Atlantic Pygmy Angel sick and/or blind?

[Jonny Bolt]

Hi all. I have a sick Pygmy Angel. Starting 2 or 3 weeks ago, I noticed it wasnt eating a whole lot that I put into the tank, and it also had slowed down on its grazing of the LR and the inside of the glass.

Shortly after that, I noticed it was not swimming out in the open as often, which it had previously. It was a very free fish and very, very active. Now it is spending most of its time in the back corner, hovering in the same spot right above the sand but under some LR. I had to move some of my rock to make sure it hadnt died last night.

A week or 2 after I noticed it wasnt as active, the times when I did see it out in the front, it would swim back and forth and bump its "chin" on things, including rock. Thats what it got weird lol. Its as if the fish is blind. To test this out, I waited till it was out in the front again, and then started waving at it through the glass, jumping up and down, etc. etc, but it didnt react. Usually if you did that it would atleast see the sudden movement and take off into the rock or something. Now it doesnt even see it. I also noticed it will swim very close to the sand alot if and when its comes in the open. It definitely swims like its blind, but its eyes do not look swollen or inflamed.

Other observations include it having faded colors. The blue in its sides its definitely faded out and whitish. Almost flushed out looking. But it doesnt look like ich or spots I dont think, just faded. It hasnt been out front for a few days now, so its to be getting worse. All of my other fish are perfectly fine.

Ammonia - 0, Trite - 0, Trate - 10, pH - 8.4.
Has anyone ever seen this type of behavior before?

P.S. I will post a pic if it ever decides to come out again lol

 

[leebca]

You don't mention what other fish you have, so I can't totally discount water quality or poisoning since this fish can be sensitive to some water conditions that other fish aren't.

You don't mention how long you had this fish, but the symptoms you name could lead one to think the fish has a nutritional deficiency (wrong diet).

A picture would be good. Additional info might help. Whatever you feel like providing:
How old is your tank? When did it originally cycle?
What kind of system do you have (tank volume, dimensions, bio-filtration method, the equipment you use, any carbon or other chemical filtration, kind of substrate, etc.).
List all specimens & sizes in the tank (fish, inverts, corals, clams, snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.).
If you have a refugium and/or sump, what is living in it?
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure?
Foods you use and feeding schedules.
How long have you had this fish? How did you acclimate it ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ what procedure?
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae;cyanobacteria growths; dinoflagallate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; colored patches on rock or substrate; etc.?
Water changes (how much and how often). Kind of artificial salt youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re using.
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks (or just prior to the fish going off its food).
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

 

[Jonny Bolt]

Thanks for the reply. Lets see, I do my best to list appropriate stuff.

The tank is a 38 gallon all-glass. I have (in order of introduction)

a tank-raised Maroon Clown (nowhere near full-size, less than 2")

Decorated Goby (probably full size now)

The Atlantic Pygmy in question (between 2 and 2.5" long)

a Valentini Puffer (about 3")

and a Fuzzy Dwarf Lion (only about 3.5" long)

I also have 6 Turbo snails, and a Hermit crab. The tank has been up since the beginning of last March, so I will be going on 1 year soon. I cycled 6 weeks before introducing any livestock.

I have about 40 pounds of Tonga Branch LR, as well as 10 pounds of another rock, I think it's Vanuatu LR. (just one big chunk of it)

I use a Penguin 200 for filtration. I use the normal filter pad thing that includes activated carbon. I also have a little mesh bag with some Seachem PhosGuard that I put in the Penguin 200 for a few days after water changes. And I have a sand bed that ranges from 3-5". It was made using 20 pounds of Fiji Pink arag-alive, and about 30 pounds of Araga-Max. No refugium or sump.

I use a 5.5 gallon quarantine for 3-4 weeks before introducing fish and inverts.

I acclimate my fish for between 1 and 1.5 hours, by taking small amounts of water from the bag, and adding the same amount or less from my tank. Very small amounts at a time, probably between 1/4 of a cup to half a cup.

I dont use many additives. I my fish Emerald Entree, Hikari Marine S, Formula Two pellets, freeze dried krill, frozen and live Brine Shrimp for a treat, brine shrimp flakes, and Frozen Silversides (Lion, Puffer, Goby). For other treats, I also put in a mussle, clam, or steamer for my Puffer, to help keep his teeth filed. I only do this though after thoroughly washing them. I cycle all the food around so they get a good weekly feeding.

I do a 15-to-20 gallon water change EVERY 18-to-21 days, religiously. I use Reef Crystals for salt. I used to 5 gallon water changes every 2 weeks, but after doing larger ones every 18-20 days, I noticed my levels were healthier and the tank looked much better.

I got the Pygmy angel at the end of last April. It was very healthy, and was so until 2-3 weeks ago.

I havent really added anything to the tank lately, except for 5 Turbo Snails. I think I mentioned above I got them from a new LFS store that I found and decided to check out. The snails came from a big tank with a "aqua-cultured" LR.

I have done the normal maintenance like cleaning the glass, and replacing the filter element in the Penguin 200.

As for noticing any new stuff growing in the tank, YES! Within the last week I noticed that I there is one place in the tank where the sand is getting discolored (dark). It happens to be right in the front-center, on the sand. So I can notice it easily. Last night I stirred around the sand and it went away ofcourse. Then I looked over a few hours later and it was back! Almost as much as it was before I stirred the sand around. It is definitely localized, and only appearing in this one spot. I had never seen that before since starting the tank.

Secondly, I noticed these little white specks on the front of the glass, and they seem to have green-polyp like hairs swating off them. These also seem to be localized in one area on the front of the glass, with a few strays. Here is a pic, its not the best as these things were hard get a photo....

I have since use my mag-float to remove them.

As far as algae goes, i've never really had a problem with it. I get some algae on the inside of the glass, but nothing out of control. The snails seems to keep it in control. And even when I didnt have snails, it was never all that bad. I do have a few small patches of what I believe is thick green hair algae that is growing off and artificial barnacle that I have in the tank. I take that out and clean it off and scrub it in tank water whenever I do my water changes.

I am due for a water change this week, Thursday actually. I use Start Right the majority of the time to condition water, as well as Prime and amQuel. I also use Seachem Buffer when doing water "top-offs" along with the Start Right.

Latest update is I moved some rock out of the way and found the Angel hovering in the same spot. I decided to give him a 4 minute freshwater bath. I did so, and after doing that the fish swam head up and kind of scurried around the tank for a minute. Then he slowly came to, and after about a 5 minute "rest" period where it hovered in the same spot, it came out front and swam around.... although it stayed very low to the sand. I also noticed that it seemed to be "pecking" some LR as though it was grazing again. I decided to drop some Formula 2 pellets down around it hoping it would peck at those too, but it didnt. Somehow I forgot to take a darn pic of it though when I had it out. I will get one tomorrow

 

[Jonny Bolt]

Just saw the fish out N about, so I snapped some pics. I kept the actinics off.

 

[leebca]

Thanks JB for your effort to give us the information.

The fish is most likely stressed. I can see a couple of places of possible stress, but it's not certain they are the cause or are contributing to the cause.

The tank is too crowded. This is the primary source for stress that I can see from your description. If the tank is 39 gallons, not filled to the top, with 50 pounds of rock, thick sand, no refugium or sump, just think how much water is actually left in there. You have 11+ inches of young fish in less than 30 gallons of water?

The above would lead me to want to test the water for oxygen content, trace elements, and ORP.

There is something not quite right with the water quality. We check the water parameters for which we have kits, but unfortunately we can't/don't test for all possible conditions. Your original post didn't indicate what phosphate level you have. With the sand thick in some areas, I'd be concerned about sulfides. There is a sulfide test you can do.

I'm concerned about the additives you put in to the make-up water to 'condition' it as you say. Why is this? What is your make up water? Have you checked your makeup water for contamination?

Stress can affect fish in a chronic or acute sort of way. That is, it can have a long-term effect or have an immediate affect. A low stress over time takes its toll.

I congratulate you on your use of the QT and a QT procedure. I also want to point out how much attention you seem to be giving your aquarium. Many aquarists like the hobby at the start, providing much attention, and then begin to not pay attention.

 

[Jonny Bolt]

Thanks so much for your time and responses.

Yes, I really care about my fish, they are pets to me. It was just odd because my tank had been absolutely disease free since its inception. I monitored it very closely, all the time. It has really treated me well since last March. Only until recently have I had a problem. It just came out of nowhere. I have a sneaking suspicion this Angel is stressed out because of diet. I hadnt added anything to the tank, or done anything different in my routine since I started the tank, so I know it wasnt anything like that. But I think I can remember noticing a decline in noticing the fish eating food I was giving the fish. I mean, it always seemed to swim and graze like a normal fish, but I'm pretty sure it stopped eating some of the stuff I was giving.

I am going to run another series of tests, then do a big water change.

 

[Jonny Bolt]

For the hell of it, here's is a few other clearer pics...

BTW, I may have estimated my amount of LR wrong. It is Tonga Branch, so it doesnt "fill out" the tank as much as say Fiji. I know I started with 25 pounds. Then got another 10-12 pounds from my friend. I then got a chunk of that vanuata I think, and that must way about 5 pounds. So I may be at the 50 pound mark.

 

[leebca]

I thought from one of the previous photos that I saw some hemorrhaging. These photos clearly show hemorrhaging. Is the bloody spot along the top of the fish, raise above the fish scale level, just under the scales, or deeper in the tissue? Does the fish have some reddish blotches or streaks on it anywhere? I'm concerned that the fish might have Septicemia.

Is the water crystal clear, a bit cloudy, or slightly unclear? Is there much detritus around your tank? I would check the ammonia and nitrite levels again with a fresh kit that will measure low levels of both.

Under the above concerns, I'd move the fish into a hospital tank and begin an antibiotic treatment (Maracyn Two for saltwater at a first dose of 40mg Minocycline/10 gallons of water then follow directions after that first dose, combined with Maracyn One for saltwater).

:rollface:

 

[Jonny Bolt]

Hmm, it looks like the blotch is flush with the scales. Not sure today though, cuz after I put them to bed last night, it moved to a spot under the rock, so I can barely see it. I know its there tough, and alive, I can see it moving. I did not notice any streaks on it though last night.

The water is crystal clear right now. Test results:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrates: 40

My trates are high. Usually never above 20. But I as I mentioned i am due for a water change.

As far as detritus, I really have none that I can speak of. The snails, hermit and my Goby take pretty good care of the sand bed. It's a clean white, overall, right now. And the spots I mentioned that were up front in the middle arent there right now. I think those formed cuz I left the lights on too long for a few days in a row. My assorted mushrooms are also looking fine. I know when the water gets crappy, they wont open up much during the day when the lights are on. But they are all looking great.

Sounds like a plan. I will move it over to the lil tank when i do my water change. Should be easier to reach him with some water out of the tank lol. The spot he is in now is much harder to reach.

 

[Jonny Bolt]

Ooops, almost forgot to ask....I use an old Aqua-Clear filter on my hospital tank. It has the seperate media as you may know. Should I remove the charcoal one when dosing the Maracyn stuff? I usually have the foam block, charcoal, and ammonia remover.

 

[leebca]

You need to follow the directions of Mardel (the makers of the Maracyn products). I believe they recommend that no carbon filtration be done during treatment. There is an exception, and that is if the carbon has been in use for more than 5 days. I'm unsure about the ammonia or other chemical filters. Drop Mardel an e-mail and ask, if you want to use anything else in the filter.

 

[Jonny Bolt]

OK thanks. Will do.

I will be sure to post updates on the fish, in hopes in might help someone else out in the future. I will also post some more pics of it if things go well and it gets better. Hopefully I can help to return it to its beautiful self lol...

 

[Jonny Bolt]

Hi. I currently have the fish in my hospital tank. It has been dosed with the proper amount of Maracyn 2. And the lights are out.

Upon putting the fish in there, it swam around, head up, for awhile. Prior to me taking him out of my display tank, I looked in and noticed it was swimming in a circle chasing its tail lol. Anyway the fish calmed down and seems to be "resting". His fins are moving, and it seems ok, but I dont want to be too overconfident, since this is the first time I have ever had a sick marine fish.

I guess my question is, is this "resting" behavior normal and expected when in a hospital tank? The fish is right side up, not lying on its side or belly up or anything, just leaning against one of the fake corals I put in there for hiding spots.

Oh, forget it, I just looked in right now and it is lying on its side. I think it crapped tha bed.

 

[Jonny Bolt]

Holy crap, I nudged him and it woke up! lol. Still alive. Eyes moving normally too. This is creepy.

Is this normal???

 

[leebca]

It's hard to tell 'normal' in a fish. Tangs are one of the worst of all for 'mental' problems, real or imagined. Your angel fish might just be playing opossum as a normal reaction to the new surroundings. On the other hand it could be just conserving energy.

Add beta glucan to its foods, along with vitamin supplements. These will help its immune system work with the antibiotic. (Beta glucan can be obtained from most health food stores -- it is given to people for the same reason).

 

[Jonny Bolt]

Oh thanks for the tip. Will do! I actually have to go up to tha health food store myself ta git some more Coral Calcium N magnesium

The fish seems to have acclimated, and is back to doing his "ring-around-the-rosie" impression lol. Atleast its active. Damn fish has been through hell and is still fightin'.

At what point into the 5 day maracyn 2 plan should start feeding the fish normally?

 

[leebca]

I'm unsure about your feeding question.

You should be feeding your fish during the treatment process. You should be using foods soaked in vitamins (once a day or every other day) for the life of the fish. You should be adding beta glucan to the fish food a few days after treatment is complete and fish appears normal.

 

[Jonny Bolt]

Unfortunately the fish crapped its bed, sometime this morning. It looked as though it was getting better, swimming more normally. Oh well, I'll probably get another Angel, maybe a Flame.

I really appreciate all your time and help. The info and advice you provided me will not go unused. I will use this great information in the future if I ever have another sick fish.

Thanks again

 

[teamfocus]

Hey JB!

Hey JB!

Fancy seeing you here. Sorry about your loss. I just got back into reef-keeping myself. Drop me a line sometime!

 

[jgreen1025]

I've noticed the exact same thing with 2 of the 4 blue/green chromis in my tank recently. It started maybe 3 weeks ago and I didn't think much of it at first because my ocellaris clowns looked like they were going to start nesting, so I assumed they were being a bit aggressive toward their more passive tankmates (plus work has kept me so busy lately that I haven't had much time to stare at the tank). But then I realized that when I fed them I'd only see one or two of the chromis joining in. Upon closer inspection the others would usually just sit in a corner, practically resting on the sand or rocks. If they came out at all they acted as if blind and would run into the glass. They also exhibited the faded color - but not as dramatic as the pics of the angel above. I've had these 4 chromis in my tank for a year now, and the clowns were added separately, one last Easter and the other last fall. Incidentally, I noticed the same thing happen to one of the chromis early last summer, and I removed him to a quarantine tank where I was able to medicate him with Madel Coppersafe. He seemed to recover but when he was returned to the tank he never schooled with the other chromis' again.

My tank is a 50g skimmerless reef tank with 2-3" sandbed, established about a year and a half ago. I do ~5 gallon water change every week or two, and feed a variety of things: Formula 1 and Prime Reef flake foods, dried cyclopeze, and frozen mysis. The only additives are the occasional dose of Mrs. Wages limewater and DT's Phyto. Amonia, nitrates, and phosphates are always undetectable, or nearly so. pH is a bit low, around 8.0 - 8.1, and temperature 80-82f. Everything else seems very healthy. Most of the corals are listed in the details below. In addition I have a variety of snails: trochus, cerith, cowries, collumbellids, and 3 different kinds of nassarius (and suddenly I've noticed a whole bunch of small white limpets on the rocks), plus some chaeto algae in the tank.

The only thing I can think of, and if I'm not mistaken it was a bit of a problem last time this happened, is that I've had a small red cyano outbreak recently. Coincedence, maybe...?

John G.