Aspartic Acid in the aquarium

If it is true what the two or so last sentences say (see above post) then it is in favor of the opinion that a organic matrix (and therefore aspartic acid) is essential for bio-mineralization in corals.

If that is true and if corals grow in our aquariums then there are one or more sources of aspartic acid or its precursors in the aquarium (e.g. hydrolysation of food proteins). But again the aspartic acid input/production might be too low and thus be a limiting facor in bio-mineralization in aquariums.
 
Habib:

Interesting information!

Good to see some background research behind your products.

Having said that, many advanced aquarists have a healthy skepticism of products that profess wonderful results. Consider another vendor's "Vital" products.

We've been conditioned by each other and our experts to:
1) Stay away from snake oil products (not saying your's are, by the way) :).
2) Trace element dosing may result in toxic build up of those elements.
3) Don't put anything in your reef that you cannot measure.
4) All you need is a calcium reactor or limewater and some alkalinity and calcium supplements.

As far as I can tell, your products have not been widely available here in the US. Thus, not much experience among us reefers. Do you have any research or photographic examples of the use of your products? Are there any potential negative effects of your products?

Finally, when are you going to have a web site for Salifert products? Many times, I've seen where test instructions have gotten lost and a web site reference would be a great help. :)

Thanks for all the information!
mgk
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by mgk65
We've been conditioned by each other and our experts to:
1) Stay away from snake oil products.

At least this particular product has some basis for its formulation.

2) Trace element dosing may result in toxic build up of those elements.

No trace elements in aspartic acid (C4H7NO4), with the exception of possibly increased nitrate/nitrogen it should be rather harmless as it likely would be broken down into it's components if not utilzed consisting of hydrogen, carbon, and nitrogen.

3) Don't put anything in your reef that you cannot measure.

It would be nice if we were to have some readings of natural levels as well as tank levels, hint, hint. ;)

4) All you need is a calcium reactor or limewater and some alkalinity and calcium supplements.

Has always worked for me as well, still willing to give this one a whirl as I have not figured out any downside to trying it out, kind of like adding acetic acid to a kalk mix. :)

Habib-
Regarding the calcium reactor, as the media is dissolved will it release aspartic acid or has it already been broken down into something else? Also, what is the stability like for aspartic acid at tank pH 8.2-8.4 and a reactor pH of 6.8? FWIW, if it were me I would probably look at marine plants and algae as possible sources of aspartic acid both in the wild and in our tanks but that is just a guess.
 
Above all, I do not mean to state or imply that Salifert products are snake oil! :)

I commend you for showing us your research.

mgk
 
Habib,

Curse ... you've nicely avoided the comparison between Marine deluxe and Coralline AminoAcids :( I asked for a couple of reasons, firstly I'm pretty familiar with the affect that Marine Deluxe has on my tank. There are ingredient classes in it that I'd rather not have but the effect of coral growth rate is visually apparent and that is with a reasonably significant feeding of frozen food blend (similar to Borneman's recipe) anyway (approx 0.1 gram per litre of tank water).

Thus, I am reasonably comfortable with the idea that an appropriately formulated AA solution is of benefit to my tank.

The Salifert product appears to be well thought out, hence my interest in changing my amino acid product to one without some of the stuff "German" aquarists consider "essential".

BTW, no mention so far of taurine ??? .... surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet since I believe is it used by the corals to control their zooxanthellae's release of "nutrients".
 
Curse ... you've nicely avoided the comparison between Marine deluxe and Coralline AminoAcids

Yes, I did my best to avoid it:D

BTW, no mention so far of taurine ???

Now it is my turn: Curse...:(

None of our product contains Taurine. Taurine is a non-protein building amino acid and might be beneficial also to fish (a lot of taurine in the mucous layer of fish) especially when they are stressed or have external parasites.

A new testing facility is being set up and should be fully operetaional end of August, then new experimets a.o. with taurine will be conducted.

coral growth rate is visually apparent and that is with a reasonably significant feeding of frozen food blend (similar to Borneman's recipe)

So if I understand correctly then you use Marine deLuxe together with Borneman's recipe???

Where can I find his recipe (I did a search here but did not find it).

After I have this information I can discuss about coral feeding and differences between Marine deLuxe and our products.

By the way how is it going with you friend's tank parameters?
 
mkg,

Eric Borneman's food recipe is available in his book, Aquarium Corals, and a version of it is available here:

Thanks a lot!

Eric mentions to take a whole fresh sea fish, could also be a 10 feet shark:D

I will respond to your other posts ASAP.
 
Habib,

Correct. I feed 40 grams (roughly spilt 20g AM, 20g PM) of a variation of the Bormeman recipe and then at night add Marine deluxe. approx 500 ml live phytoplankton is also added per day.

Anyway, I'm off to the airport, ik zal dit morgen met u bespreken
 
I think very likely as long we don't know what the exact source of aspartic acid is.

Looked into this a little bit and found that cyanobacteria (or dead cyanobacteria) would be a very likely candidate for NSW aspartic acid. Cyanobacteria produce a unique compound, cyanophycin, used as a storage form of nitrogen, basically this polypeptide is used as its energy reserve. They are the only organisms on earth known to synthesize cyanophycin, a polypeptide storage polymer composed of arginines linked to carboxyl groups of aspartates. The polypeptide is made not by ribosomes but by the enzyme cyanophycin synthetase.

I did notice that whatever strain(s) of phytoplankton that ESV uses contains both the aspartic acid and arginine, they do not list what species is actually used though. ESV SDMP profile is: Cobalt, Copper, Iodide, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Selenium, Silicon, Tin, Vanadium, Zinc, Vitamins A/E/B12/C, Thiamin, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, Folic Acid, Choline, Niacin, Aspartic Acid, Threonine, Serine, Glutamic Acid, Proline, Glycine, Alanine, Cystine, Valine, Methionine, Isoleucine, Leucine, Tyrosine, Phenylalanine, Lysine-HCL, Histidine-HCL, Arginine-HCL, Tryptophan, Calcium, Potassium, Phosphorus, Sodium, Magnesium, Sulfur, and Chloride.
 
Looked into this a little bit and found that cyanobacteria (or dead cyanobacteria) would be a very likely candidate for NSW aspartic acid.

Cyanophycin is as you already said composed of asp and arg.
It is a simple polymer of asp, and each aspartate residue contains an arg molecule.

This polymer can constitute up to 10% of the cell mass.

When cyanobacteria start to starve they use this as a nitrogen source. So before they would die because of starvation they will have consumed this polymer leaving no asp.

The arg (arginine) from this polymer is hydrolyzed to give another amino acid ornithine resulting in the production of ATP. This is a source of ATP during dark periods.

I was aware of this polymer but I personally doubt if this is a primary source of asp to corals in aquariums. In nature it might be a likely source if there would be proof that scleractinian corals ingest cyanobacteria. Of soft corals it is known that despite a higher abunancy of cyanobacteria they preferably ingest phytoplankton.

In an earlier post I already mentioned that asp can also be synthesized from some other amino acids and some other compounds as well.

phytoplankton that ESV uses contains both the aspartic acid and arginine

Many proteins will contain asp but it is also important to know what the amount is. It is also important to know if it can be ingested or transported through the tissue of corals. Proteins generally are too large to be transported through the tissue.

If it is ingested then it is important to know if the coral has the appropriate enzymes to cleave that protein or digest the package in which the protein or asp is contained. Package might e.g. be the cell wall of algae.

FWIW asp is prepared industrially a.o. by microbial fermentation.
 
Hoi Andy,

Even een vraagje tussendoor:

Which phytoplankton species do you culture?
Also at what salinity are you culturing them and do you use the f/2 formula?

What is your tank volume and how much marine deluxe do you add?

Dank je.
 
Habib,

Hier is uw antwoord :)

My tank is 121 x 74 x 61 cm, Sump is 86 x 61 x 25 cm. Roughly speaking I'd guess at around 400 litres net.

For phyto I have two cultures, Nannochloropsis and Tetraselmis. I use S=35 for the culture water and a variation of Walnes I think (http://www.cellpharm.co.uk/aquarium.htm)

Marine deluxe is dosed at 20 ml per night.

alstublieft :smokin:
 
Originally posted by Habib
This polymer can constitute up to 10% of the cell mass.

That would be a lot of asp. if you consider what the biomass of cyanobacteria is in the ocean and in reef areas, would it not?

Since cyanobacteria are the primary input of nitrogen into the food chain of a reef ecosystem and apparently produce and sequester quite a bit of this amino acid into their mass to perform this function, I personally do not feel it would be a big stretch to suggest they could possibly be a primary source of the asp. although likely indirectly such as is the case with nitrogen. No proof either way of course, just don't feel it is a stretch. :D

When cyanobacteria start to starve they use this as a nitrogen source. So before they would die because of starvation they will have consumed this polymer leaving no asp.

How many cyanobacteria cells are starved versus dying from another cause? I am sure many die from other causes such as predation, salinity stress, UV exposure, etc.. When a cyanobacteria cell is consumed by the various zooplankton (amphipods and copepods being pretty good cyanovores) what becomes of the asp.? I would assume since asp. is a non-essential amino it probably would be released/pooped into the water coumn, no?


I was aware of this polymer but I personally doubt if this is a primary source of asp to corals in aquariums. In nature it might be a likely source if there would be proof that scleractinian corals ingest cyanobacteria.

Obviously, aquarium versus nature are two different ball games. Even "if" asp. entered the food chain and ultimately the water column through cyanos, most people I know do not set-up a tank with a section devoted to periphyton turfs and slime mats. Some folks seem to do it unwillingly, but that is another story. :D

Above somewhere you mentioned in some tanks with "other problems" the results were not the same after additions, what were the other problems you referred to? Just curious.

It would not be necessary for the scleractin corals to ingest the cyanobacteria themselves, but rather ingest zooplankton cyanovores, no? All that would be reqired is for the asp. to be produced and sequestered by the cyano, consumed by a zooplanktor which would then consumed by the corals, basically the same chain of events in which Nitrogen enters the food chain.


It is also important to know if it can be ingested or transported through the tissue of corals. Proteins generally are too large to be transported through the tissue.

If it is ingested then it is important to know if the coral has the appropriate enzymes to cleave that protein or digest the package in which the protein or asp is contained. Package might e.g. be the cell wall of algae.

Good point....I have no idea??? Since I did not re-read all of the abstracts above before starting my response, humor me on this one please if it states it above. How does the aspartic acid enter the matrix? Is it through the tissues or externally at the site of calcification, or unknown? It sounds like from your own tests it is possibly externally, or did the labeled asp. move through the tissue first? Again...should have re-read the whole thread first, sorry. :)

Thanks for the banter!! ;)
 
mgk,

We've been conditioned by each other and our experts to:
1) Stay away from snake oil products (not saying your's are, by the way) .
2) Trace element dosing may result in toxic build up of those elements.
3) Don't put anything in your reef that you cannot measure.
4) All you need is a calcium reactor or limewater and some alkalinity and calcium supplements.

1) It is always good to be careful in adding anything to the tank.
First question to be asked is do I really need it and what is the scientific background for adding it?
The second one is will it be save to add it?

2)If a trace element is designed properly then the chance that a toxic build-up will result is extremly small.
For example manganese is rapidly removed from the system and iron precipitates already in a very low concentration. I personally prefer to have a some iron precipitate present in the tank.

3) There are so many things which we can not measure and which we add to the tanks (e.g. food)

4) I think that if the media in the calcium reactor would be 100 % pure calcium carbonate and no food would be added then it soon would give problems. Also if all you need is what you said in point 4 then a salt mix with just the major elements (>10 ppm) would be good enough.

As far as I can tell, your products have not been widely available here in the US. Thus, not much experience among us reefers. Do you have any research or photographic examples of the use of your products? Are there any potential negative effects of your products?

We have difficulty in meeting the demand in the USA which grows steeply. Especially the test kits are being sold pretty good. The supplements are getting popular as people start to understand/appreciate the high concentration (e.g. calcium 160000 ppm , alkalinity 250 ml = 3000 meq/L) and their purity.

All in One is also getting very popular which is calcium acetate based (long before people started to talk about adding vinegar to klakwasser). This one also has strontium in the right proportions and conatins also some trace elements.

If the directions are followed then there are no potential negative effects.

All supplements are based on many measurements on depletion rates and incorporation in corals and biological importance.

However, the (biological) importance of strontium and iodine species is still a point of discussion.


Finally, when are you going to have a web site for Salifert products? Many times, I've seen where test instructions have gotten lost and a web site reference would be a great help.

I agree. It will be given a priority.


Thanks for all the information!

You are welcome:)
 
Andy,

I almost finished my reply to you and then the computer got jammed and lost everything:( .

Thanks for the info on the way you feed your tank. Forunately you cultivate algae at proper salinity and not like some people at at something like S=20.

You asked for a comparison between our Salifert products and marine deluxe.
To tell you the truth I bought atleast 5 bottles in 4 or 5 years period and I noticed that each bottles ingredeints were different. So either they changed their formula several times or each batch or each bottle is different. This makes a comparison difficult.

But in general in marine deluxe there are both dissolved and particulate substances. Lots of iron, lots of chloride (NaCl?), "high" consumption of permanganate,......

Coralline AminoAcids (BioCoral) has only dissolved substances or substances which will dissolve when dosed.
Besides water it contains aminoacids (aspartic acid very high), glucose-amine, some important organic precursors,........

So it is in many respect different from marinedeluxe (of which I don't know if and how much aspartic acid it contains).

Another product of ours is called CoralFood. That one would come closer to marine deluxe with regards to dissolved and particulate substances since it contains amino acids, peptones, particulate food, minerals,.......

I hope to have given the information you wanted.
 
Habib:

Thanks for the answers!

Couple of more questions:

Have you noticed any strange algae using the calcium acetate? I was getting some strange algae patches on the sand when I was spiking my kalkwasser with vineger.

Can you summarize your additives and what they are good for?

What would you recommend for an aquarium dominated by stoney corals? Calcium and alkalinity supplementation are currently being provided by kalkwasser and Seachem Reef Buffer/Reef Builder/Reef Advantage. Soon to have a calcium reactor on-line.

Where are your additive products available? I would like to try them, and need to find where to purchase.

mgk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

R
The Role of Magnesium Salts in Coral Reef Health and Restoration
Replies
0
Views
877
runfucamg
R
Niven
I'm back....and ready to jump back in, feet first in the deep end, speedo, everything!
2
Replies
20
Views
439
vlangel
vlangel
R
LFS can order "red" or "blue" peacock mantis?
Replies
2
Views
79
game misconduct
G
davisl
SOLARIS PFOaquatics with I5 Power Supply - AUTO settings question, there a manual?
Replies
5
Views
585
oreo57
oreo57
DPauley
Bonnethead Shark Collection and Care in Home Aquaria
Replies
3
Views
870
Dr. Reef
Dr. Reef
Back
Top