saltwater sam
New member
Looking great, Michael!
Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank
- Thread starter Michael Hoaster
- Start date
Thanks, Sam. Overall, the tank hasn't changed much. There's more algae, less macro algae, and the grasses are slowly growing. So, it's coming along.
Thanks, sam.basye! That's high praise!
To get the sun-like look, I used a single 5000K 400 watt metal halide, in a spider light reflector, mounted at 30ish degree angle, over the left end of the tank. It was very difficult to resist the urge to evenly light the whole tank, but I knew I wanted a lower light area for sponges and other low light organisms. Now I'm used to it.
I think it was JLynn who pointed out that the fake mangrove root suggests a tree that shades that part of the tank. I'm really looking forward to getting some sponges on those roots!
I'm also pretty psyched to get more seagrass. In hindsight, I wish I had started with more. I thought they'd spread quicker, so I wanted to give them room.
To say that this has been a learning experience is a huge understatement! It will be interesting to evaluate the process and figure out what I would have done differently. Even in these early months of the tank, I can think of several things…
To get the sun-like look, I used a single 5000K 400 watt metal halide, in a spider light reflector, mounted at 30ish degree angle, over the left end of the tank. It was very difficult to resist the urge to evenly light the whole tank, but I knew I wanted a lower light area for sponges and other low light organisms. Now I'm used to it.
I think it was JLynn who pointed out that the fake mangrove root suggests a tree that shades that part of the tank. I'm really looking forward to getting some sponges on those roots!
I'm also pretty psyched to get more seagrass. In hindsight, I wish I had started with more. I thought they'd spread quicker, so I wanted to give them room.
To say that this has been a learning experience is a huge understatement! It will be interesting to evaluate the process and figure out what I would have done differently. Even in these early months of the tank, I can think of several things…
I've been thinking about my cyanobacteria issue. With all the water changes and algae removal, plus a much stingier fish-feeding regime, I don't think it should be as bad as it is. It's gotten better, but not good enough. So I'm wondering if there's a hidden cause I hadn't thought of, or maybe a method I've used, or both. Something must be out of whack. I remember when I added glutamic acid pills (ammonia) to the deep sand bed, I had a short bloom, then algae and cyano dissipated and all was well. This, to me, indicates a healthy, balanced system, that can respond well to nutrient spikes. Months later, when my tank should be even better, it appears to be worse.
So, I put my big 'ol brain to work. Here's what I've got so far: I haven't seen my conch for weeks. It tends to bury in the substrate for days at a time, then reemerges and goes back to work. Maybe it's dead. That would certainly provide lots of 'nutrients' for the cyano. Combine that with daily carbon dosing and a too long photoperiod. Sounds like a recipe for cyano to me!
With that in mind, I've decided to suspend carbon (vinegar) dosing. I'm also going to try to find my conch, to see if she's dead. I've shortened the photoperiod as well as upped the water flow from my main pump. I'll continue with aggressive algae removal and water changes. I have some live mud on the way, which should bolster and diversify my detrivore population. I'm looking into getting a larger reservoir for RO/DI water, so I can up the volume of my water changes. Right now, they're at about 10% of tank volume. I think having the option to change as much as 20% would be helpful.
Now I'll ask you guys out there on RC (aka, my Super Science Friends), for any ideas you might have.
I do like to look on the bright side of things, so I'll say that this issue has encouraged me to 'up my game' as an aquarist, and it has, so thank you, cyanobacteria!
So, I put my big 'ol brain to work. Here's what I've got so far: I haven't seen my conch for weeks. It tends to bury in the substrate for days at a time, then reemerges and goes back to work. Maybe it's dead. That would certainly provide lots of 'nutrients' for the cyano. Combine that with daily carbon dosing and a too long photoperiod. Sounds like a recipe for cyano to me!
With that in mind, I've decided to suspend carbon (vinegar) dosing. I'm also going to try to find my conch, to see if she's dead. I've shortened the photoperiod as well as upped the water flow from my main pump. I'll continue with aggressive algae removal and water changes. I have some live mud on the way, which should bolster and diversify my detrivore population. I'm looking into getting a larger reservoir for RO/DI water, so I can up the volume of my water changes. Right now, they're at about 10% of tank volume. I think having the option to change as much as 20% would be helpful.
Now I'll ask you guys out there on RC (aka, my Super Science Friends), for any ideas you might have.
I do like to look on the bright side of things, so I'll say that this issue has encouraged me to 'up my game' as an aquarist, and it has, so thank you, cyanobacteria!
karimwassef
Active member
1. Check TDS on your RO
2. Measure NO3 and PO4. Mud and Carbon will solve Nitrates, not phosphates.
3. Measure NH4 and NO2. Are you fully cycled? Dead snails will raise ammonia.
4. Are you skimming?
5. Do you have an ATS or other export mechanism?
6. Are you over feeding?
7. How is your water flow/circulation?
8. How long is your photoperiod?
9. Are you dosing anything?
10. What's your average temperature, pH and salinity?
11. What's your WC rhythm and volume?
12. Do you have filtration media (bio balls), mechanical (socks, sponges) or absorption media (GAC, phosphate absorption, etc..)
13. Do you have a UV sterilizer?
14. Do you have a phosphate reactor (GFO, Phosguard)?
15. What salt do you use?
Hate to sound like a doctor diagnosing by phone, but...
2. Measure NO3 and PO4. Mud and Carbon will solve Nitrates, not phosphates.
3. Measure NH4 and NO2. Are you fully cycled? Dead snails will raise ammonia.
4. Are you skimming?
5. Do you have an ATS or other export mechanism?
6. Are you over feeding?
7. How is your water flow/circulation?
8. How long is your photoperiod?
9. Are you dosing anything?
10. What's your average temperature, pH and salinity?
11. What's your WC rhythm and volume?
12. Do you have filtration media (bio balls), mechanical (socks, sponges) or absorption media (GAC, phosphate absorption, etc..)
13. Do you have a UV sterilizer?
14. Do you have a phosphate reactor (GFO, Phosguard)?
15. What salt do you use?
Hate to sound like a doctor diagnosing by phone, but...
Thanks, Karim. I'll do some checking, but nothing you listed jumps out at me except for the dead snail/ammonia scenario, or phosphate. As I said, the problem is improving, but not enough for my liking. I went digging around to find my conch, to no avail. I'll keep at.
I'll do some more research to see if there's anything else I hadn't thought of. The tanks just over three months old, so it's not an unusual problem, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!
I'll do some more research to see if there's anything else I hadn't thought of. The tanks just over three months old, so it's not an unusual problem, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!
ichthyogeek
New member
Another thing you forgot to mention was the barnacle blennies. How are you feeding them? If it's localized feeding, and they're getting everything, then that might not be a cause. However, if you're broadcast feeding, then maybe there's leftover food that never gets eaten. What about the mollies? Same concept here, except that they should be eating all the microalgae they can find, right?
I'm broadcast feeding the blennies, but pretty sparingly, and only every other day. And with pretty strong gyre flow around the tank, they get multiple shots at it. Plus they eat continuously on random stuff floating around, everyday. I have 6 nassarius snails for uneaten food cleanup. The mollies aren't fed, they just eat algae, until they figure out the blenny feedings. So I don't think it's an overfeeding/leftover problem, but I might be wrong. Hopefully, introducing more detrivores will help in this regard.
Besides the dead snail idea, it could be phosphate leaching from my old coral skeleton rocks I used for the planter. But since they've been in other tanks before, I kind of doubt it. There's also the possibility of the cyano feeding itself, for which I think the best approach is manual removal and good ol' water changes.
Thanks, Ichthogeek, and keep the ideas coming, folks! I appreciate it!
Besides the dead snail idea, it could be phosphate leaching from my old coral skeleton rocks I used for the planter. But since they've been in other tanks before, I kind of doubt it. There's also the possibility of the cyano feeding itself, for which I think the best approach is manual removal and good ol' water changes.
Thanks, Ichthogeek, and keep the ideas coming, folks! I appreciate it!
karimwassef
Active member
Dude... Get a $20 test kit from API and put some data on a page 
Dude! I have test kits, but I'm reluctant to use them. Why? Lets say I test for phosphate. Results reveal high phosphate. So what? I already suspected that, and I'm making adjustments. Suppose the test shows phosphate is undetectable. Then what? Test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate? Those will be processed by my tank. In my experience, testing only confuses me and causes me to take the wrong course of action. There's also false positives, false negatives and plain old user error. Yahoo! I prefer observation, deduction, experience and research. I wasn't always like this. It took years. That's how I roll now. I wouldn't suggest for you or anyone else to do it this way.
My point is, testing doesn't reveal the cause of the problem, nor does it present a solution. Oftentimes they reveal perfect water conditions-the algae has already taken up the offending pollutant. Whether it's phosphate or nitrate or ammonia is unimportant. Algae's pretty simple. It reveals an excess of (whatever)nutrients that the present system is unable to completely process. So I reduce nutrient input, bolster the system's nutrient processing ability and increase nutrient export. And I give this very young tank TIME to mature.
For me, testing is observing THE TANK. If the tank turns green, I have excess nutrients.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll climb down from my high horse, step off the soapbox, and go to bed…
My point is, testing doesn't reveal the cause of the problem, nor does it present a solution. Oftentimes they reveal perfect water conditions-the algae has already taken up the offending pollutant. Whether it's phosphate or nitrate or ammonia is unimportant. Algae's pretty simple. It reveals an excess of (whatever)nutrients that the present system is unable to completely process. So I reduce nutrient input, bolster the system's nutrient processing ability and increase nutrient export. And I give this very young tank TIME to mature.
For me, testing is observing THE TANK. If the tank turns green, I have excess nutrients.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll climb down from my high horse, step off the soapbox, and go to bed…
karimwassef
Active member
LOL. So, when you have a fever ... No tests for you? Bacterial or viral, or malaria... It'll work itself out.
Symptoms can be common across different sources of problems. Data can be wrong, misinterpreted, or just exhibit error - but measurement (and measurement error) is part of any feedback loop.
Symptoms can be common across different sources of problems. Data can be wrong, misinterpreted, or just exhibit error - but measurement (and measurement error) is part of any feedback loop.
karimwassef
Active member
Off my box on a high horse too. Just trying to help.
sam.basye
New member
Lol. I'm just like you except... My theory is if there's algae - too much nutrients.
Test kit - shows there's something wrong.
Me - I either don't have the right additive to treat the problem, don't know what I should use to treat the problem, or I'm too cheap to buy something to fix the problem. Haha
Water changes are the easiest thing and usually fix the problem...
temporarily. Just like manual removal.
I have a number of additives/supplements and bottles of reef solutions that I add periodically. Do they work? I don't know. The bottles say they do this and that so I just take their word for it and dump away. [emoji14]
Test kit - shows there's something wrong.
Me - I either don't have the right additive to treat the problem, don't know what I should use to treat the problem, or I'm too cheap to buy something to fix the problem. Haha
Water changes are the easiest thing and usually fix the problem...
temporarily. Just like manual removal.
I have a number of additives/supplements and bottles of reef solutions that I add periodically. Do they work? I don't know. The bottles say they do this and that so I just take their word for it and dump away. [emoji14]
Thanks, Karim. I'm glad you were amused. I must admit, I amused myself writing it. But it is my opinion, based on my own experience. I've tested and probed with the best of them, when I was inexperienced and searching for answers. Nowadays I rely on my giant head…
"Symptoms can be common across different sources of problems. Data can be wrong, misinterpreted, or just exhibit error - but measurement (and measurement error) is part of any feedback loop."
Whoosh! That's the sound of your above statements going right over my head. I have no idea what you meant to say. Can you dumb it down a little?
Sam.basye, I think I know what you mean. I too have been seduced by some very professional looking bottles…
"Symptoms can be common across different sources of problems. Data can be wrong, misinterpreted, or just exhibit error - but measurement (and measurement error) is part of any feedback loop."
Whoosh! That's the sound of your above statements going right over my head. I have no idea what you meant to say. Can you dumb it down a little?
Sam.basye, I think I know what you mean. I too have been seduced by some very professional looking bottles…
karimwassef
Active member
Ok. To make improvements, you must measure something and relate actions/choices to changes in those measurements.
That way, you can relate turning the knob to the outcome you want.
So, you discover a shower but have no idea how to make it work. You turn the knob to the left, right and pull the knob forward or backward. Great - what does that do? Measure flow, measure temperature and relate the action to the outcome... Now, you can fine tune the temperature and flow.
That way, you can relate turning the knob to the outcome you want.
So, you discover a shower but have no idea how to make it work. You turn the knob to the left, right and pull the knob forward or backward. Great - what does that do? Measure flow, measure temperature and relate the action to the outcome... Now, you can fine tune the temperature and flow.
saltwater sam
New member
I have to agree with Karim, test that water! Science is all about testing. You might realize you have high nutrients but by testing them you'll figure out which ones are high. When you know which ones are high you'll be much more capable of pinpointing the source, thereby preventing excesses of that nutrient in the future. Test, Michael, test!! Almighty science demands it!
Your logic is sound-measure specific parameters so you know what to adjust.
Unfortunately, even accurate test results can lead you down the wrong path. Suppose I've got a bunch of algae, and I test for phosphate. The test shows no phosphate (a likely scenario, if the algae has all the phosphate bound up) Going by this test, I would conclude that I need to dose phosphate. This is an extreme and simplified example, but I can remember similar occurrences in my younger days.
So we both make good points. My disdain for tests stems from what they can't tell you. I find that my years of experience, observation, and more than a little reading, is a better guide for what I need to do.
Unfortunately, even accurate test results can lead you down the wrong path. Suppose I've got a bunch of algae, and I test for phosphate. The test shows no phosphate (a likely scenario, if the algae has all the phosphate bound up) Going by this test, I would conclude that I need to dose phosphate. This is an extreme and simplified example, but I can remember similar occurrences in my younger days.
So we both make good points. My disdain for tests stems from what they can't tell you. I find that my years of experience, observation, and more than a little reading, is a better guide for what I need to do.
saltwater sam
New member
All tests can do is provide you data, they can't tell you what to do. Combine that data with the info in your head, you'll have more information to work with!
karimwassef
Active member
I advocate for data. Wisdom is in combining the data and observation with your big head and compatriots online to make good decisions (most of the time).
If you make bad ones - write them down and learn a better way to use the data. AND your mistakes inform the collective and makes all our heads bigger.
If you make bad ones - write them down and learn a better way to use the data. AND your mistakes inform the collective and makes all our heads bigger.
