Bare bottom tank
- Thread starter josephv
- Start date
plyle02
Active member
robthorn,
good to see you back!
I really don't want to get too caught up in the subject, as I have been an advocate of BB for quite awhile, and currently have a 1-2" sandbed in my 40gallon, 6" in my rdsb fuge, and that goes completely what I have personally done for a few years... I run the Neo-Zeo method, which conventionally matches up with running bb... I have always enjoyed the micro-inhabitants that seem more easily kept with a sandbed, so I am now running my sps tank with a shallow sandbed. The RDSB offers more biological complexity, running 1 mangrove, zoos, gorgonian, sps frags, red macro, and a clam... I also run neo-zeo zeolite, dose the bacter, and add bio-fuel... The extension of the RDSB fuge has allowed me to dose less, and allow more natural reduction of nutrients, while benefitting from running a ULNS... I expect I will eventually see macro algaes wither away, the RDSB still offers much in the way of filter feeding. I know this is a non-conventional way of running a ULNS. In short, too many ways to skin a cat, to each his own...
good to see you back!
I really don't want to get too caught up in the subject, as I have been an advocate of BB for quite awhile, and currently have a 1-2" sandbed in my 40gallon, 6" in my rdsb fuge, and that goes completely what I have personally done for a few years... I run the Neo-Zeo method, which conventionally matches up with running bb... I have always enjoyed the micro-inhabitants that seem more easily kept with a sandbed, so I am now running my sps tank with a shallow sandbed. The RDSB offers more biological complexity, running 1 mangrove, zoos, gorgonian, sps frags, red macro, and a clam... I also run neo-zeo zeolite, dose the bacter, and add bio-fuel... The extension of the RDSB fuge has allowed me to dose less, and allow more natural reduction of nutrients, while benefitting from running a ULNS... I expect I will eventually see macro algaes wither away, the RDSB still offers much in the way of filter feeding. I know this is a non-conventional way of running a ULNS. In short, too many ways to skin a cat, to each his own...
plyle02
Active member
Since November of 08, but went offline for a month back in Feb, only to return, due to the abundance of supplies... I ran bb until about 1 month ago, and had the space to add a RDSB, so I also added a light sandbed to my display tank. The benefits are starting to show their teeth so to speak, the colors were sort of pastel, but are now stunning. Not totally from running the system, my light is strong, running 20k radium... I find much benefit, but you have to pay attention, the corals need food/nutrients, so supplementation is a must, even if you feel nuissance algae exists... As far as the rest of the line-up, I backed off of all the supplements only to add very slowly to see the effects. I use the entire line-up, so PM me if you have any questions.
Thanks
Jury for brightwell? Math doesn't lie no jury needed. The price is right and most products are more than twice as potent. On the a and b I used 20-25ml per day of b ionic and with brightwell I use 7.5 ml per day to maintain exactly the same numbers. The other good thing is you can go to the website and it tells you exactly whats in the bottle.
ok a little sideways curve back to bare bottom anyone?
ok a little sideways curve back to bare bottom anyone?
This is true, but keep in mind that pH has to drop quite low (mid 7s, per randy's article in reefkeeping) to allow the phosphate to dissolve back into the water column.
One thing that really aggravates me about BB advocates is the constant mantra of 'DSBs will eventually fill up'. I've yet to hear solid scientific evidence to back this claim in a PROPERLY run DSB.
If the critters can get to the glass bottom and keep it stirred I would agree it should not fill up. I don't run DSB and never have liked them myself. I like under 3 inches more like 1 1/2. If I had a DSb it would have to be remote. Ron Shimek promoted a DSB that could not be penetrated by invertebrates. Maybe this is what has been refered too. He had screened off layers and such. OF course I have seen some really nasty tanks (including my own from time to time) that I believe the sand beds could be considered full or saturated.
For the record my sand bed can't fill up when I stir my sand weekly by hand all the way to the glass. The rest of my filtration then removes the suspended particles. Sure beats a siphon when BB.
For the record my sand bed can't fill up when I stir my sand weekly by hand all the way to the glass. The rest of my filtration then removes the suspended particles. Sure beats a siphon when BB.
ichthyman
Active member
Evidence is all around, usually bombard upon us by the local news media. If sandbeds had an unlimited ability to sequester nutrients, mainly N and P, than environments would never become eutrophic. Eutrophication can be caused by both natural or man-made processes and typically effects bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers. If Mother Nature can’t “properly†maintain a sandbed at all times what hope does a reef hobbyist?
Now please don’t lump me into one group or another. I proven my ability to be able to maintain any type of system I chose.
I agree that sand beds don't really have an answer for phosphates, other than adsorption to aragonite, in which case the bed would eventually "fill" up. There was a good study on this in Florida Bay. I can't remember the school that did the research, but if necessary I'll look it up.
I disagree, however, that a properly set up and maintained sand bed will fill up with organics, nitrates, etc. The chemistry behind it is very similar to live rock, with the exception of the anaerobic layer. Detritus is processed by various benthic organisms, eventually being processed by bacteria in the nitrate cycle. From there, anaerobic bacteria process it further. As long as a diversity of life is maintained in the sand bed, organics will be processed out and removed as CO2, N2...
So again, with the exception of Phosphates, what exactly would cause a sand bed to become full?
ichthyman
Active member
“So again, with the exception of Phosphates, what exactly would cause a sand bed to become full?â€Â
I didn't use the words fill or full. My stance is different.
“As long as a diversity of life is maintained in the sand bed, organics will be processed out and removed as CO2, N2...â€Â
Only a small percentage is exported via gas. The rest is dumped or sinked right back into the system.
"Detritus is processed by various benthic organisms"
Did I miss the release of the wonderous StarTrek like Tricorder device that will let us know when all the various pathways for nutrient cycling are or not present. How else could one proactively tell that the sandbed’s flora and fauna are not in the “correct†species ratios.
Again, if the popular belief of how or how well sandbeds work was true then natural ecosystems would never become eutrophic. Since nature has at its disposal sandbeds, flora and fauna yet lacks the ability to process/sequester all available nutrients, energy, why should we expect something different to occur in our tanks. One more time, I am neither for or against their use. I'm just realistic with my expectations.
I didn't use the words fill or full. My stance is different.
“As long as a diversity of life is maintained in the sand bed, organics will be processed out and removed as CO2, N2...â€Â
Only a small percentage is exported via gas. The rest is dumped or sinked right back into the system.
"Detritus is processed by various benthic organisms"
Did I miss the release of the wonderous StarTrek like Tricorder device that will let us know when all the various pathways for nutrient cycling are or not present. How else could one proactively tell that the sandbed’s flora and fauna are not in the “correct†species ratios.
Again, if the popular belief of how or how well sandbeds work was true then natural ecosystems would never become eutrophic. Since nature has at its disposal sandbeds, flora and fauna yet lacks the ability to process/sequester all available nutrients, energy, why should we expect something different to occur in our tanks. One more time, I am neither for or against their use. I'm just realistic with my expectations.
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Realistic expectations is a key to anything in the reef world.
I do now, and other than one tank with a plenum, have always had a DSB. I am totally aware of the PO4 issues and detritus issues associated with the DSB. I run copious amounts of gfo at all times. When we did the DIY reactor build with Chris and Carol, I built a 6" x 24" media reactor for gfo. I use a Reeflo Snapper pump to run my gfo, carbon and calcium reactors. As for detritus in the sandbed, I have 2 sandsifting stars and armies of nassarius vibex snails to keep it cleaned up and the top inch moved around. A DSB won't last forever, but even when my husbandry wasn't as anal as it is now, I kept a DSB tank for 7 years. I took it down when I moved here.
I do now, and other than one tank with a plenum, have always had a DSB. I am totally aware of the PO4 issues and detritus issues associated with the DSB. I run copious amounts of gfo at all times. When we did the DIY reactor build with Chris and Carol, I built a 6" x 24" media reactor for gfo. I use a Reeflo Snapper pump to run my gfo, carbon and calcium reactors. As for detritus in the sandbed, I have 2 sandsifting stars and armies of nassarius vibex snails to keep it cleaned up and the top inch moved around. A DSB won't last forever, but even when my husbandry wasn't as anal as it is now, I kept a DSB tank for 7 years. I took it down when I moved here.
Only a small percentage is exported via gas. The rest is dumped or sinked right back into the system.
My understanding is (and I can be corrected) that a large portion of metabolism produces Carbon Dioxide as a result. Here's one equation from RHFs article on phosphates:
FROM http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php
I do agree that each organism will only partially process something, leaving additional matter to be processed by other organisms. Eventually this matter will be reduced to inorganic compounds to be processed by bacteria (or other micro-organisms), one (albeit small) example shown in the equation above.
My point is that I've heard very few people argue that DSBs don't work at all. Many many people can attest to undetectable nitrates as a result of a DSB. The point of disagreement seems to come into play as sand beds age, and whether they eventually become nutrient sinks. By keeping the organisms in the sand replenished (by adding detrivore kits, fresh 'live' sand, etc.), the original function of the sand bed can be maintained.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is a clear answer on what it is that causes a sand bed to stop functioning. We already know what allows a sand bed to function properly, but at what point does this process break down? At any point during a DSBs life, the nutrient content inside that bed will be high. It is the organisms within it that allow the functioning of the bed.
Finally, I want to say that Eutrophication isn't necessarily a result of substrate. Just because sand occurs in these environments doesn't mean that it's the source of the nutrients. Lagoon areas with their lower flow as well as being wedged between the shore and the reef tend to sink more nutrients. I would propose that even without sand, these areas would still have higher nutrients (even though I have nothing to back this up at this point).
Let me just say that my intent in posting isn't to discredit or argue against a particular method. Like John said, many different methods have been used to accomplish the same goal. My goal is just to have a (hopefully educational) discussion.
My understanding is (and I can be corrected) that a large portion of metabolism produces Carbon Dioxide as a result. Here's one equation from RHFs article on phosphates:
FROM http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php
I do agree that each organism will only partially process something, leaving additional matter to be processed by other organisms. Eventually this matter will be reduced to inorganic compounds to be processed by bacteria (or other micro-organisms), one (albeit small) example shown in the equation above.
My point is that I've heard very few people argue that DSBs don't work at all. Many many people can attest to undetectable nitrates as a result of a DSB. The point of disagreement seems to come into play as sand beds age, and whether they eventually become nutrient sinks. By keeping the organisms in the sand replenished (by adding detrivore kits, fresh 'live' sand, etc.), the original function of the sand bed can be maintained.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is a clear answer on what it is that causes a sand bed to stop functioning. We already know what allows a sand bed to function properly, but at what point does this process break down? At any point during a DSBs life, the nutrient content inside that bed will be high. It is the organisms within it that allow the functioning of the bed.
Finally, I want to say that Eutrophication isn't necessarily a result of substrate. Just because sand occurs in these environments doesn't mean that it's the source of the nutrients. Lagoon areas with their lower flow as well as being wedged between the shore and the reef tend to sink more nutrients. I would propose that even without sand, these areas would still have higher nutrients (even though I have nothing to back this up at this point).
Let me just say that my intent in posting isn't to discredit or argue against a particular method. Like John said, many different methods have been used to accomplish the same goal. My goal is just to have a (hopefully educational) discussion.
sivert55
New member
Mike,
7 years with a dsb is awesome!
Though, the way you maintain, your current tank, I'm not surprised you achieved that duration.
Did you do anything to maintain biodiversity in the dsb? like swap cups of sand with other reefers? Or seed with something new every once in a while?
I too have sand sifting stars and conchs in my remote DSB. It first, i was stirring the top layer of the sand bed. but i see my conchs and stars move around so much in there every day that i don't bother doing that as much anymore.
7 years with a dsb is awesome!
Though, the way you maintain, your current tank, I'm not surprised you achieved that duration.
Did you do anything to maintain biodiversity in the dsb? like swap cups of sand with other reefers? Or seed with something new every once in a while?
I too have sand sifting stars and conchs in my remote DSB. It first, i was stirring the top layer of the sand bed. but i see my conchs and stars move around so much in there every day that i don't bother doing that as much anymore.
gwaco
New member
the problem that us hobbyist have is we try and compare our very very small sandbed footprint with the ocean . it can't be done ! regardless of whether a lagoonal area ( remember most areas are still pristene , so don't compare were the reefs are to what happens on our bay ) the thing we can't do is flush our systems out like the tides do ! if you could figure out(cost effectively) a way to do this twice a day in our tanks you'd be a millionare. also remember that each and ever animal you add to your sandbed to turn your bed over also adds to the biolaod of the system , after all they do have to poo also , and if you can't get it in suspension where do you think it will end up ?
i'm not saying it can't be done ,but i have found my tank to be much more stable and easier for "me" to control the tank being b.b. , not the other way around .
i'm not saying it can't be done ,but i have found my tank to be much more stable and easier for "me" to control the tank being b.b. , not the other way around .
gwaco
New member
quote- ( By keeping the organisms in the sand replenished (by adding detrivore kits, fresh 'live' sand, etc.), the original function of the sand bed can be maintained. )
my question to this is if you have to keep replenishing these critters , doesn't that mean the ones you are replacing have died ? where do these dead and rotting animals go ?
my question to this is if you have to keep replenishing these critters , doesn't that mean the ones you are replacing have died ? where do these dead and rotting animals go ?
