Check Out My Electrical Panel; Step by Step Pics....

[LunarCubes]

Well normally there not supposed to trip out of the blue. I have never had a problem with them tripping like this before, its just the stupid PC ballast fault. When GFCIs get older, they do tend to malfunction but usually they dont trip at all rather then tripping all the time...

- Jeremy

 

[Undergrad]

Jeremy,
Awesome setup! Glad to see you're putting your skills to use in the hobby.

Just seems like they're a PITA. I read a post by a guy who's tank crashed b/c he was out of town for a couple days and his gfci had tripped.

My GFCI trips anytime our power goes out, so I'm plumbing my tank with a closed loop run by an external/submersible pump (an eheim) run externally. This way I don't have to worry about the power going out momentarily and killing my tank.

Arlan

 

[LunarCubes]

Arlan,
Thanks... About your GFCI tripping when your power goes out, thats not normal. Are you running any PCs? If so, unplug them from the circuit, then go to the breaker panel and flip the breaker off wait a sec then flip it back on. If the GFCI doesnt trip then its the PC ballast thats causing you the trouble (just like mine). If it still trips w/o the PC ballast plugged in, then you can try unplugging things one by one and testing it to see if anything like that is causing it. If all else fails, replace the GFCI and see if that fixes things. BTW, how old is the GFCI?

- Jeremy

 

[Putawaywet]

LunarCubes,

Nice clean setup you got there and I hope it gives you years of trouble free use.

Got a question for you.... have you had any probs with the lamp timers sticking? I'm running a total of 8 of the Intermatic's and I'm finding that 1 or 2 of them are sticking one or two times a month. When I depress the override window the timer immediately flashes "No-Op" on the display. I discovered that a good swift whack with a rubber mallet usually persuades the stubbon offender (internal servo??) into submission, but I've had to switch out 2 or 3 completely after repeated failures.

Also, being one of those guys that thought it would be cool to have GFCI's on each and every outlet I quickly discovered that my IceCap 660 as well as those cheapo little 8w PC transformers were tripping them at least once a week. No probs from the MH whatsoever, just the flourescents and PC's. So, I'm slowly swapping out the GFCI to standard outlets on everything except my heater as that is the only thing that comes into contact with the water. The way my cabinet is configured I figure if water get's down to where my ballasts are my probs will be so large I will probably welcome a life-altering jolt.

Brett

 

[LunarCubes]

Brett,
Thanks... Never had a problem like that before. I have a few questions about the problem timers: How long have you had them? How much of a load is on them? Have you recently changed the battery? Is it exposed to really cold temps? I was looking at the online instructions and this is what it said:

The display is ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“noOpââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ (Meaning no Operation) if the timer fails to operate. This can happen in very cold temperatures.
Normal timer operation should resume at normal temperatures. Press any button to clear the message(s).
If the ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“noOpââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ remains at normal temperatures with a fresh battery, timer needs to be replaced.

If I were you I would only bypass the GFCIs for your PC ballasts and keep everything else on it. Its much safer that way and you shouldnt have problems with them tripping since the PC ballasts wont be connected to them. I havent had a problem, yet (knock on wood), with my Aqua UV sterilizer tripping the GFCI and I do believe its uses a PC ballast. If not PC, it is some sort of flourescent light.

The way my cabinet is configured I figure if water get's down to where my ballasts are my probs will be so large I will probably welcome a life-altering jolt.

LMAO :lol: Thats very true!!!

- Jeremy

 

[Putawaywet]

Well, they're basically running everything on my 2 tanks and 1 vivarium:

2 for Cold Cathode moonlighting
2 for 8w pc's
1 on my 4x54w T5's w/ IceCap 660
1 each for my 3 250w e-ballasted DE's pendants
And 1 on my 2.5 amp airpump (one of the more reliable one of the batch)
And 1 for the automatic misting system in the viv

This is my first experience with these particular models as my previous tank used the older bigger Intermatics that plugged into outlets and those were seemed way more reliable. I really only started having probs with those after 2-3 years and batteries seemed to last anywhere from 12-24 months.

But these new ones have all required battery replacement in less than 6 months and at least one sticks once a week or more. Surprisingly, I have 2 that have never failed.

And they are all in cabinets that are 75-80 degrees with no exposure to saltwater or any other harsh environment.

I have one from HD that was flashing No-Op from the moment I brought it home. I've even gone so far as to open a couple of them up to see what the prob might be and couldn't find a thing wrong. Then, after I snapped them back together they worked fine for like another 2-3 weeks.

I also have one of their newer plug in models that is totally relaible and is totally silent when it turns on and off. But these hard-wired ones seem to have some kind of servo inside as they made a slight whirrling noise when they turn on and off.

Brett

 

[Putawaywet]

You know, now that I'm talking this out.... I'm seeing a pattern here.

My most chronic offenders are all connected to some kind of AC lighting ballast. Either MH, PC or the T5's.

The airpump, misting pump (12vDC) and cold cathode tubes (12v DC) all function flawlessly.

Hmmmmm??? Wonder what it is about an AC ballast that is giving these things probs?

Brett

 

[LunarCubes]

Hmmm... You may be on to something there. 3 of my timers control ballasts and the other 1 controls my moons and the fuge light, which neither have ballasts. I will monitor them over the next few months and see if I have any problems like your having.

 

[Undergrad]

About your GFCI tripping when your power goes out, thats not normal. Are you running any PCs? If so, unplug them from the circuit, then go to the breaker panel and flip the breaker off wait a sec then flip it back on. If the GFCI doesnt trip then its the PC ballast thats causing you the trouble (just like mine). If it still trips w/o the PC ballast plugged in, then you can try unplugging things one by one and testing it to see if anything like that is causing it. If all else fails, replace the GFCI and see if that fixes things. BTW, how old is the GFCI?

- Jeremy

Yes I do have PCs plugged into the GFCI... and now that I think about it this may also explain the problem my wife and I were having with another GFCI switch we were using on another tank of ours that also was using PCs. I'd never heard of this problem before... I just thought that was how GFCI switches worked. I also have problems with my GFCI when I plug a computer power supply into it (using it to power some LEDs and computer fans...). It tends to trip after 5-10 mins of plugging in the power supply... Anyways, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'll definetely determine if the PCs are the cause tonight.

Arlan

 

[uncleof6]

LunarCubes and others

GFCI's have a tendancy to nuisance trip in a motor circuit pumps are run by motors hence the GFCI's are going to nuisance trip it is the nature of motors without getting to technical about it.... they are full of short circuits... to ground..... the trick setup is to hardwire the motors to a motor controller circuit properly rated for the motor size and then to a circuit breaker properly rated for the wire guage.... thus eliminating the need for a GFCI involved with your pump motors... if you want HI TECH that is where it is....

Hey just my pennies worth...

Jim

 

[electric130]

plus, pumps have a surge of power during startup, which can cause an imbalance between hot and neutral and trip it. i think that's why PC ballasts trip it too. small fluctuations in power freak out the GFI and trip it. FWIW, my electronic Icecap VHO and MH ballasts have never tripped my GFI's. i think it's when some companies use inferior equipment to build ballasts to try to save money. then you've got an unstable ballast that likes to trip GFI's.

 

[uncleof6]

Here again. to eliminate the nuisance tripping of GFCI's, hardwire your ballasts to a rely appropriately sized and then to an appropriately sized circuit breaker... similar to a motor control circuit. FWIW GFCI is intended to protect people not equipment... and is not needed unless the appliance or whatever is connected by a plug....hence the hard wiring. also when using a relay, the person is more isolated from the higher voltages (if using dc relays) and that is a very beneficial thing around saltwater dont you think?

Again my pennies worth

Jim

 

[electric130]

i hear you on that, and i agree. however, i don't think that most people on here have the electrical capacity to accomplish what you just said. i guess if their problems continue and they get into dire straits, they could hire someone to do it.

 

[uncleof6]

oh and while I am thinking about it, I saw a reference a while back to the electric code... JFYI the jurisdiction of the National Electric Code (and state and local codes) ends at the wall recepticle you plug your system into. Even if you have a full blown 30 amp subpanel in your stand... as long as it is plug connected to the wall, the code does not apply.....if you hard wire the subpanel to the main panel then it does... just more useless info perhaps... I am good at that.... if you follow "code" when you wire up your system it will be safer certainly... anyone care to go for a UL Listing?
:eek2:

 

[uncleof6]

i hear you on that, and i agree. however, i don't think that most people on here have the electrical capacity to accomplish what you just said. i guess if their problems continue and they get into dire straits, they could hire someone to do it.

Maybe a thread on Aquarium Electrical is in order? Motor controls and lighting controls are not really all that complicated......




Jim

 

[Undergrad]

quote:
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Originally posted by electric130
i hear you on that, and i agree. however, i don't think that most people on here have the electrical capacity to accomplish what you just said. i guess if their problems continue and they get into dire straits, they could hire someone to do it.
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Maybe a thread on Aquarium Electrical is in order? Motor controls and lighting controls are not really all that complicated......

Now thats a great idea! It would definetely help people like me who don't even know what a relay is for. Maybe you could also recommend some good books to get folks like me started.

Arlan

 

[overflowin]

how would you be able to use a DC relay in a 110v AC system? would you have to use an AC - DC converter? are there AC relays that could be used to make a jacuzzi timer work as an interupt, to turn pumps off for feeding time?

thanks
donnie

 

[electric130]

how would you be able to use a DC relay in a 110v AC system? would you have to use an AC - DC converter? are there AC relays that could be used to make a jacuzzi timer work as an interupt, to turn pumps off for feeding time?

thanks
donnie

you have a relay with a 12 or 24 VDC coil that's powered by a 12 or 24VDC power supply controlled by a float switch, toggle switch or whatever. the contacts close and then 120VAC flows across the contacts to power your equipment. not that hard really. you can just as easily buy relays with 120VAC coils. or 220VAC coils. or 24VAC coils. or 48VDC coils, etc., etc. not sure how a jacuzzi timer works, otherwise i could probably tell you how to do it. feeding timers are not that hard to make. with a little IC knowledge, you can make one for whatever time you'd like. even adjustable.

 

[overflowin]

i have worked with realys for the past 4 years, insalling car alarms and remote starts, so i am familiar with DC relays.

the way the jacuzzi timer works is you hit a button and it closes the circuit for a certain amount of time, turning your jets on and then back off after an hour, or whatever the time is. what i want to do is use that timer switch and a relay so that when you hit the switch, the voltage flows thru the switch and energizes the relay. when the relay is energized it would open the circuit to the pumps, so that flow would be minimal during target feeding.

as far as using a 12vdc relay, would a standard bosch relay support that kind of voltage across the contacts?

sorry for the run on/thread hijacking...
donnie

 

[electric130]

i have worked with realys for the past 4 years, insalling car alarms and remote starts, so i am familiar with DC relays.

AC relays are no different. coils and contacts. that's all any of them are.

the way the jacuzzi timer works is you hit a button and it closes the circuit for a certain amount of time, turning your jets on and then back off after an hour, or whatever the time is. what i want to do is use that timer switch and a relay so that when you hit the switch, the voltage flows thru the switch and energizes the relay. when the relay is energized it would open the circuit to the pumps, so that flow would be minimal during target feeding.

you'd have to give the timer whatever power supply it needed, and find out what type of power it puts out (AC or DC and voltage.) then connect the output of the timer to the coil of the relay. run the power for your pumps across the NC contacts of the relay (this is of couse assuming you're using at least a DPDT) so when the timer's off, system normal, power is flowing through the relay contacts to run the pump. when you want to feed, start the timer, coil energizes and disconnects power to the pump. pretty simple.

as far as using a 12vdc relay, would a standard bosch relay support that kind of voltage across the contacts?

if you're talking about for this application, i doubt it. most 12VDC car relays i've seen were SPST. you can get a 12VDC DPDT relay from radio shack or www.jameco.com or www.alliedelec.com they're pretty cheap.