Calling out all Chemists!!!!

[Dr. Reef]

In post 1 you said you "cannot keep any corals happy more than few weeks."

In post 12 you said "the fish and inverts are perfectly fine and thriving. only inverts i kill are anemones and clams"

?????

Assuming the problem is with corals, the only thing that jumps out at me is the Phosban reactor. FWIW, BRS recommends 2.65 cups of GFO per 85 gallons. If you're using a single Phosban reactor for a tank your size, you may not be using enough GFO. Have you tested for phosphates? Also are you using GAC? If not, I'd recommend another reactor for GAC. FWIW, Boomer recommends a cup of GAC per 100 gals.

sorry let me clarify, fish and CUC are doing great. only corals (of all kinds soft/lps/sps) die over time some fast some slow. anemone and clams also die after week or so.
i am running 2 x BRS carbon reactors with BRS high end Carbon (forgot the name rox something) also using 3x BRS phos reactors with normal gfo )not high capacity).
Each reactor is filled with recommended amount of media according to BRS reef calculator.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Did you ever find your problem? What was it? Please don't tell me the mystery isn't solved yet!

 

[potterjon]

+1 I am wanting to know what happened here also. I hope you figured it out and it was an easy fix.

 

[Dr. Reef]

mystery continues!!!!! bad sulfur media in sulfur denitrator was somewhat to blame. it was clumped so i replaced it. did 100% water change and corals started to look good. after 1 month things went back to same corals not being happy.
i took the sulfur denitrator out completely and replaced with Reef Octopus Bio Pellet reactor filled with BRS biopellets. this was 3 days ago.
also i used Two 3in x 3in pieces of styrofoam insulation to keep my sea swirls in place and those styrofoam were completely under water for all this time (1yr) and they are suppose to the way i am using them but i happen to notice they had a silver aluminum type stuff on one side so it could have been leeching some metals in the water not sure.
i took the silver film off the foam and now its just styro foam in the water.
my next guess would be stray voltage.

So guys what do u think now, narrowed down to:

1. bad sulfur (not things got worse after month of replacing media again)
2. silver film attached to styro foam two pices submerged 3"x3" (could it really cuase problem?)
3. Stray voltage( getting the rid volt just in case)
4. LED lights (not sure if they can be a problem AI VEGAS at 30%)
5. High Alk (10dkh) in ULNS (nitrates 0 salifert, phos under 0.05 hanna low range phos)
i have dropped the alk to 8.5 but plan on stabling it at 7.5-8 range.

Please please guys anything any idea any suggestion will help. i got 50k in this setup and it will be a shame to convert it to fish only tank.

 

[Dr. Reef]

i bought 12 frags from online vendor Jan 3rd. they arrived healthy in Jan 4th and after coral dip and temp acclimation they went on my frag rack in the lower half of the tank in moderate flow moderate light (vegas set at 30%)
Bird nest started bleaching from base up next day. completely dead in 3-4 days.
green acro also went bleaching 3rd day from base up and now only top 1/4th part is alive rest 3/4 bottom bleached as of today.
superman, rainbow and pokestar monti did well for first week then starting to fade. as of today they look pale.
Blue acro looks brown no bleaching
Green Pocillopora looks healthy and ok. full extentions and happy as far i can tell.
Tri Color Valida looks slightly brown with a little bit of color but no bleaching.
a few more small acros i got are bleached from base up or pale.

 

[nanotank]

I would buy a poly filter and run that. See if it changes color or what it may pull out.. They r cheap and worth a shot...

 

[Dr. Reef]

I would buy a poly filter and run that. See if it changes color or what it may pull out.. They r cheap and worth a shot...

done so. it turns tan and brown over time only indicating organic material in water. no other color changes on poly.
trust me guys i have taken any and every approach that i can think of in my 15 yrs of hobby and what others have suggested. water testing was the last thing i did to find out if there was anything specific that pops out in testing.

 

[nanotank]

I do not believe its the vegas at all at 30%.. What salt you using?

 

[Dr. Reef]

red sea coral pro.

 

[MrClam]

Not an experienced reefer, but what I can suggest is to continue your scientific process of elimination search. From what I read so far you seem to say that anything light dependent dies over varying lengths of time. If it was biological or heavy metal contamination it would likely affect inverts or fish as well as corals so I would suggest trying a different light fixture (even just one) at first to see if the corals under that lighting fare better. I doubt electrical because the fish would be symptomatic as well.

If the lighting isnt the issue then you are left with contamination that would preferentially inhibit the microalgea function within the corals. Do you see any algea growth in the tank? If not I would stop most filtration (denitrator, phosban reactor) and let the nitrates and phosphates rise a bit and try keeping some corals alive. It is possible that your flow and filtration is too efficient at pulling nutrients and thus starving the microalgea (unlikely but needs to be ruled out).

After that the only possibility is chemical contamination that is inhibiting algea growth from either metals or chemicals used in the tank. The PVC glue is fine as it is a volatile solvent and evaporates quickly. I would suspect antifungal compounds because they have been shown to affect algea growth to an extent.

 

[Ron Reefman]

I know you are running your Vegas at 30% and that shouldn't be the problem.

Two points: A fellow club member was having similar issues with his 'inexpensive' leds and he was sure it was too much light. I took my PAR meter over and he was at 300 an inch or 2 into the water and 20 at the sand 28" down. So have you any way to get PAR readings? I think leds are making PAR meters a much more useful tool. We all knew t5 were OK and most MH are too. But it's easy for dimmable leds to be too dim or too bright and our eye really has a hard time seeing the difference. I only wish I could offer more help.

 

[CHSUB]

thought.....i use leds also and i have found some sps do terrible and some fine...i buy corals from a local grower who uses MH/ t5 and it takes me weeks for her sps's to adjust to my leds, when wild sps seem to adjust much quicker.

 

[tapio]

mystery continues!!!!! bad sulfur media in sulfur denitrator was somewhat to blame. it was clumped so i replaced it. did 100% water change and corals started to look good. after 1 month things went back to same corals not being happy.
i took the sulfur denitrator out completely and replaced with Reef Octopus Bio Pellet reactor filled with BRS biopellets. this was 3 days ago.
also i used Two 3in x 3in pieces of styrofoam insulation to keep my sea swirls in place and those styrofoam were completely under water for all this time (1yr) and they are suppose to the way i am using them but i happen to notice they had a silver aluminum type stuff on one side so it could have been leeching some metals in the water not sure.
i took the silver film off the foam and now its just styro foam in the water.
my next guess would be stray voltage.

So guys what do u think now, narrowed down to:

1. bad sulfur (not things got worse after month of replacing media again)
2. silver film attached to styro foam two pices submerged 3"x3" (could it really cuase problem?)
3. Stray voltage( getting the rid volt just in case)
4. LED lights (not sure if they can be a problem AI VEGAS at 30%)
5. High Alk (10dkh) in ULNS (nitrates 0 salifert, phos under 0.05 hanna low range phos)
i have dropped the alk to 8.5 but plan on stabling it at 7.5-8 range.

Please please guys anything any idea any suggestion will help. i got 50k in this setup and it will be a shame to convert it to fish only tank.

I am sorry that you continue to have problems. There is nothing in your methodology that is wrong, but IMHO you keep changing things around too much and running things too complex. I can understand that you want to change things around because something clearly is wrong, but when there are serious problems like you have, I always like to simplify things.
A small healthy captive established coral, SPS or LPS should stay alive just fine in a small basic aquarium (eg. 20gal), mixed with a good salt mix, with mature live rock a power head, heater and some standard lights (fluorescents, or MH). Those conditions are not the best long term of course but most corals should at least stay alive for a month or so. I would be tempted to try something like this to see if you can have any better luck with corals. At least it would rule out your water source, salt mix and lights. Live rock from elsewhere than your tank would be required too.

1. You removed the sulfur reactor, good.
2. I would remove all reactors. No carbon, biopellets, nothing until this is solved.
3. You use RS Pro salt, I have never used it, but all "Pro" salts usually have elevated Ca and alkalinity. But then you want to drop the alkalinity to 7.5-8. I don't understand why. It is a bit low IME.

What happens to your Ca, Mg and pH when you lower the alkalinity?

I run alkalinity at 430 ppm or about at least 10dKH. I have only used standard Tropic Marine or Instant Ocean salts, so I can't comment on anything else. My calcium is about 400-420 ppm.
4. I have also never used LED lights, but since all other creatures are doing alright except the photosynthetic ones, maybe it is time to put on some MH or T5 and see what happens.
5. I would not expect small pieces of styrofoam to have this kind of impact, but I would certainly remove it in case...
6. So I would question all reactor media, changing of alkalinity, the lights. However you have used carbon extensively so contaminating metals may not be the best guess. I certainly would try changing the light and also trying a small aquarium as I described for some corals.

I hope some of these guesses might help.

 

[tapio]

bnumair,

One more thing. What do you feed the tank? Do you use any additives? I don't recall what calcium reactor media you use.

 

[Dr. Reef]

i feed pe mysis mixed with brine shrimp and blood worms (frozen food) 2 times a day and 1 sheet of nori every day.
regarding changing this around yes thats true as nothing else has worked.
alk so low because i was told if i am running ulns like mine i need to keep parameters close to natural sea water.
cal media is what came with reef octopus cal reactor.
sulfur is gone replace by bio pellets.
if i was to take everything off like (reactors) phos and nitrates will shoot up but i can do water changes to control them. i will try this approach.
if i take gfo carbon and biopellets off line then i can continue using red sea pro as alk will not be a problem.
RSCP salt has 460cal 12alk 1400mag.

After all this stuff going on for over 1.5 yrs now i am also convinced that leds might be an issue. i need to go back to MH t5 fixtures to see what happens.

 

[tapio]

i feed pe mysis mixed with brine shrimp and blood worms (frozen food) 2 times a day and 1 sheet of nori every day.
regarding changing this around yes thats true as nothing else has worked.
alk so low because i was told if i am running ulns like mine i need to keep parameters close to natural sea water.
cal media is what came with reef octopus cal reactor.
sulfur is gone replace by bio pellets.
if i was to take everything off like (reactors) phos and nitrates will shoot up but i can do water changes to control them. i will try this approach.
if i take gfo carbon and biopellets off line then i can continue using red sea pro as alk will not be a problem.
RSCP salt has 460cal 12alk 1400mag.

After all this stuff going on for over 1.5 yrs now i am also convinced that leds might be an issue. i need to go back to MH t5 fixtures to see what happens.

What's the source of nori? I assume the other foods are reputable aquarium foods.
ulns, meaning ultralow nutrient system, right. That's what I just Googled. Not sure where this terminology started but I doubt any hobbyist aquarium is such at least compared to the ocean. You can safely keep your alkalinity and calcium at the levels I posted that I use. I have been running these levels for years. with high volume ETSS skimmers, carbon water changes etc. I am not sure what qualifies for unls but in such setups I have always had minimal algae but always some that herbivores consume. Algae must be able to live in the tank otherwise symbiotic strains would not be able to in corals/clams. In all natural reefs that I have seen there has always been some algae growth, so I don't think that is bad.

Also, IME, low alkalinity even at levels that you describe can be detrimental to captive reefs. Even worse is fluctuating alkalinity levels. The higher alkalinity stabilizes pH especially when using CO2 in calcium reactors. Captive water chemistry will never be the same as in natural tropical reefs and will always have higher nutrients.

The Red Sea salt levels are OK with me but unnecessarily high in Ca.

Your P and Nitrates will shoot up if you remove all media? I have run systems for years without such reactors, only live rock and good to moderate protein skimming without hobby test kit measurable N or P. Maybe your biological filter bacteria just needs to adjust to the higher nutrient input and will with time adjust and eventually consume what the reactors are doing now.

Please don't make any drastic changes based on this discussion as it may do more damage. With your long experience in the hobby I am sure you can filter what is useful to your situation.

 

[E Rosewater]

I've seen people suggest too much light from the LEDs, but it seems that the only things that are dying are things that are photosynthetic, could the issue be the lights are too dim?

 

[slapshot]

Did you say you filled the reactor right away? If you did that is your problem. It should take you two months at least to get to the max amount

 

[Sokretys]

I haven't any mention of macroalgae. Maybe try some chaeto in your sump. See if it acts the same as the corals. I agree with the previous post that its clearly something with your water that is effecting photosynthetic organisms. That being said i dont think its the lights. Its one thing for your original batch of corals from your 120 to die under the new leds. But all of these corals since too? I dont buy it. I dont think its your lights at all. If you are running bio pellets. I would get rid of the phosban and the denitrator. No need for them plus its something to rule out.

That was interesting about the styrofoam. I wonder if maybe there is an adhesive still on the foam after removing the silver coating? Try new foam too.

Are you using any additives? Any product that is older than few years?

 

[keithhays]

I would humbly suggest that your water is just too low in nutrients. I happen to be watching Mike Paletta's second video on American Reef where he was saying that having no nutrients in the water would eventually cause bleaching of the ends, etc, etc. He actually gave a phosphate reading of .02 below which this happens, but I don't know if he was talk about ppm or ppb. I have seen this same information in other places, but I don't specifically remember all the places.