Beckett vs. Needlewheel skimmers

[JC VT]

You'd need a heck of a recirc to accomplish the same.

I think this monster would qualify :eek2: :eek2:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=732601

 

[Roland Jacques]

sherm,
you dont see the flow meter? 2500+ lph=90 scfh

 

[sherm71tank]

No, I really can't tell what it says. I would be down with one of them is they perform as we hope and they don't sound like freight trains and won't require constant cleaning and repair. Time will tell. For now, I'll stick with the beckett.

 

[jnarowe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8376735#post8376735 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Roland Jacques
The man who can most easily test this for us is right here.

jnarowe has a airpump driven skimmer. he can run it at any through flow he wants.

Not really. I just run it at max. I made little attempt to design this skimmer with flow in mind other than trying to emulate snailman's basic skimmer principles. I just wanted to get extremely good dwell time and had to work within the constraints of the space available.

The skimmer is 16" x 14" x 55"h and holds about 50g. The neck is 24" tall and I have 5" clearance from the ceiling.

The overflow is only about 5" higher than the skimmer body top and inlet. This gives me slow water throughput and sick dwell time. Sherman has seen it and can attest to that. I tend to run slightly wet but that often is a factor of salinity which I run on the high side at around 1.026 - 1.027.

I get approx. 4 gals. of very dark skimmate per week.

jnarowe,
1. what flow rate do you run?

Air= 100ltr/minute or flat out. I have been told that if I decrease (bleed) some air my bubbles would be smaller. What I have done is ordered extra large aquatic-eco fine pore stones. I will increase my stone surface area by 2.5x and report on the results. I believe it will decrease bubble size and increase density.

2. what happens to your skimmate production if you run 9times

I am not sure what you mean.

3. your tank vollume through your skimmer?

650g/hr or roughly 55%/hr

4. whats your ideal setting?

On.

 

[Roland Jacques]

jnarowe
cool, i was only talking about water flow with the questions.

 

[jnarowe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8376986#post8376986 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Roland Jacques
jnarowe
cool, i was only talking about water flow with the questions.

I just open the valve and let it rip. Dale (tinygiants) was over one time and did a down and dirty test of flow and he came up with about 650g/hr.

I run a Hammerhead for return flow and figure with head loss I am getting about 4200g/hr through the overflow. I have two 2" return lines to the sump and one 1.5" line to the skimmer. With the drag of the BH screen, I figure it to be just about what Dale does. I had originally thought it was higher until I pulled off the screen to clean it and it was like flushing a toilet! :lol:

I am interested in Sherman's beckett designs as well as the Sequence NW and will try both. The only caveat is the question as to whether adding the electrical draw of the Sequence is worth the result.

 

[Roland Jacques]

Originally posted by NoSchwag
Think about it, which method is more effective at getting particles BEFORE they break down.. ...Reticulating the same water over and over again OR skimming a lot of different water.

My money is on getting as much particle filled water thru the skimmer as possible, as quick as possible ala becket..

The reason why recirc skimmers SEEM to work better, is because it's alowing crap to break down in the tank while it skims the same water over and over again. Think of it like fighting an uphill battle. Ask people with slow flow thru sump how good their skimmers work. There is a whole 123123908 page thread of people saying how much better their skimmers work.

The name of the game, IMO, is cleaning as much water as possible, as quick as possible.
________________________________________


Good valid point, and it a good theory and could be true

EXCEPT for the FACT that when you run both recirc and single pass (of any skimmer) AT the same time on the same tank. the recirc always pulls out more and nastier smellier stuff.
You have to be able to explain this to support your argument. The high flow crowd keeps dancing around it.

JC VT

OK you see ,The topic I was Talking about with Noschwag was water flow in skimmers. JUST WATER FLOW. You might want to go back and read it again. Then again i might not have made that clear.

The idea that becketts are better because they flow more water was the argument that Noschwag made 9 times tank volume was the number he used. many other make that same argument. because of that high flow the skimmer could pick up stuff before it decade.....

So, with that said. If that is the logic here. Then two IDENTICAL skimmers one recirc (slower flow through 500GPH) and one non recirc (higher flow 1000GPH). By that logic the 1 flowing 1000 GPH should perform better Right?

My point is, the 500 gph skimmer always pulls out more skimmate and stinkyer skimmate. This is what I said gets danced around.

Then you talked about wet and dry foam … and this

“I'd like for you to show me exactly where I was comparing two identical skimmers. Bold and quotations would be nice.”

The Question, is mine. So you see, I am asking you to ask yourself this question. If more flow is good than how come less flow works better. Like Hahn said “the proof is in the pudding.”

 

[JC VT]

I think many times the forest is lost in the trees when people are talking about how "efficient" a skimmer is. I would rather have my system be effective rather than having all these little "stubborn" molecules scrubbed out of the skimmer before the water exits.

So, with that said. If that is the logic here. Then two IDENTICAL skimmers one recirc (slower flow through 500GPH) and one non recirc (higher flow 1000GPH). By that logic the 1 flowing 1000 GPH should perform better Right?

Yes, but this was never in contention. Al's acrylic cleaning analogy works here.

My point is, the 500 gph skimmer always pulls out more skimmate and stinkyer skimmate. This is what I said gets danced around.

Between two identical skimmers, sure. But we're not talking about two identical skimmers; this was never the basis for debate. We're talking about Al's choice to choose between any skimmer, of any type. We're talking about choosing TYPES of skimmers rather than a recirc Euroreef vs a non-recirc Euroreef.

I'm talking about methodology, and what skimmer best fits Al's interests of clean water for SPS.

 

[sherm71tank]

Al, you still with us? This is for YOU after all!

 

[Roland Jacques]

JC VT

If you don't understand the effects of different flows though the skimmer, water dwell time, you cant possible no how to compare the different skimmers.

You say this was never the basis for debate. I say it needs to be, and if you go back a few pages with Hahnmiester it was indeed a big part actually thourhout the thread

You say you agree that the recirc with the lower flow is better than the higher flow non recirc. Then you have to ask, if slow flow though is better than fast then is even slower better? how slow is the best flow for your tank. AND does that rule out the high flow beckett (non recirc) as the best choice.

We're talking about choosing TYPES of skimmers rather than a recirc Euroreef vs a non-recirc Euroreef”. Actually I was thinking of MRC recirc beckett vs a non recirc becket skimmer.

You say that this was never in contention. If flow water rate is not contention your not reading the same thread I am. Like I said I was talking to Noschwag

see you said "I advocate; high turnover", but you agree that the slower recirc's are better??? do you see what im getting at?

 

[JC VT]

We're not talking about two identical skimmers, the only difference being recirc and not. You might be debating this, but I am not. We're talking about any type of skimmer, notably Beckett vs Needlewheel.

You say you agree that the recirc with the lower flow is better than the higher flow non recirc. Then you have to ask, if slow flow though is better than fast then is even slower better? how slow is the best flow for your tank. AND does that rule out the high flow beckett (non recirc) as the best choice.

Best for what. Bragging rights for lowest skimmer organic effluent? Or best for a reef tank. Unless you're turning your tank over many times through, you're not doing much. You're scrubbing water really clean... only to return them to a dirty tank. It's like having a ridiculously great washing machine... that only washes two shirts at a time, and then you throw them back into a dirty hamper. I don't know about you, but my laundry loads are larger than two shirts. Make your system effective.

 

[Roland Jacques]

iI is so simple, the one that pulls out more stuff wins. you agreed the slower rcirc pulls out more stuff. 5 pounds of waste vs 3 pounds of waste day in and day out. Its just that simple.

you think it scrubing to get the last 10% out i say its scrubing to get the next 40% out. this is where we differ

 

[JC VT]

iI is so simple, the one that pulls out more stuff wins. you agreed the slower rcirc pulls out more stuff. 5 pounds of waste vs 3 pounds of waste day in and day out. Its just that simple.

Now you're just getting silly.

We're not talking about two identical skimmers, the only difference being recirc and not. You might be debating this, but I am not. We're talking about any type of skimmer, notably Beckett vs Needlewheel.

 

[Roland Jacques]

you think it scrubing to get the last 10% out i say its scrubing to get the next 40% out.

 

[JC VT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8377652#post8377652 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Roland Jacques
you think it scrubing to get the last 10% out i say its scrubing to get the next 40% out.

We're not talking about two identical skimmers, the only difference being recirc and not. You might be debating this, but I am not. We're talking about any type of skimmer, notably Beckett vs Needlewheel.

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8375338#post8375338 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NoSchwag
The name of the game, IMO, is cleaning as much water as possible, as quick as possible.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes that all that water you pass through that single-pass skimmer is being cleaned at least 50% in that small amount of time. In reality its only about what... 10% maybe? if that... So all you are doing is passing more water out of your skimmer before its cleaned.

Its like taking a UV sterilizer that is 18watts, rated for 100gph, and handles a 200g aquarium and thinking that by doubling the throughput you are increasing the handling to 400g... it just doesnt work that way.

And since when does more/darker proteins in the skimmer mean that there is more stuff in the tank that is breaking down? The longer that the waste spends inside of the tank, the less able you are to skim it out in the first place, as its converted to other materials that skimmers cant remove. Darker skimmate doesnt mean its from older material.

 

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8377626#post8377626 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JC VT
Now you're just getting silly.

Is it the word "pound" you think is silly or the skimmer that pulls out the most dry weight that is silly?

If you cant understand pounds it,s a unit of measurement, you may like oz's, or grams... Your just not getting my point are you?It's ok we can just agree that we have a failure to communicate.

 

[NoSchwag]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8377688#post8377688 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes that all that water you pass through that single-pass skimmer is being cleaned at least 50% in that small amount of time. In reality its only about what... 10% maybe? if that... So all you are doing is passing more water out of your skimmer before its cleaned.

I'm still talking about particle skimming, not protien skimming. My skimmer is set up to strip the water of solids not protiens. I have about a 3 second dwell time in my skimmer.

 

[NoSchwag]

Here is a video of my skimmer removing solids.

Here are recent pics.

 

[NoSchwag]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8377688#post8377688 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister

Darker skimmate doesnt mean its from older material.

How do you get that dark skimmate then? DOC's are Dissolved Organic Content. Let's remove as much as we can before it breaks down.