Are Deep Sand Beds, DSBs, dangerous to use in a marine aquarium?

Sorry, but no. Sponges, gorgonians, and even macroalgae have always been abundant on healthy reefs. While certain inshore reefs have indeed seen degradation from land based nutrient inputs, a far larger problem has been a loss of natural algae grazers...the diadema wipeout (disease) in the mid 80's, and overfishing of parrot fish are most notable. That resulting lack of grazing has allowed algae (that was already quite abundant on healthy reefs) to begin to dominate on many reefs.
 
Naturally, these stages would overlap, and the exact species involved may vary greatly, but the above is a general representation of what happens on a coral reef as nutrient levels climb.

So..... If we start a reef tank with clean rock, clean sand, and clean water, we create an environment that closely resembles the reef at the beginning of the scenario above. Where it goes from there is in our hands. If we keep the system relatively clean, and low in nutrients, we can support a reef that closely mimics the reef at the beginning of the scenario above. The higher we allow the overall nutrient level to become, the more rotting organic matter we allow to accumulate, the more tiny poo eating infauna we support, the closer we push the system to the conditions of the reef at the end of the scenario above.

This is a bit of an oversimplification. While eutrophication has certainly caused problems for many reefs, a lot of experts attribute the damage seen on a global scale just as much (if not more) to climate change and overfishing.

It's also not accurate to describe a pristine reef as being free of algae, detritovores, or filter feeders.

I recently spent some time on Ningaloo Reef in WA, and it is about as pristine as pristine gets. Extremely few humans around, no farms, and strict environmental protection to the point where most boat traffic is prohibited and not even a single shell can be collected without cutting red tape. The nearest large human presence is hundreds of miles away.

There was plenty of algae growing, there were just also plenty of algae eating animals. Schools of parrots, angels, and tangs numbering well into the dozens would swim about scouring the reef and cleaning it of algae. There were green sea turtles that fed on larger growths of macroalgae and sea grasses. Filter feeders were abundant, because there was so much food in the water (in the form of plankton, marine snow, and bacteria) that it could actually be seen as a fine haze limiting visibility to under 50m in many places.

The sand (bordering right on giant growths of acroporids) was teaming with pods, worms, and god knows what else. Corals we think of as liking "dirty water" like some of the hardiest LPS and filter feeders were growing right next to, and often under corals we think of as liking "clean" water (acriporids).

Coral reefs are not nutrient poor environments. They are so unique, diverse, and densely packed with life because of how efficiently the scavenge and how tightly they recycle nutrients in the ocean. One could compare them to lush oases in an otherwise barren desert. In terms of primary productivity, the only ecosystem in the same league is the tropical rainforest. IIRC, coral reefs win in terms of biomass per cubic meter.

A reef is full of micro-niches, with many animals we think of as having fundamentally different care requirements living within feet to inches.

I saw many places where a giant growth of an SPS coral like hydnophora would have LPS corals like fungia, acans, or faviids living on the sand (yes, the sand) right under it, slightly shaded. On its very bottom, almost completely shaded, obligate filter feeders would grow. In the sand around it, there would be tridacnids, goby/shrimp burrows, wandering sand sifters, and PLENTY of creepy-crawlies ready to eat any organic matter that settles to the bottom un-noticed.

It was fascinating to see. I've never been to a fringing reef before, nor a reef that was so incredibly healthy, and it really made me rethink or abandon a lot of the paradigms of our hobby. It also made me start feeding my corals much more heavily.

I personally run a BB, but not because I'm scared that a DSB will crash my tank. I run a BB so that I can run more flow without needing to worry about sand storms.

I just think the notion that a sandbed with lots of critters to recycle nutrients, or a tank with constantly growing biomass is not somehow antithetical to what one sees on a natural reef. I'd wager that virtually all tanks hobbyists keep are lower nutrient (in terms of biomass or available coral food) per cubic meter than pretty much any wild reed. The challenge for the hobbyist is keeping those nutrients in the right form (not pests), which can be a bit more challenging to accomplish in captivity.
 
Excellent post Grok!

Did you ever do any night dives? The number of critters zipping about in the water is amazing. The thing that surprised me the most in all the dives I did off the coast of Queensland was the amount of detritys (marine snow) in the water.

I was told not to stick my hands in the sand because the sand is teaming with all sorts of stinging critters. You don't really see anything on the sand during the day, but at night.

Check out this video from Komodo reef in Indonesia. Look at all the stuff floating in the water and all the bugs zipping about.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/stunning-time-altered-video-of-komodo-reef-life

Here is an interesting article on the power of grazers driven by global warming:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/tropical-herbivores-are-mowing-down-temperate-kelp-forests

It would be interesting to know what percentage of vertebrates and invertebrates on a reef are dedicated algal grazers.
 
It would be interesting to know what percentage of vertebrates and invertebrates on a reef are dedicated algal grazers.

Don't know the numbers offhand, but consider all the algae grazing snails, limpets, chitons, multiple species of urchins, some polychaetes, mithrax crabs, large schools of tangs, parrot fish, some damsels...

I can remember just before the Diadema disease spread to the Caribbean and the Bahamas. You couldn't find a single nook or cranny on those reefs that wasn't loaded with Diadema, and there were also plenty of pencil urchins and echinometra rock boring urchins to be found on the reef.
 
Don't know the numbers offhand, but consider all the algae grazing snails, limpets, chitons, multiple species of urchins, some polychaetes, mithrax crabs, large schools of tangs, parrot fish, some damsels...
That is exactly what I was thinking. Seems to me it would be a significant portion of the reef's biomass. If you add to that detritivores...
 
Excellent post Grok!

Did you ever do any night dives? The number of critters zipping about in the water is amazing. The thing that surprised me the most in all the dives I did off the coast of Queensland was the amount of detritys (marine snow) in the water.

I was told not to stick my hands in the sand because the sand is teaming with all sorts of stinging critters. You don't really see anything on the sand during the day, but at night.

Check out this video from Komodo reef in Indonesia. Look at all the stuff floating in the water and all the bugs zipping about.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/stunning-time-altered-video-of-komodo-reef-life

Here is an interesting article on the power of grazers driven by global warming:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/tropical-herbivores-are-mowing-down-temperate-kelp-forests

It would be interesting to know what percentage of vertebrates and invertebrates on a reef are dedicated algal grazers.

I don't have a scuba certification, I was just snorkeling and taking advantage of my lung capacity when I wanted to scope out the bottom.

I did spend some time looking in the water at night time, and it was LOADED. I imagine visibility at night would be 20m at most in many areas of the reef. The amount of little swimmers in the water was pretty incredible.

At some point I'd like to find a way to set up some sort of plankton generating fuge for my system, it's just not #1 on the to-do list. Then again, I could probably have a plankton generating fuge the same volume of the DT and not come even remotely close to what I saw in the wild.

Virtually every invert we keep in our tanks is at the very least an omnivore. IME, even the majority of hitchhiking Xanthid crabs that give people nightmares tend to lean more towards herbivores. I know my "Satanic Crabs" (Actaeodes tomentosus) spend the better part of the night out and about scraping algae off of rocks. They'll eat meat if I hand it to them, but they seem to totally ignore snails, corals, anemones, shrimp, etc.

Even some planktivorous fishes enjoy pecking at algae from time to time.

Over time, I've become more and more convinced that aquarists tend to overvalue nutrient control as a means of fighting algae, and undervalue good ole-fashioned herbivores.
 
I don't have a scuba certification, I was just snorkeling and taking advantage of my lung capacity when I wanted to scope out the bottom.
Scuba on the GBR was a bucket list item for me.

I did spend some time looking in the water at night time, and it was LOADED. I imagine visibility at night would be 20m at most in many areas of the reef. The amount of little swimmers in the water was pretty incredible.
Visibility was zero without a light the night we went down. Following the mooring line down was creepy. Thinking about that dive puts a big grin on my face.
Virtually every invert we keep in our tanks is at the very least an omnivore. IME, even the majority of hitchhiking Xanthid crabs that give people nightmares tend to lean more towards herbivores. I know my "Satanic Crabs" (Actaeodes tomentosus) spend the better part of the night out and about scraping algae off of rocks. They'll eat meat if I hand it to them, but they seem to totally ignore snails, corals, anemones, shrimp, etc.
On a side note, I read something the other day that clowns were primarily corprophages.
 
Okay....... Lets approach this from a slightly different angle.


As others have pointed out, that whole post was a major mischaracterization of reef ecology.

Further, I've noticed a repeating trend of the anti-sand bed crowd to consistently use loaded terms like "dirty", "rot", "filth" etc. to describe sand beds, while contrasting them with the "clean" state of a bare bottom tanks.

A) those terms are more or less meaningless from an ecological point of view (except maybe rot), whether you're talking about a tank or a coral reef

And B) they are value laden, non-neutral terms that to me, indicate an emotional perspective, not a factual or rational perspective. "Filth" is bad. "Dirty" is bad. These imply something negative that must be unilaterally rejected. "Clean", however, is always good. The fact that the same terms society uses to describe sexual deviance are being applied to sand beds should raise a red flag for everybody.

There is no such thing as "dirty" from an ecological point of view.
 
I really hate it when I agree with Bill, but I actually do in this post.

Sponges, gorgonians, and even macroalgae have always been abundant on healthy reefs. While certain inshore reefs have indeed seen degradation from land based nutrient inputs, a far larger problem has been a loss of natural algae grazers...the diadema wipeout (disease) in the mid 80's, and overfishing of parrot fish are most notable. That resulting lack of grazing has allowed algae (that was already quite abundant on healthy reefs) to begin to dominate on many reefs.

I dove on the outer Islands of Hawaii last year and those reefs are the worst reefs I have ever dove on. Nothing but hair algae, lionfish, morays and moorish Idols that live on the dying algae that covers everything and crown of thorn starfish looking for the few remaining corals to decimate. I dove there 40 years ago and the reefs looked pristine then. The vast schools of tangs are reduced to a few individuals. I only saw one slug but the place is covered in urchins and little else.


Spotted moray, if you can see him


An urchin paradise.


Visability stinks.


Loaded with turtles as the sharks are gone so they have no predators. I didn't see one shark where in Tahiti you have a problem jumping off the boat so you don't land on one.

Very disappointing place to dive.
 
There is work out there strongly suggesting that high iron levels from shipwrecks contributes heavily to the demise of central pacific reefs,( search Balck Reefs) including the line islands of Hawaii. I think it's important to consider that it is not all about phosphate as some have argued :

http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/v6/n3/full/ismej2011114a.html

http://coralreefsystems.org/sites/coralreefsystems.org/files/12_linda_kelly_v2.pdf

http://rjd.miami.edu/conservation/black-reefs-threaten-coral-diversity-in-the-line-islands

There is also work out there strongly suggesting that nitrogen is a key player in algae growth and it draws it from the substrate and the water column ; perhaps more so more than at least one poster gives it credit for:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877343513001917
 
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When that research first started coming out it made me wonder about our liberal use of GFO in the hobby, and whether some of the problems people see is related to large doses of iron being added to our systems.
 
Off at a bit of a tangent but considering there's a lot of recycling of food going on with DSBs, rather than siphoning away etc, do folks still add trace elements considering the high proportions of traces in a lot of foods? Would these traces be sucked into the substrate (unlikely I would have thought) or released?
 
Never found a need to add trace elements, other than Fe in systems growing lots of algae and/or seagrass. That goes for both DSB and non DSB systems. Feeding and water changes takes care off all other than the Ca, Mg and alk needs IME.
 
What a wonderful thread! I appreciate the insightful experiences of the "professionals" who are also hobbyists. After 29 pages of input I remain convinced of the benefits of a DSB that is slowly replaced (1/4 of the bed each year after the first 4 years). If, at a very practical or "vulgar" level, I am misreading the recommendations please clarify.
 
My corals( awide variety) many sps do fine with no trace elementswith or without deep sand. I feed heavily and do 1% dailly water changes which seems to take care of it.. I don't think trace elements will settle into a sand bed. Bacteria and other organisms will pick them off in large measure,imo.
 
Never found a need to add trace elements, other than Fe in systems growing lots of algae and/or seagrass. That goes for both DSB and non DSB systems. Feeding and water changes takes care off all other than the Ca, Mg and alk needs IME.

I apologize for not taking the time to research this, but how about a picture to show what a tank looks like when you add no trace elements . . .
 
I apologize for not taking the time to research this, but how about a picture to show what a tank looks like when you add no trace elements . . .

Hi Joe,

This was one of my favorites, a lagoon set up. Ran nicely for a number of years, until I had to tear it down to move.

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I'll try dig through some old files for some shots from the reef when I get a bit more time.
 

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I really hate it when I agree with Bill, but I actually do in this post.



I dove on the outer Islands of Hawaii last year and those reefs are the worst reefs I have ever dove on. Nothing but hair algae, lionfish, morays and moorish Idols that live on the dying algae that covers everything and crown of thorn starfish looking for the few remaining corals to decimate. I dove there 40 years ago and the reefs looked pristine then. The vast schools of tangs are reduced to a few individuals. I only saw one slug but the place is covered in urchins and little else.


Spotted moray, if you can see him


An urchin paradise.


Visability stinks.


Loaded with turtles as the sharks are gone so they have no predators. I didn't see one shark where in Tahiti you have a problem jumping off the boat so you don't land on one.

Very disappointing place to dive.

This is exactly what I saw in Antigua last February. I was very disappointed. It was mostly over run with Seargent fish
 
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