Caulerpa prolifera

Chiming in on this thread a little late...

My LFS has a tank full of macroalgae. One time he says "want some chaeto?" I didn't really know much about it, but I do have a red slime problem I'd like to fix. Finally one day I asked for some, and he gave me a wad. Now that I had it in my sump, I decided to learn some more about it. (That's the way right? Buy first, ask Q's later? :D) Well, turns out it wasn't chaeto at all, but it was caulerpa prolifera. Ooops.

At first I was a little steamed because of the "going sexual" possiblity. After reading this thread, I'm calming down some. I do have softies (mushrooms and a toadstool) in my main tank.

I haven't decided if I should dump it and get real chaeto, or just leave it.
 
If you've got room in the sump, get some sand and some laterite (it's a FW planted tank substrate - iron rich). Plunk the runners into the sand and it should really grow nicely and starve out the red cyanno bacteria slime. Needs good light, though, so try a LOA floodlight bulb from HD - 75watt equivalent PC "bright daylight" (uses like 25 watts - cool to the touch). With the addition of sand and this particular species of Caulerpa, you get something way better than just Chaeto. Chaeto ("Brillo Pad", "Spaghetti") works great in sandless sumps, like a coarse filter floss that 'pods like to live in.

A few types of Caulerpas actually DO pull nutrients up out of the sand with their "roots" - the structure is called siphonophore (not the cool plankton animal colonies, but just a botanic term for the structures function). What this means is that all the crapola that builds up in the sump will be fertilizer for this Caulerpa, as well as feed any little sandbed critters and bacteria. This macro addition to the sandbed will make de-nitrifying process much more efficient, and even prevent any notable build-up of sulphides in the deeper regions of the sand; all macros like sulphides as much as ammonia and nitrate. LFS dude did you a favor by faking you out on this Caulerpa prolifera - do him a favor back and "edjimicate" him 'bout how to plant and care for this well-behaved, mild-mannered and very utile macro!

By the way, if you don't secure prolifera to the sand, it will suffer - really needs and prefers to be "planted" just like a terrestrial plant. Cover the runners and stalk bottoms with little piles of sand high enough so it doesn't float free; it will put out runners that lay atop the sand on it's own later, but they will be secured by "root" (holdfast) growth. To keep any 'fuge macro working and healthy, thin it a couple times a month (if it is growing prolifically) by careful hand-pinching it at a couple places along the runners - if you cut it up a lot, it will "bleed" out its cytoplasm. Macros are really just huge single cell algaes; they don't have veins and fibres like higher plants, so be gentle with them.
 
mellen, thanks for the excellent, detailed information. Presently I have the prolifera in my sump with some rocks holding it down. I'm not willing/able to put sand in there, so it doesn't sound like it's going to work out. That's a shame, I wouldn't have purchased it had I known ahead of time.
 
Oh, well! Maybe give LFS a little complaint and see if they have some real, actual bona fide Chaetomorpha to trade it for - stuff really does work great. A little laterite (it's a coarse red gravel) in the sump, even in a little bag, will leach out enough iron in tiny amounts to keep it nice and vigorous.
 
i bought some liquid iron hoping to boost macro growth and
got a nice increase in hair algae:eek1: so be careful with
adding nutrients:)
 
Howdy, elisabeth! Yeah, I've experienced that before in FW and SW...I prefer water changes or a little laterite gravel instead - slower release of tiny amounts of iron without creating a nutrient bonanza for the pesky, opportunistic, lightning fast micros. Either way, dosing at half the bottle recommendation over twice the time period is less likely to backfire on you.
 
I was at war with the caluerpa that took off in my main tank, and have been much happier with the chaeto I'm using now.
 
No surprise, there.... SOME of the Caulerpa division species (by the way, there are over seventy distinct species within division Caulerpa, differently shaped, and with extremely variable behavior and "risk" levels) commonly available in the hobby are incredibly aggressive, prolific, opportunistic and highly competitive. They are, in other words, utterly unsuitable for use in reef or even fish/live rock set ups. Since they are ridiculously easy to collect or propagate, they are offered for sale too casually, because they represent nearly pure profit to irresponsible and/or ignorant sellers. These macros are not for the inexperienced. This wide-spread phenomenon is a cause for frustration and even outrage amongst experienced planted tank (both FW and SW) hobbyists to see that these problematic species as often the only option available to refugium and macro display user noobs. For an analogy, wouldn't you think it both skewed and unkind for LFS and online stores to offer fish which are innappropriate as to eventual adult size, diet, behaviour, and toxicity to be offered to newcomers as "fine" to use in mixed reef community tanks? Well, I'm P.O.'d that virtual Kudzu is about all that one gets to see and buy in this area of the aquarium hobby! The use of macros is new enough in the reef aquarium school of thought (or paradigm, within the aquarium hobby in general) that a lot of snake-oil, misinformation, "urban legend"-level nonsense and disaster-ridden "advice"are all a lot of folks have to choose from, so it is not surprising that there is a lot of fear and loathing about algae in general.

This is all just a crying shame, and a point which really needs to be addressed within the hobby forums, like RC. It really pains me to read a post by a senior staff member arguing that he seriously doubts that macros consume CO2 to any appreciable degree (CO2 is one of the 2 main ingredients of the chemical process known as "photosynthesis", along with PAR or, Photo Synthetically Available light, without which life on Earth would not be possible in the form we know it), and get away with that statement without being challenged by anyone, mostly because we dare not pipe up and correct it, because apparantly that is seen as some kind of heresy here and on other forums. Oh, well...just goes to underscore the fact that these really are amateur forums, run by amateurs for (even less educated to detail) amateurs. I can think of no better example of how bad the problem with science illiteracy is in the general public! Somebody define the terms "greenhouse gasses" and "global warming" for these folks I speak of...(hint; CO2).

All we really have, since there are next to no books for hobbyists about marine macro algae and vascular plants, are anecdotal diaries and hobbyist comments by caring responsible sellers and collector/hobbyists like John and Shelley, me, elisabeth, Bob Fenner, plant brain, Kevin, frick'n'frags, etc., etc. to stem this tide of poor to bad experiences with the very basis of the reef ecosystem - algae! Corals as we know them cannot exist without zooxanthellae (dinoflagellate single cell micro ALGAE); we can't seem to learn the trick of keeping the non-zooxanthellate speices for long. Most of the Keys sand we put live into our tanks is composed of calcerous/coralline ALGAE remnants. The sand make-up of over 90% of the Great Barrier Reef is calcerous algal remnant material. These facts have been written about in articles by our favorite experts here on RC and in many other sources that reefs are more accurately described as ALGAL Reefs, not Coral Reefs...big surprise? Shouldn't be! All ecosystems with available sunlight are based on photosynthesizing plants and algae as the first and primary and main source of food for the food chain, period. The only exceptions are volcanic vent seabed microecologies ("chemosynthesis"; Google that!) and in deep caves (based on the guano or excrement of bats and insects that leave the cave to forage outside, in the photosyntheitc world beyond).

O.K., now I'm done with my soapbox speech...should the Mods or Admin decide it's time to move me on, go to it! I just want my subscription refunded in full and my card number removed from the database for renewals and an apology remmitted to a certain former member here, who was not as erudite a writer as I am, in my amateurish way. And I do hope I deeply offended all of you who can neither remember your fifth grade science classes and who also think that plants and macros are the enemy in reef tanks! I've no more patience for such bully-ish ignorance and will have no more part in defending a basic premise in marine science whilst fearing for whether I've "gone too far" in stating the facts...

Farewell, perhaps, and gee, hope all this helped answer your questions, friends...
 
M'Ellen,

Debating concepts is certainly fine, and something you do well and in a respectable manner. Certainly no need for anyone to consider moving you on ;)

BTW the CO2 thing that was mentioned by another staff memeber was in context of the entire tank. When you consider circulation and gas exchange with the atmosphere going on in our reef tanks, it is unlikely for excess CO2 to be a problem for our beloved macor's and sea grasses to cure.
 
Sorry for that turning into a venting session - it's been bothering me for almost two weeks, now, so I finally blew a gasket! Bob is a buddy, and I feel crappy that he can't post anymore.

I'm sitting here typing this next to a freshwater planted tank that has a CO2 injection system to stimulate plant growth; it is as de rigeur a piece of equipment as a skimmer or calcium reactor for a reef tank. Due to the natural buffering capacity of this mineral salt-laden brackish water planted tank (African riverine, based on outflow from the Rift Lakes toward the sea), my PH stays at 8.2 peak, to nader of 7.9 at night - nearly identical to a marine tank. Due to the capacity of water - in whatever form - to be saturated by more than one speciation of gas, the oxygen level remains high, too, averaging 97% btween day/night swings, so there is no issue of stressing the fish.

Obviously, I am impatient to see the marine counterpart to planted tanks become better understood. Freshwater hobbyists with large, substrate-rooting fish and crustaceans (which means plants can't survive in the display) are already getting on the plant/algal scrubber refugium bandwagon to keep their water parameters healthy and nuisance fw microalgae under control. The fact that Schurann recently came out with the first practical FW protein skimmers for ponds and large FW tanks has not gone unnoticed by them, either!

Just wish the sharing of experience and research and breakthroughs was a little more of a two-way street, and that the efforts to communicate these thoughts and ideas was met with much less wariness. The fact that it can be difficult to cite expert or official sources to back up one's claims from experience with macros and marine vascular plants just shows how little crossover there is between the scientific community and the marine hobby on this subject at this point in time. However, that these ideas are new (or seemingly so) does not mean they are invalid. One is just witnessing the "growing pains" associated with pushing the envelope and stretching the paradigm (hmmmm...how many metaphors is too many in one sentence?...:p ).
 
really though, do you think that maco's are a problem in SW?
i've only had problems with hair algae, i only wish macro's grew
as fast and/or opportunistically--and in reality, that's what most
are striving for isn't it--to 'outcompete' the hair algae for
nutrients by using macro's?
 
elisabeth,

There are two schools on the use of macro's. Some just use them in a refugium/scrubber type set up to outcompete micro algae's. And of course there people like M'ellen and Plantbrain that like them for display purposes on top of the utilitarian one's ;) Unfortunately the later are rather rare, but slowly growing in numbers :)
 
oh, yeah, i completely agree that the decorative aspect of maco's
is underestimated and there are many kinds that i wish i could get to flourish, so yeah, i guess in that respect maybe the
better known 'common' species would be a problem. Heck, i'm
just happy anything grows!:) hehehehe
 
You've both touched on really good points, and these points have actually led to controversy and some rather bitter exchanges between thread posters elsewhere on RC and on other marine hobbyist sites. It really is a clash of paradigms!

In the planted method, one depends on the plants much much more than nitrifying bacteria to "cycle" the tank and ready it for animal introduction. Since the plants (marine macros, too) absolutely thrive on and prefer ammonia, they scavenge it out of the water quickly and before any nitrifying bacteria really have a chance. Understand we are not talking about little wisps of green and red, but fat root bulbs and generous clumps of plants installed in the substrate and attached to decor on day one after filling the tank with water. In a FW set up, the water need not be RO/DI or even dechlorinated if there are no animals to worry about, and how many gardeners bother dechlorinating before watering their plants? We don't care about the chlorine killing bacteria, because we're not going to be depending on them, anyway. In the meanwhile, of the fw bacteria being suppressed are the nuisance cyanobacteria and single cell micro algae, too. Over a surprisingly short period of time the chloramine is broken down, as are the chlorine and fluorides and nitrates, and copper ions through metabolic and photosynthetic processes in the plants tissues and via oxidation into ammonia compounds (more plant food!). You just don't end up going through the toxic spike levels of ammonia to nitrites to nitrates like you do with bacterial cycling. The bacteria are there (if you dechlorinate), but in the much smaller concentrations that they occur in in the wild. The plants (and, yes, macro algae too) represent instant biomass for processing nutrient toxins, thereby rendering the dependence on nitrifying bacteria moot. Starting a marine tank from day one with macro algae and/or vascular plants in display and/or refugium will offer the same results. You will also be preventing the annoying micro algal blooms that otherwise occur in new tanks. I would warn that macros, being just huge highly evolved single cell algae are as vulnerable to large concentrations of chlorine as are micro algae, but they will not be harmed if you decide to forgo RO/DI water (most salt mixes have disodium sulfate dechlorinator built in to the mix, anyway, so one would be somewhat challenged to set up an experiment to see if any macros could survive "raw" tap-based saltwater mixtures).


Some FW hobbyists are fascinated by the use of live sand and live rock in reef aquaria, and are getting great results collecting the freshwater equivalent from clean, healthy ponds, lakes and creeks. This added biodiversity makes the plants and fish even happier, and they can add quite a few more fish safely within 2 weeks of starting a tank with these methods. As it is usually done, though, a prepared substrate is carefully set up using dry gravel with a layer of iron-rich laterite gravel between, and plugging in fertilizer tablets or bits of fish food to rot and provide ammonia for initial plant root growth, or a few small fish or snails are added as soon as the water cloudiness subsides, along with setting up a CO2 diffuser kit.

When I set up my 2 new nanos, on day one I had macro in both. In one tank, the cured LR shipment had been delayed in transit and suffered great die-off; the huge clump of Chaeto I floated in there helped remove the stench within days. The tank achieved stable params two weeks later. In the other nano with a smaller mass of Chaeto and much smaller lb-per-gallon percentage of shipment-damaged rock, there never was a detectable cycle. I have done this recently with great success, and have done this for many years in FW, and even did this in marine as a kid many years ago, collecting substrate and marine grasses and Caulerpas to set up my tanks before collecting my fish, mollusks and anemones (boy! I just followed what I knew from school - had I known then how weird and scary this would seem to some folks 30 odd years later!).:p
 
Polychaete, I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. Lots of times on these threads people complain about something and I think, what are they talking about? and I go back and reread and I still don't understand. Granted, sometimes I have read nasty stuff, but this was not one of those times.

I'm currently experimenting with macros myself, I just recently bought some prolifera, codium, penicillus, and gracilaria, and previously had added botryocladia and chaetomorpha. I put the penicillus in the main tank, the rest are in the refugium. I converted my refugium to mud-based substrate just last weekend, so have no information to contribute at this time, other than to say I'm one more person working on this. I always had heavily planted freshwater tanks--to me that is what made the tank worth having. It was never easy, though--I fought algae all the way. Oddly, my 50 gallon freshwater is finally reasonably algae-free for the first time ever, but the sad thing is, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY! I'm afraid to breathe for fear it will all start up again! Maybe putting a saltwater tank in the same room cured it, all the algae moved over to the saltwater ;-)
 
mellen, I'm glad you found this thread

mellen, I'm glad you found this thread

Mellen,
I want to thank you for contributing to this thread. You have been a breath of fresh air.

It's been said, by a former RC member, that I use only tap water in my systems. Well, that is true. I have used tap water since 1984. I've used it in four different cities as; Well Water(high in numerous minerals), and water treated with chloramine and chlorine alone. I had great success keeping fish and plants. I do and have always added a de-chloronator like; Start Right or Stress Coat. I do prefer Start Right over the Stress Coat.
It has been great to see new people add to this thread and appreciate bill of Bill's Reef adding as well. I do find it strange that I had my signature removed because it contained a link, but a retailer can use a retail name as a mod.???!!! Anyway, thanks for the input Bill.
I would still like to hear more from people that are using the Caulerpa prolifera in either a refugium or in the main tank.
 
Thank you so much; I just worry that I'm putting folks to sleep with my ramblings sometimes!

Cabin, I have a question. How often do you vac your gravel in the FW? You may be looking at a mulm build up, and just like in marine without a live sandbed or BB, that stuff needs to be removed before building up too much. The use of collected, bio-active substrates in FW planted or the intentional addition of lots of livebearing snails, planaria, annelids, clams & mussels, insect larvae and daphnia is catching on in that end of the hobby because of how much this strategy has helped advance the marine hobby.
 
We'll I've had prolifera in my tank for between 5 and 6 months now I guess. Because of my inhabitants I use macro's for more than just a scrubber. I have right around 7 different macro in my 55g display, and prolifera covers almost 50% of the substraight. It is by far my favorate macro. It grows like a weed, looks like a seagrass (which don't grow fast/at all in my tank) and sticks to the sand. I also keep it in my refuge where it seems to fight more to stay alive with a mass of razor. It doesn't get trimed often in the main tank every few weeks we pull out a few handfulls and spread it around between fry tanks and adding to the sump. I do dose iron but haven't had any problems with prolifera at all. It sticks to the sand and has left my rocks alone, and is absolutely beautiful covering my sandbed. The razor has attached to rocks in the main tank and was all but banished to the refuge a few months back.

I wanted to add seahorses are extremly messy eaters. They need ghost shrimp target feed and 1/2 the time they will only eat a head or a tail and the rest floats away to rot where we can't find it. We also feed frozen mysis which will cloud the water for a few minutes with little chunks of thawed out food, not to mention being scattered all of the tank again to rot when the horses start tussling over who gets what. I'm absolutely sure without the amazing growth (and nutrient export) of prolifera I couldn't possibly have made it threw the first few weeks of adding the horses. I had a few fish in the tank for several months before adding the horses but nothing could have prepaired my biofilter for what was instore for it. We saw a small spike to .25 of ammonia for a few days and a huge growth in prolifera that hasn't really slowed.
 
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