I'm working on setting up my first seahorse tank and reading about CB vs WC seahorses. Captive bred animals have lots of advantages for feeding and care (as well as mitigating collection impacts), but I've read that they are more prone to infection. Some people suggest this is due in part to uneaten frozen food rotting in the tank (whereas WC mostly only eat live food so its less of a ). What about weakened immune systems due to inbreeding? Could that be a primary contributor? If so, careful record keeping and smart breeding could go a long way toward improving the health of seahorses.
Are CB seahorses inbred?
- Thread starter cmbspd
- Start date
Allmost
New member
No, Wild animals are used to being around pathogens, and bacteria and .... so the ones who get immune from it make it, others die ... natures game.
Captive breed ponies do not face pathogens through their life, so when/IF they do, there is a 50/50% chance of them making it ....
captive breed seahorses are although trained to eat frozen food, while Wild caught needs to be trained.
now, if a piece of Mysis is left uneaten, it will grow bacteria on it, if the CB seahorse eats the bacteria infected frozen after it has been left there, it is introducing bacteria into its system, there fore a chance of infection ....
I hope you got what I meant
go with Captive bread, and do not EVER mix them with Wild caught.
Captive breed ponies do not face pathogens through their life, so when/IF they do, there is a 50/50% chance of them making it ....
captive breed seahorses are although trained to eat frozen food, while Wild caught needs to be trained.
now, if a piece of Mysis is left uneaten, it will grow bacteria on it, if the CB seahorse eats the bacteria infected frozen after it has been left there, it is introducing bacteria into its system, there fore a chance of infection ....
I hope you got what I meant
go with Captive bread, and do not EVER mix them with Wild caught.
Allmost,
With all respect I understand _what_ you are saying, I'm just wondering if it is the explanation because I haven't seen any data supporting it. Increased disease susceptibility is a common consequence of inbreeding in many animals. If the "lack of exposure" hypothesis is correct, then challenging young CB's immune systems with pathogens would be a good way to induce the immunity that you suggest WC animals have (unless the WC animals are immune because they are the lucky 1% of offspring with the "healthy" genes to resist common pathogens that didn't die). I mean this in a positive way in that if that idea is correct then perhaps breeders could work out a way to safely introduce low levels of pathogens to effectively immunize young animals. Of course uneaten food breeds bacteria, but warm saltwater (and 70 is warm) is a great growth medium for many bacteria.
So, while I don't disagree that you might be correct, I also don't see evidence against inbreeding. Perhaps Peka or another breeder will chime in on how often wild gene lines are introduced.
With all respect I understand _what_ you are saying, I'm just wondering if it is the explanation because I haven't seen any data supporting it. Increased disease susceptibility is a common consequence of inbreeding in many animals. If the "lack of exposure" hypothesis is correct, then challenging young CB's immune systems with pathogens would be a good way to induce the immunity that you suggest WC animals have (unless the WC animals are immune because they are the lucky 1% of offspring with the "healthy" genes to resist common pathogens that didn't die). I mean this in a positive way in that if that idea is correct then perhaps breeders could work out a way to safely introduce low levels of pathogens to effectively immunize young animals. Of course uneaten food breeds bacteria, but warm saltwater (and 70 is warm) is a great growth medium for many bacteria.
So, while I don't disagree that you might be correct, I also don't see evidence against inbreeding. Perhaps Peka or another breeder will chime in on how often wild gene lines are introduced.
I would hope so too, but don't know. That is why I posed the question. Think about how many reef tanks have breeding pairs of clown fish. Now think about how many of those fish were purchased separately from different vendors, instead of together (and therefore likely to be siblings). In the case of clownfish, it seems to work okay because all of the highend morphs, like picassos, must be relatively inbred to maintain their colors. However, that might not be the case with seahorses.
To expose fry to pathogens to induce some immunity may work in theory but I doubt it would work in practice.
How could you expose them to all the possibilities, keep the numbers up, and still sell for the same price? It would cost time and money probably to do this, and large breeders especially won't want to increase their costs.
Net pen and tank raised are exposed to ocean water that is insufficiently treated to remove pathogens and chances of their survival in our tanks is less than the true CB ones for the most part. Their gene pool is much much more diverse than CB sources I would imagine, and it doesn't seem to make them more durable.
Also, the pathogens in any given area of the ocean are not the same from one local to another and that is why mixing seahorses from different breeding sources, wild, tank raised, or captive bred, can pose problems many times.
I think that exposing them to more pathogens means that they will retain those pathogens they grow up with, and with the conditions in our tanks just ripe for cultures of these pathogens, the numbers probably grow to beyond what many of the seahorses could handle.
How could you expose them to all the possibilities, keep the numbers up, and still sell for the same price? It would cost time and money probably to do this, and large breeders especially won't want to increase their costs.
Net pen and tank raised are exposed to ocean water that is insufficiently treated to remove pathogens and chances of their survival in our tanks is less than the true CB ones for the most part. Their gene pool is much much more diverse than CB sources I would imagine, and it doesn't seem to make them more durable.
Also, the pathogens in any given area of the ocean are not the same from one local to another and that is why mixing seahorses from different breeding sources, wild, tank raised, or captive bred, can pose problems many times.
I think that exposing them to more pathogens means that they will retain those pathogens they grow up with, and with the conditions in our tanks just ripe for cultures of these pathogens, the numbers probably grow to beyond what many of the seahorses could handle.
I do not introduce wild caught horses into my stock but I do get cb bred from other sources quite frequently in order to limit inbreeding. The great thing about this 'hobby' is that it opens the door for you to meet so many people with the same interests as you, therefore, I always have access to other CB horses. I believe Dan does introduce wildcaught but if I remember correctly, he quarantines them for a minimum of six months. Hopefully he will see this thread and correct me if I am wrong and provide some more insight....
DanU
New member
This topic gets kicked around from time to time.
From what I understand, some experiments have been done where seahorses were inbred for up to 7 generations without seeing issues. I don't know if this is correct or if it will hold true for all species because we try to avoid inbreeding as much as possible.
Every breeder as a different approach. When possible, we started with WC specimens. On occasion we have added WC into the mix but this is the exception rather than the rule. Managed correctly and barring disasters, it isn't necessary. This is especially true if you have multiple pairs of brood stock and put new pairs together from different lines.
A good breeder will also cull defects and mutations. It has become popular to sell these for a lot more money but we still resist and pull them. We try to remain somewhat of a purist and keep the lines clean. My fear in selling them is that folks will in turn breed them and then there will be a lot of mutated seahorses around. As a rule, I don't believe them to be as hardy.
Purchasing from different sources doesn't always guarantee different blood lines. Many breeders buy brood stock from other successful breeders, this happens at both the hobbyist and commercial levels. Even when buying from resellers, the seahorses may have been overstock that was sold off in large quantities to wholesalers and retailers or to wholesalers who then sold to retailers.
To say CB haven't been exposed to pathogens is a misnomer. CB seahorses can potentially be exposed to higher levels of pathogens than WC, however the range of pathogens they are exposed to is smaller. Any closed recirculating system can quickly have a build up of bacteria, fungi, viruses or ciliates. Many of these are ubiquitous and are ever present in small numbers. With high densities and/or poor husbandry, they can take off or take over. What they are not exposed to are parasites that require multiple hosts to complete their life cycle. Anyone who has tried to raise fry and lost them has seen a build up of bacteria or ciliates.
I don't believe in the idea of exposing a seahorse to pathogens in order to build up immunity. Immune systems are innate. If one was to expose them to say a certain species of bacteria, it may not infect the seahorse right away and be waiting for an opportunity to take off. Then when the seahorse becomes stressed from a stressful event or exposed to persistent low level stressors, the seahorse becomes sick and dies.
CB seahorses are easier than their WC counterparts in aquaria. Besides the obvious of already being trained to frozen foods, they are conditioned for the environment as that is all they have ever seen. They are used to higher densities. Sometimes WC never adapt, can sometimes be very difficult to convert to frozen foods, should go through a longer quarantine, be dewormed and may or may not breed in captivity. From experience, we found that when we purchased adult WC specimens the survival rate was very poor and few made good breeders. I suspect how they are collected, handling, feeding and stress play a major role in this. All specimens we collected ourselves did very well.
Dan
From what I understand, some experiments have been done where seahorses were inbred for up to 7 generations without seeing issues. I don't know if this is correct or if it will hold true for all species because we try to avoid inbreeding as much as possible.
Every breeder as a different approach. When possible, we started with WC specimens. On occasion we have added WC into the mix but this is the exception rather than the rule. Managed correctly and barring disasters, it isn't necessary. This is especially true if you have multiple pairs of brood stock and put new pairs together from different lines.
A good breeder will also cull defects and mutations. It has become popular to sell these for a lot more money but we still resist and pull them. We try to remain somewhat of a purist and keep the lines clean. My fear in selling them is that folks will in turn breed them and then there will be a lot of mutated seahorses around. As a rule, I don't believe them to be as hardy.
Purchasing from different sources doesn't always guarantee different blood lines. Many breeders buy brood stock from other successful breeders, this happens at both the hobbyist and commercial levels. Even when buying from resellers, the seahorses may have been overstock that was sold off in large quantities to wholesalers and retailers or to wholesalers who then sold to retailers.
To say CB haven't been exposed to pathogens is a misnomer. CB seahorses can potentially be exposed to higher levels of pathogens than WC, however the range of pathogens they are exposed to is smaller. Any closed recirculating system can quickly have a build up of bacteria, fungi, viruses or ciliates. Many of these are ubiquitous and are ever present in small numbers. With high densities and/or poor husbandry, they can take off or take over. What they are not exposed to are parasites that require multiple hosts to complete their life cycle. Anyone who has tried to raise fry and lost them has seen a build up of bacteria or ciliates.
I don't believe in the idea of exposing a seahorse to pathogens in order to build up immunity. Immune systems are innate. If one was to expose them to say a certain species of bacteria, it may not infect the seahorse right away and be waiting for an opportunity to take off. Then when the seahorse becomes stressed from a stressful event or exposed to persistent low level stressors, the seahorse becomes sick and dies.
CB seahorses are easier than their WC counterparts in aquaria. Besides the obvious of already being trained to frozen foods, they are conditioned for the environment as that is all they have ever seen. They are used to higher densities. Sometimes WC never adapt, can sometimes be very difficult to convert to frozen foods, should go through a longer quarantine, be dewormed and may or may not breed in captivity. From experience, we found that when we purchased adult WC specimens the survival rate was very poor and few made good breeders. I suspect how they are collected, handling, feeding and stress play a major role in this. All specimens we collected ourselves did very well.
Dan
mikencarol
Damn My Avatar Buggs Me
Appreciated.....
Appreciated.....
YES...Gregs right...Great Post Dan.....It is alot easier to understand and trust someone's opinion when you KNOW they are doing this stuff. The Books are OK....but we are fortunate to have some members who really share how to do it...IN PRACTICE...not just in theory...Thanks again DanU..............:thumbsup:
Appreciated.....
YES...Gregs right...Great Post Dan.....It is alot easier to understand and trust someone's opinion when you KNOW they are doing this stuff. The Books are OK....but we are fortunate to have some members who really share how to do it...IN PRACTICE...not just in theory...Thanks again DanU..............:thumbsup:
Tami, I think that WC were more prone to infections was primarily due to how they were handled and transported. By the time the aquarist got them, they were stressed, diseased and starved. And of course, they didn't recognize frozen as real food. CB seahorses, IMO, are more likely to be well acclimated to aquarium conditions, and not be stressed, diseased or starved. However, I've seen CB seahorses that arrived at LFS that didn't know how to care for them, go downhill just like WC (feeding unsuitable foods like flake or brine shrimp, keeping with unsuitable fish or corals, etc.). And before CB were widely available, I've received fresh caught WC erectus direct from the collector that did great, and weaned readily to frozen food.
TamiW
Seahorse Wrangler
Lisa! That is certainly true. I just wanted to point out that wild caught seahorses weren't less prone to infection than their captive bred counter parts. There are different challenges with CB's but on the whole they're much more bullet-proof. Generally if you get from a good breeder, there isn't crossing your fingers and hoping they don't die!
mollymonticello
Member
FWIW, a WC seahorse trained to eat frozen food is just as prone to infection from eating Vibrio contaminated frozen food. Also, IME WC and TR seahorses often carry pathogens like ciliates, internal parasites, etc. that are difficult to treat or just do not respond well to traditional medications available to hobbyists. If Vibrio is a concern, consider that many CB seahorses have been found to be asymptomatic carriers; their immune system helps keep infection at bay.
Aren't the H. fuscus CB in the US descended from a single pair? I heard that they now have problems with infertility due to inbreeding, and that's why they are so scarce now.
ScooterTDI
New member
From what I hear, ORA began their breeding program with only had a small number (perhaps a single pair) of H. fuscus . My ORA pair stopped breeding for unknown reasons and I haven't been able to get them breeding again, but I don't think that has anything to do with inbreeding. They certainly didn't have any fertility problems when they were breeding. FWIW, I think the H. fuscus being reluctant/inconsistent with regards to breeding has less to do with inbreeding than it does with environmental factors.
Scott
Scott
