build has finally started

[Capt_Cully]

I gotta side with Bean on this one. Primarily because its the more conservative advice. Floods and pump failures are no fun.

Blurry/Pascal stopped by tonight and it is AMAZING having second party perspective. He quickly illuminated a few pitfalls I'd been setting myself up for.

 

[jacksonpt]

Floods and pump failures are no fun.

Is there something about bean's post that makes you think I could be asking for problems, either with the pump or with leaks/floods?

Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything... I didn't read anything like that from either post so I'm not sure where your comment came from.

 

[Capt_Cully]

Its reads, to me, that he is saying, as you approach 1.5" outgoing plumbing you "quickly surpass diminishing returns". I was thinking sticking to 1.25" plumbing and going with 2, 3/4" returns would decrease stress on the pump. My later comments were more "doomsday " conclusions about pump failure and floods that were a touch exaggerated for a dramatic flair.

I'm not sure I'm reading them right. They seem to be opposing responses.

 

[jacksonpt]

I think the first response was, more or less, definitely upsize and go as big as you can fit. Bean's response was more "moderate", saying upsizing the plumbing does help, but there is a limit to where you'll see benefit. On my pump, it seems like 1.5" is the limit... going bigger doesn't net much (if any) gain.

 

[Capt_Cully]

Yeah, we're on the same page. I am a bit conservative when it comes to stresses, over redundancy, and fail safes. My concern for you, was stressing the pump and having it fail. I don't know a ton about them, but I don't think they are fan cooled. They are super quiet, but can heat up a bit. My fear is that it will be working overtime if it's pushed to the limits of it's capabilities it might heat up or fail. I don't know if my concerns are legit or not. Just food for thought.

Again, Pascal was here last evening and he looked over my system and pointed out a few things I'd overlooked. I've been putting this tank together for like 10 months. He picked up on some pitfalls in like 10 seconds.

Not trying to put my thoughts into your planning. Just trying to spitball with you and hopefully prove or disprove concerns, to ensure your system is kick-a$$. You're definitely off to a great start!

 

[jacksonpt]

Ah, ok... now I understand the pump failure concern/comment. And I'm with ya on over planning and over building to avoid disaster as much as possible.

That's part of the reason why I posted the build... to get comments and suggestions from other people, so keep the thoughts coming! :thumbsup:

 

[jacksonpt]

***... why is it that no matter what/how many fittings I buy at Lowes, I NEVER have the right one??? grrrr...

Anyways, so after a few delays, I have some progress. At this point everything is dry-fitted, nothing glued. I figured I'd get some feedback here before I glue things up.

(2) 1.5" drains into the drain/skimmer section of the sump
(1) 1.5" bulkhead fitted to the pump
(1) 1" bulkhead will get a barbed fitting, used for water changes
1" spa flex from pump outlet, through a 1" union, then upsized to 1.5". 1.5" T fitting used to feed media reactor(s), 1.5" spa flex up the back of the tank to a 1.5" T fitting. After the T, 1" spa flex to 3/4" loc-line returns (with individual ball valves).

Once everything is glued up I gotta figure out the best way to anchor the return plumbing to the stand to give it some support, but everything else seems pretty good.

Comments? Suggestions? Criticism? Praise?

The 1" union seems a little restrictive, I may replace it with a 1.5" to keep flow up. Thoughts?

 

[Haffs09]

Nice build! I have some suggestions you may want to consider:

You want a bubble trap after you return/skimmer section of your sump. Your current set up will leave you prone to micro bubbles. I think three baffles place high-low-high will be your best bet. Place them about an inch apart and leave an inch clearance under the high baffles should work well for you. The baffles in front of your pump intake will likely cause issues with air getting sucked into your pump inlet. I don’t know what your intentions are for the middle section of your sump, but I would split your sump 1/3:2/3. The 2/3 section can be for your skimmer, DT return and other equipment. The 1/3 section will be for your pump intake.

I think you’ll end up throttling your pump outlet quite a bit. I can’t find a flow curve for your pump, but it delivers 1275gph at 0’. You don’t have a lot of vertical head (maybe 6’?) so I think that pump will deliver everything and then some that you want for your tank. I think you’ll be fine with running 1” line from the outlet to your locline fittings. All those couplers, reducers add to your frictional losses and in the end, you’re probably okay with all 1”. Plus, it’s easier to find fittings!

In lieu of an isolation valve at the inlet of your pump, make sure you have a plug that you can screw into your intake bulkhead. That way, if you pull your pump for maintenance, you won’t have drain most of your sump.

Good luck!

 

[jacksonpt]

After several delays (2 extended power outages, never see me to have all the right fittings regardless of how many trips I make to lowest, etc) I finally have all the plumbing glued up. I'm going to let everything dry for a couple of days then start filling for a leak test this weekend.

Is that what I think it is? could it be? A light at the end of the tunnel???

 

[pascal32]

watch the pump angle to the glass - make sure you have a solid base that doesn't flex - pump movement = stress on the glass.

are you still barbed onto the spaflex from the pump? I've never tried that. if you keep this please consider putting a metal clamp on there!

I'm a little worried about the small return section where the pump intake is - this is the area which will lower in level as the water evaporates leaving you very little tolerance in the event the ATO fails (or runs out of water) - if you don't have an ATO you will need to top off manually couple times a day - the consequence is that the pump will run dry and possibly get damaged. Even with an ATO you would need to top off pretty frequently which is tied to your RO/DI will wear on the membrane.

The comment on diminishing returns - if you go from 3/4" to 1" the return on flow is huge - 1 to 1 1/4" well worth it - 1/1/4" to 1 1/2" usually not that impressive unless you have a really big pump. just my opinion.

when putting in unions and ball valves try to place them on the "up-sized" pipe - most valves and unions from HD/Lowes restrict a size down internally - not as big of a deal on the larger pipe.

sorry to contribute late!

 

[jacksonpt]

watch the pump angle to the glass - make sure you have a solid base that doesn't flex - pump movement = stress on the glass.

Stress on the glass is a big concern for me, but I hadn't thought about it at that location. Good call.

are you still barbed onto the spaflex from the pump? I've never tried that. if you keep this please consider putting a metal clamp on there!

That's the way it's currently setup, and I've run the pump with 1" spa flex in the past (with hose clamps) with good success. The only problem is that it's SUCH a tight fit that it makes installing/removing the pump difficult, which means more stress on the glass. I'm going to see what lowes has for a thinner walled more flexible vinyl hose that will be easier to work with.

I'm a little worried about the small return section where the pump intake is - this is the area which will lower in level as the water evaporates leaving you very little tolerance in the event the ATO fails (or runs out of water) - if you don't have an ATO you will need to top off manually couple times a day - the consequence is that the pump will run dry and possibly get damaged. Even with an ATO you would need to top off pretty frequently which is tied to your RO/DI will wear on the membrane.

Yep, a lot of people have said that. The normal water level when the system is running will be much higher than that left-most baffle, so the water level will actually change throughout most of the sump.

I should have drawn something up to show the water level at during normal operation.

The comment on diminishing returns - if you go from 3/4" to 1" the return on flow is huge - 1 to 1 1/4" well worth it - 1/1/4" to 1 1/2" usually not that impressive unless you have a really big pump. just my opinion.

The outlet on the pump is 1". I upsized it to 1.5 so that the various restrictions (splits, bends, union, etc) will hopefully have less of an impact. The eheim 1262 I'm currently using is REALLY hampered by restrictions.

when putting in unions and ball valves try to place them on the "up-sized" pipe - most valves and unions from HD/Lowes restrict a size down internally - not as big of a deal on the larger pipe.

Exactly what I did... I bought a bigger union and moved it up to the 1.5" pipe.

sorry to contribute late!

No problem at all... the tank isn't full, so there's still time to tweak.

 

[pascal32]

You can put a union in above the pump so all you have to do is unscrew the the union to get the pump out. Problem is that you also need one between the glass and the pump- preferably with a valve. You could just put a union without a valve in between the pump and the glass, and then put a tub into the bulkhead insidethe tank going up so you can pull the pump without loosing water.

 

[jacksonpt]

More progress...

Somehow I forgot to glue in the unions on the drain lines, so I've gotta cut the drains and glue in the unions today.

The display is filled and the last 20 or so gallons of water are being filtered as I type, so I should be able to finish filling and turn on the pump tonight (depending on when I get around to glueing in the unions).

I may also have to cut down the inside part of the bulkhead the pump is connected to. It's a little closer to the baffle than I would like... not sure if it will affect the flow at all or not, but we'll see.

Plumbing the T4 turned out to be way harder than it should have been. 1" hose fits, but it's REALLY tight. So tight that installing/removing the pump would have put FAR too much strain on the glass. On the return size (outlet), I ended up using my dremel do basically sand down the inside of the spaflex to make the ID slightly larger. I then upsized the plumbing from there. I did basically the same thing on the inlet side, but I used braided vinyl hose instead. I cut a short (~3/4") length of the 1" hose and glued it inside a length of 1 3/8" hose. I then glued that to a PVC bushing which was glued into the bulkhead. I "sanded" out the inside of the 1" hose until it fit snugly on the pump, then hose clamped it down. Hopefully that fits/seals well.

Pics:

 

[jacksonpt]

Ran home at lunch today and glued in the unions. I also filled to sump to see how the baffles worked and immediately got a pretty good stream of water leaking from the pump bulkhead. I drained the water (water change drain worked GREAT!) and will have to look at that tonight.

 

[pascal32]

Check to make sure the rubber washer is on the flange side (which for you is on the outside of the tank).

typically the bulkhead is the otherway around with the flange on the inside. Some people say not to do that, then again the most common overflow boxes are that way.

is this going to the pump? I've heard of gluing vinyl tubing - not sure if that will hold or not.

 

[pascal32]

duplicate

 

[jacksonpt]

Yes... that is on the pump inlet... though i flipped the bulkhead after i took that pic. I have the threads/nut/gasket on the inside of the tank and the flange on the outside.

So the gasket goes on the flange side regardless? I assumed it went on the wet side (inside)...

 

[jacksonpt]

Got everything filled and fired up the pump tonight. First thing i noticed was just how smooth and quiet the T4 is, which I love! Second thing i noticed was that the pump has enough pressure to shoot water roughly 10 feet across the room.

Once I remembered to tighten things down and such it all ran pretty well. I ran it for about 10 mimutes with the pump wide open, then just briefly with the various vavles closed to different degrees.

Ive got slight leaks at 3 of the 4 bulkheads, but everything else looks pretty good, though Ill have to wait for everything to dry to double check a few of the fittings.

I can't seem to get the bulkheads tight enough. Or maybe the gasket isnt sealing... any tips?

 

[pascal32]

Correct, gasket does to flange side regardless of positioning. Overflow boxes have one on inside and outside.

You shouldn't have to tighten much. If the gaskets are in the right place and it is leaking make sure everything is square

 

[jacksonpt]

Good to know, thanks. I'll fix that tonight and hopefully that'll take care of things.