Aspartic Acid in the aquarium

Saltshop:

Now you have been sent away from the Coral Forum you might be getting bored. So........

That would be a lot of asp. if you consider what the biomass of cyanobacteria is in the ocean and in reef areas, would it not?

I would say a lot of Cyanophycin which is not the same as asp.:)

what becomes of the asp.? I would assume since asp. is a non-essential amino it probably would be released/pooped into the water coumn, no?

non-essential means can be produced from other substances. I don't know what is pooped out. Do you?

Above somewhere you mentioned in some tanks with "other problems" the results were not the same after additions, what were the other problems you referred to? Just curious

A lot of phosphate and other things skewed up... Asp is not a miracle:D


It would not be necessary for the scleractin corals to ingest the cyanobacteria themselves, but rather ingest zooplankton cyanovores, no? All that would be reqired is for the asp. to be produced and sequestered by the cyano, consumed by a zooplanktor which would then consumed by the corals, basically the same chain of events in which Nitrogen enters the food chain.

Yes, if aspartic acid or a precursor is present. In the precursor case cynaos are not at all necessary.


Since I did not re-read all of the abstracts above before starting my response

Neither did I:D


It sounds like from your own tests it is possibly externally, or did the labeled asp. move through the tissue first?

These were not my own tests. Asp can be taken up from the surrounding water and brought very fast where it has to be.
 
mgk:

Have you noticed any strange algae using the calcium acetate? I was getting some strange algae patches on the sand when I was spiking my kalkwasser with vineger.

No never seen algae when adding calcium acetate. Could it have been a coincidence in your case?
Or perhaps the amount dosed at a time or perhaps some other things besides acetic acid in the vinegar you used.
It could also have been an inorganic impurity in the kalkwasser made bio-available through acetate.

Can you summarize your additives and what they are good for?

I don't think thid forum is the right place for such a summary. I will e-mail you some information soon.

What would you recommend for an aquarium dominated by stoney corals? Calcium and alkalinity supplementation are currently being provided by kalkwasser and Seachem Reef Buffer/Reef Builder/Reef Advantage. Soon to have a calcium reactor on-line.

I think that just two products (of which only one on a regular basis) would be needed. Will e-mail that too.

Where are your additive products available? I would like to try them, and need to find where to purchase.

I would have to ask the master-distributor in the states if they know someone near you. WV is West-Virginia?
 
No never seen algae when adding calcium acetate. Could it have been a coincidence in your case?
Or perhaps the amount dosed at a time or perhaps some other things besides acetic acid in the vinegar you used.
It could also have been an inorganic impurity in the kalkwasser made bio-available through acetate.

It's possible! :)


I would have to ask the master-distributor in the states if they know someone near you. WV is West-Virginia?

West Virginia is correct. National mail order would be good too. We don't have much in reef stores around these parts. :)

mgk
 
.Could Aspartic Acid be used to disolve more calcium hyroxide instead of vinegar?

I expect so, though I'm not sure how soluble calcium aspartate is at high pH. Even if you could, however, the amount of aspartic acid that would be needed would be large. Maybe (likely) more than you'd want to dose. It's molecular weight is quite a bit higher than acetic acid, so you need much more, on a weight basis, than you'd need of acetic acid, and people often dose multiple grams of acetic acid per day to a normal reef tank when using this method.
 
How about peptidoglycan then? :D Pretty common substance in the marine/reef world. I did notice in one of the oceanography texts it is mentioned that the majority of aspartic acid as part of the DOM fraction is in the form of D-asp rather than L-asp which suggests its source is from bacterial decomposition rather than an organism producing it and excreting it into the water column. Also of note was that another of the common foods we use here- Nori has a fair amount of aspartic acid (.01-.03g/g), so I guess if you have some Nori decomposing now and then you are probably releasing a little D-asp, correct? ;)

FWIW, I actually did order some of the product to try out so I must not think it is a bad idea...would still like a little more data such as what is the natural range versus what is in our tanks, is it actually depleted at a rate beyond what is naturally produced in a glass box? Does what you put into the tank make a difference ie. a tank with lots of macro algae, regular feedings of nori and phytoplankton make a difference?

Also, just in case it was a language barrier thing from the other forum... when he said "you go" and "thatta way" it was meant as encouragement for some of the proper questions to ask in order to ID an octocoral..not actually wanting me to leave (or maybe it was). :D
 
chris,
Could Aspartic Acid be used to disolve more calcium hyroxide instead of vinegar?

Besides what Randy already said I would like to add that it is not wise to add aspartic acid to kalkwasser. Kalkwasser will always contain some calcium carbonate. Aspartic acid will get bound on the fresh calcium carbonate surface, making aspartic acid unavailable.
 
How about peptidoglycan then? Pretty common substance in the marine/reef world. I did notice in one of the oceanography texts it is mentioned that the majority of aspartic acid as part of the DOM fraction is in the form of D-asp rather than L-asp which suggests its source is from bacterial decomposition rather than an organism producing it and excreting it into the water column. Also of note was that another of the common foods we use here- Nori has a fair amount of aspartic acid (.01-.03g/g), so I guess if you have some Nori decomposing now and then you are probably releasing a little D-asp, correct?

Yes correct! BUT corals have only L-asp. If the coral (skeleton) is several hundred years old a small fraction L-asp has been recemized to D-asp.

Furthermore the peptidoglycan of bacterial cell walls contains D-asp. Also the asp content of Nori is far less. I think you are referring to the asp content in the water extractable cell material.

would still like a little more data such as what is the natural range versus what is in our tanks, is it actually depleted at a rate beyond what is naturally produced in a glass box?

Standing stock concentration around coral reefs is a typical 1 microM/L (total aminos) this is roughly 50-100 ppb.

That concentration does however not tell anyting about input and output.

In aquaria depeletion of aspartic acid can be caused by binding to fresh calcium carbonate surfaces. But also replacing e.g. phosphate on some calcium carbonate. Not to mention biological degradation.

Fortunately asp (L-asp) is removed very fast from the surrounding water by corals.

Does what you put into the tank make a difference ie. a tank with lots of macro algae, regular feedings of nori and phytoplankton make a difference?

Sure, if corals need aspartic acid and by (decaying) food they obtain asp precursors they will make it themself. This will however cost energy and perhaps time.

Also, just in case it was a language barrier thing from the other forum... when he said "you go" and "thatta way" it was meant as encouragement for some of the proper questions to ask in order to ID an octocoral..not actually wanting me to leave (or maybe it was).

Wishful thinking??:D
 
Originally posted by Habib


Also the asp content of Nori is far less. I think you are referring to the asp content in the water extractable cell material.

Yes, it was through HPLC.


Standing stock concentration around coral reefs is a typical 1 microM/L (total aminos) this is roughly 50-100 ppb.

That concentration does however not tell anything about input and output.

Hey now we are getting somewhere!

In aquaria depeletion of aspartic acid can be caused by binding to fresh calcium carbonate surfaces. But also replacing e.g. phosphate on some calcium carbonate. Not to mention biological degradation.

Fortunately asp (L-asp) is removed very fast from the surrounding water by corals.

Yes, but is it being depleted faster than it is being produced and at what rate? That is what I am after. I am sure you came about the suggested dosage on the bottle by some means and it was just not a guess (you are very thorough).

Wishful thinking??:D

:rollface: :fun4: :spin2: :hmm5:

Just want to say "thanks Habib" for answering so many questions and being so patient. I still find this a fascinating subject and am looking forward to trying it out. I think I am now out of questions.... :wave:
 
Saltshop,

Yes, but is it being depleted faster than it is being produced and at what rate?

If it would not be depleted (corals, bacterial breakdown,....) faster than being produced then it would accumulate.

Each and every aquarium is different. Especially in this respect.

I am sure you came about the suggested dosage on the bottle by some means and it was just not a guess

It was not a guess. I think that if you have a lots of corals, doubelling the dose would be fine. But that would be a maximum dosage. Especially if dosed weekly.

It is quite well possible that during this year the concentration of asp will be increased and will be advised to dose half the amount in some cases.

You should however not forget that there are also other components in the supplement.

I still find this a fascinating subject and am looking forward to trying it

Did you also order a new tank for just in case your corals triple in size within a hour or so?

Don't expect asp to be a miracle because it is not so. Compare it to increasing a lon time too low calcium concentration situation in a tank. In some cases the effect will be tremendous and in some cases nothing beneficial will be observed.

Just want to say "thanks Habib" for answering so many questions and being so patient

Thanks Saltshop (it is probably not your name?) you are welcome.
I like critical questions and I hope I have answered them satisfactory (perhaps except the last ones:D )

I will probably add some more information in the coming time about the organic matrix.

I think I am now out of questions....

Perhaps this will give me chance to recover from my disease (SIS).
 
The following has been out a few months ago and wanted to share with you. :D

First the not so scientific version and then the scientific version:

Houlbrèque monitored both the rates of organic matrix formation, and skeletal calcification in corals in the dark, when they couldn't benefit from the dinoflagellate's nutritional input. Monitoring the coral's uptake of aspartic acid into the matrix base Houlbrèque realised that the fed corals laid down far more organic matrix than the corals that were starving; feeding was having a direct effect on organic matrix synthesis. And when she monitored the fed coral's calcification rate with radiolabelled calcium, it was also higher than the starved coral's. Although feeding had a direct effect on both processes, Houlbrèque realised that `the increase in the rates of calcification in fed corals might be induced by stimulation of the organic matrix'.

The full version of the above can be found: http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/207/9/ii

The abstract of article which is being referred to can be found here:
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/abstract/207/9/1461

FWIW I'm going to buy the full article. :)
 
Forgive my failing organic chemistry memory but...

Aspartic acid is a chiral molecule isn't it? If the coral in question is obtaining asp from biological sources wouldn't the asp have (+) or (-) chirality (i.e. not racemic)? Does this matter? So, if I wanted to go out and purchase some asp for my tank do I look for (+), (-) or a racemic mixture?
 
Yes D and L.

In this thread I give some information about the being left or right handed and the possible natural sources. IIRC then I ruled bacteria almost out.

There are also other threads about it in this forum.

My connection here at home is extremely slow otherwise I would have given you the threads and links tom posts within this thread.
 
Doh... it was only a couple posts above (sorry) :(
So you would suggest L-asp, not D? Isn't that the one available in health food stores?
 
Greg Hiller said:
Oops, I didn't realize this was such an old/dead thread!
Click to expand...

Let me guess... you had an answer but was searching for the right question...right? :D

Greg, I'm just joking. :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=571054#post571054 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
I'd suggest starting low. The drawback might be that the aspartic acid has nitrogen in it, and it may end up partially as nitrate.

If it were me, I'd dose something like 1 g in a 100 gallon tank, and see what happens a week.
Click to expand...

Do you think that possibly this is a good weekly amount to try out or ??
 
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