts.
I use Phosguard in a tank with a few RBTA, a few clams, some stony corals, and Zoas. I use RowaPhos in my stony only tank. I have read every article on Aluminum Oxide and GFO Po4 removers that I could get my hands on. I feel that the choices I have made are good for the inhabitants of each tank. I have not seen any ill affects from the long term use of PhosGuard; I have used it for close to 2 years. I have used rowaphos with no ill effects either for a year. The clams are the reason I do not use GFO Po4 removes in my tank with clams, there are no softy in either tank either.
PhosGuard is less expensive to buy than RowaPhos, pound for pound. However pound for pound RowaPhos will absorb more Po4 than PhosGuard. So I think the saving of using PhosGuard is small and I end up changing if out more frequently (my time is worth something ).
There is no doubt in my mind that the misuse of either product will result in problems for the inhabitants of my tanks. Big companies want to sell you their product over and over again so the instructions are there to help you obtain desired results. Follow the instructions, use the proper amount. I believe that both products are good and they both have their place in reef aquaria.
Thank You,
David
PhosGuard is less expensive to buy than RowaPhos, pound for pound. However pound for pound RowaPhos will absorb more Po4 than PhosGuard. So I think the saving of using PhosGuard is small and I end up changing if out more frequently (my time is worth something
).There is no doubt in my mind that the misuse of either product will result in problems for the inhabitants of my tanks. Big companies want to sell you their product over and over again so the instructions are there to help you obtain desired results. Follow the instructions, use the proper amount. I believe that both products are good and they both have their place in reef aquaria.
Thank You,
David
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