Can we talk about links and reds

trueblackpercula

New member
I am ready to purchase a few new acros and Millie's that are either red or pink. Before I purchase anything I keep reading that the lose there colors. If you have pinks or reds acros or Millie's can you post picture of them and how your maintaining there colors?
Are they any harder then others? Less light more light etc. I did purchase a maricultured pink Millie but it passed On To acro haven and I did everything to try and save it. By the way I am running LED radion fixture if this helps.

Well thanks and looking forward to any assistance.
 
pics ?






some info
Baird et al. (2000) state that the DsRed fluorescence emission (from Discosoma) is insensitive to pH over a range of 4.5 - 12, and has a high quantum yield (0.7) at or near a pH of ~8.8. However, pH shifts within the coral tissue could conceivably cause a change in perceived coloration since absorption (excitation) maxima are caused by pH modulations - the wavelength absorption maxima falls from 558nm to 526nm as pH becomes lower.
'Metals ?
Any seasoned hobbyist knows that copper is toxic to marine invertebrates and avoids its medicinal use for fishes in a reef aquarium. However, even trace amounts of copper (Cu2+ & Cu+ ions in the parts per billion range) can bind with the wild-type DsRed protein as well as some of the engineered mutants and 'quench' (inhibit or stop) fluorescence (Rahimi et al. 2008). Fortunately, the effect is reversible as an addition of a chelator can reverse the effect and restore fluorescence. This quenching effect becomes more pronounced with increasing pH.

Other researchers also found evidence of metal-induced fluorescence quenching by cobalt and nickel (though not to the extent of copper - Eli and Chakrabartty, 2006). Zinc has been noted to reduce fluorescence in some of the genetically-engineered green fluorescent proteins (but we don't know which GFPs) but not in DsRed. See Figure 1 (note that this information is applicable to only the DsRed pigment and not any of its mutants).

more metals ?
Interestingly, some heavy metals have been found to marginally increase fluorescence of the protein found in Discosoma. Those with the most effect were (in descending order): Manganese, iron and chromium (Eli and Chakrabartty, 2006). See Figure 1.

Warning: These researchers were working with minute concentrations (mM) of metal concentrations. Resist the urge to dump a bucket of chemicals into your aquarium!

agh ... more metals ?
Eli and Chakrabartty, 2006 studied a number of metals and their effects on DsRed fluorescence. Those metal ions demonstrating no effects of were sodium (Na+), potassium (K+), calcium (Ca2+), and magnesium (Mg2+). The latter is of particular interest, since there are internet reports from hobbyists I respect claiming that low magnesium levels can cause loss of color in some Montipora specimens. See Figure 1.

from : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/4/aafeature1

KZ's B-balance helps with Reds ... can u guess whats in it ? :)

Conclusion :

In general, the fluorescence of DsRed pigments is not difficult to maintain in captivity. We have established that light (and blue light in particular) is important in the process of color promotion, although to varying degrees. Green light can promote coloration and in some cases, red light alone can make a coral weakly express pigmentation.

In some cases, temperature is critical (such as seen in the rose or bubble-tip anemone- E. quadricolor), where temperatures above 27C (~81F) inhibit coloration. On the other hand, the Keima pigment found in a Montipora species is stable at 37 C (98.6 F).

We have also learned metals can help promote or inhibit coloration. Metal binding to the protein definitely affects coral coloration, but it is unclear if those metals promoting fluorescence are required cofactors or simply a product of the binding.


HTH :)
 
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I also have a bit of trouble maintaining red coloration in millis. I have a frag of a rose milli (ORA I believe) that I acquired when it had rich red coloration. Over time, the red has faded a bit to perhaps a very light pink, and a bit more green pigment has developed. I'd love to hear an answer to this question too...
 
I have 3 milleporas which are as follows:

1. Red/Rose - Receives 250+ APR
2. Pink with green base and yellow tips - Receives 300+ PAR
3. Red with blue tips - Receives 250+ PAR

With 1, it is easy to keep the colour. I have T5 supplemented with LED's.

With 2, I have the most intense pink I have ever seen in person in a tank. I got it as a brown out. The new growth is an intense pink, with the tips being yellow highlighter colour. The base is starting to go green. Looks VERY nice.

With 3, this was a maricultured definate. Was red with light blue tips when I first got it. But is now mostly a brownish red with strong blue tips. Doesn't look very nice because it mostly looks brown. However, my tank was neglected for a good 4 months, and only past month I've been taking good care of it.

I use a combo of ATI Purple+, Coral+, Actinic and the Royal Blue LED's.

I dont have a DSLR as my Nikon D70 is not working, and my iphone 4 takes crappy photos and doesnt show the colours well. I will make a new tank thread in a few months and you can see the colours of my corals.

All parameters need to be stable. You need NO3 less than 5ppm, PO4 less then 0.05ppm and have strong lighting. With a mature tank, ie over 1 years PLUS, you should not have trouble keeping colours.
 
I must add that I dose the following additives:

1. KZ Pohls Xtra 1-2mls every few days
2. KZ Coral Vitaliser - 1-2 drops a few times a week
3. KZ AAHC - 1-2 drops weekly
4. Fauna Marin Colour Elements - All 3 - 5 mls weekly.

The above have certainly helped me bring my corals from having very pale in the past. Whether they help with colouration, I cannot say for certain, but I have become accustomed to knowing when to use such additives for the health of my SPS.
 
very interesting artical this was most helpful,
"Metals That Increased DsRed Fluorescence

Interestingly, some heavy metals have been found to marginally increase fluorescence of the protein found in Discosoma. Those with the most effect were (in descending order): Manganese, iron and chromium (Eli and Chakrabartty, 2006). See Figure 1.

Warning: These researchers were working with minute concentrations (mM) of metal concentrations. Resist the urge to dump a bucket of chemicals into your aquarium!
Metals with No Effects on DsRed Fluorescence

Metals and their effects on DsRed fluorescence have recently become a subject of interest to researchers - not that they care about the pretty colors, instead they are most interested in quantifying 'quenching' of fluorescence by metals in order to study ailments such as Alzheimer's and others. Eli and Chakrabartty, 2006 studied a number of metals and their effects on DsRed fluorescence. Those metal ions demonstrating no effects of were sodium (Na+), potassium (K+), calcium (Ca2+), and magnesium (Mg2+). The latter is of particular interest, since there are internet reports from hobbyists I respect claiming that low magnesium levels can cause loss of color in some Montipora specimens."
 
Never had a problem keeping rose milli red/pink in established colonies, I have noticed frags and pieces that wobble Brown out or turn green pretty quick, but always color back up when mounted in place.
 
Never had a problem keeping rose milli red/pink in established colonies, I have noticed frags and pieces that wobble Brown out or turn green pretty quick, but always color back up when mounted in place.

Thanks for sharing and I have seen pictures of your amazing tank. Do you add any additives to your system?
 
Thanks for the kind words, no additives pretty old school technology tank. Kalk, occasional2 part adjustment and mag and potassium when needed
 
potassium, only use if its low. no good comes from elevated levels over 400,

the new Salifert test kit is great and spot on.
 
I have more in the tank, but these are the only ones that I have pictures of already with some red in them. These are actually more red in person - I am terrible with the camera.

System - strong, high quality light, twice monthly (or just monthly if I get lazy) water changes, feed the fish and let my calcium reactor run. No GFO, coral food, bio pellets, vinegar, etc. On salifert, the N and P tests are clear from the top - the N has just the slightest bit of blue from the side (less than the 2 color, so maybe .1).

I have been using Tropic Marin and Salinity salt recently, which I anecdotally like better than some salts, but I am not sure why - I know that I like the low Alk in the TM, but otherwise, I am not so sure about the rest. This thread intrigues me since perhaps it has more/different metals in it than others.


 
Iodine does help with blues [in case its lacking]

lugos is Potassium Iodine, it increases Iodine though, and should not be used to increase K+.

be careful with it, and only dose when your blues are fading, Iodine can be poisonous at higher concentration. if you try to raise K+ with lugos, corals will die before K+ increases.

there are many K+ products out there, or you can use simple KCL, or even K2CO3 [requires alot of calculations, as it increases KH as well, it was carried out in a Reef chemistry thread]
 
Wait, now lugol's helps with blue?!? :p I thought it was reds and pinks? I have yet to see a single shred of anything other than very poor anecdotal evidence to suggest any of the elements claimed to help with certain colors actually do.















No silly supplements, just good husbandry! Also, a lot of the red and pink A. millepora brown out of lose color necause so many of them are hacked up maricultured or wild colonies.
 
This is just my opinion and hardly scientific, but typically what I have anecdotally and on-the-outside observed is that people generally get to a new level of awareness and skill to where they add supplements to the tank along with a whole other slew of things, not the least of which is typically patience, knowledge and better overall general husbandry. Sometimes, these supplements are given credit for results that were likely very much otherwise gained from other sources. Rarely have I seen that when people quit that their supplements that they are missed.

The sometimes exception to this, however, is when the supplement increases the N and P load on the back end in low-food situations - meaning that a product like snow or whatever did not actually feed the coral with the snow, but after the bacteria at the snow and made N and P. In this situation, just feeding the fish more could/might/would have done the same thing. Basically, the food helped to solve the problem, but it did not matter if the food came from.
 
Wait, now lugol's helps with blue?!? :p I thought it was reds and pinks? I have yet to see a single shred of anything other than very poor anecdotal evidence to suggest any of the elements claimed to help with certain colors actually do.

No silly supplements, just good husbandry! Also, a lot of the red and pink A. millepora brown out of lose color necause so many of them are hacked up maricultured or wild colonies.

you are missing the point.

I am NOT talking about elevated levels. I am speaking of keeping levels. good husbandry, meaning enough water changes, will replenish those :) dosing more will cause an iodine poisoning :)

scientists writting a paper and studying different proteins is anecodal evidence to you ? or did u not read the linked article ?

Ps. corals look great !

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Aquarium Corals: Making Corals Colorful: New Information on Acropora species
 
Well I will say that scientific or not I have seen better coloration using lugos solution then without. Reds and pinks were always challenging for me and after reading many articles and what others of post here it's something that I may try and start. Adding supplements for some works and for others it doesn't. I do t have a heavy fish load I dose vodka and use GFO with a deep sand bed. So the addition of lugos amino acids and vodka have helped my Sps color up like never before. They still do t look like the ones pictured above and I change 5 gallons of every week and still I do t get the results of many. I have to be lacking something and when I find it I will let even one know. It's frustrating to try and achieve good results with so much freaking conflicting information.

Some say go barebottom some say deep sand bed some say carbon dose some say RDSB some say go with Zeo some say feed your Sps this that and the other thing some say LEDs some say halides some say t5 vho hqi the list is endless. Some say raise your PO4 raise your No3 some say feed your fish more what the heck does one believe ???? Oh and for the ones that use natural sea water and some of the chines tanks say you need 16 different supplements that should be dosed daily. And let's not forget refugiums mirical mud more fish Larger skimmer no skimmer add vinager no add suger no add honey My head is spinning from all the directions we can get pulled Into. I am sure I left out 100 more variables. Wow did I just say all this? Lol

The bottom line there has to be a common denominator and yes it good husbandry I have and I still don't get Sps to glow like others.

I just want to learn and keep a beautiful reef like the very few around here that do so. Sorry for venting it's just frustrating.

Thanks for the information and please don't let my frustration get In the way of all these great debates.

By the way thouse pinks and reds are freakish g stunning thanks for sharing. Amazing tank

MICHAEL
 
Have you found a single source, or two, that use almost the same system and tried to copy it? The issue with some advice is that it has no background for basis. GFO would severely harm my corals since my P is already undetectable, whereas it is probably necessary if you are BB or have a super high fish load. Using GFO could be both good and bad advice/idea at the same time.

I guess what I am saying is to study the whole system from lights, husbandry and salt mix, not just the pieces in isolation.

If it matters, I am 250W HQI 14K Phoenix, Wavebox, 3" Sandbed, Calcium Reactor, no GFO/GAC/Carbon, 2 skimmers, Tropic Marin salt (or IO or Salinity - NO kent or coralife, ever), 44G brute water changes at least monthly (more if I am not lazy), Medium fish load feeding 65% pellets and 25% mysis and 10% other frozen, no coral food, and no dosing that the calcium reactor does not do. I find this very effective and very easy to maintain - I just change water and vacuum about 20-25% of my sand every year.

For most higher end SPS tank, you are going to find some stunning similarities with a critical masses of reefers.
 
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