Brickyardgreg
New member
Wow so ignorant and destructive. I can't imagine how much damage they have done since 1976.
Check this out guys/gals.
- Thread starter mscarpena
- Start date
Cerastes
In Memoriam
the title to this pic says, blue and red corals, if any of you know, dead sps is bone white....., ive never seen a dead sps retain any of its color
Tubipora skeletons are red and Heliopora are blue.
lotsoftats
New member
I sent them an email...they make me sick!!!!! I hope they go bankrupt.
keywestcoralboy
Executive water changer
These guys are like the all stars of reef slaying.. Good effort boys kill it all and squish the eggs, it is incredible that they are in business at all. Just so that some tourists can take home an acro and put it on their shelf...
seapug
Premium Member
yeah, many of those photos look like mostly dead skeletons, but there's quite a few perfectly live ones in some of those photos, especially the shot of the canoe. There wasn't a single dead one in there! Kinda sad.
It is very strange that this practice is legal but sustainable collection for captive propagation and wholesale export of live corals is a legal nightmare.
Taking single colony and growing hundreds of live clones of it to sell is illegal, but taking a boatload of live corals and dumping on the beach, bleaching them with god knows what kind of chemicals THEN exporting them wholesale is perfectly fine. hmmmm.
It is very strange that this practice is legal but sustainable collection for captive propagation and wholesale export of live corals is a legal nightmare.
Taking single colony and growing hundreds of live clones of it to sell is illegal, but taking a boatload of live corals and dumping on the beach, bleaching them with god knows what kind of chemicals THEN exporting them wholesale is perfectly fine. hmmmm.
organism
code monkey
I was under the impression that they still needed CITES to import skeletons, you might want to "ask" the department of fish and wildlife if they're up to date on their permits and paperwork and if their permits cover removing and killing live corals for the purpose of drying it. A lot of those permits cover either live or dead coral, not first the one then the other, if they're complicit in the killing of live coral for the purpose of decoration they might, depending on the country, get into a lot of trouble. If they don't have the right permits they will get into a crapton of trouble and they'll have enough fines to shut them down for life.
FWIW it really looks like they're in Fiji, I guarantee you that if enough people take this up with fish and wildlife they will for sure be getting a visit. Don't just email them with "these guys are weenies", send them pics showing what they're doing. My guess is they don't have permits, and if they do it doesn't cover what they're doing.
I'm not sure which links cover corals in Florida, and don't just go bombing every link with emails until we know the right one... I don't have time at the moment but hopefully someone can research it a bit and let us know the right contact info.
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/
http://www.fws.gov/offices/directory/OfficeDetail.cfm?OrgCode=99431
http://www.fws.gov/offices/directory/ListOffices.cfm?statecode=12
FWIW it really looks like they're in Fiji, I guarantee you that if enough people take this up with fish and wildlife they will for sure be getting a visit. Don't just email them with "these guys are weenies", send them pics showing what they're doing. My guess is they don't have permits, and if they do it doesn't cover what they're doing.
I'm not sure which links cover corals in Florida, and don't just go bombing every link with emails until we know the right one... I don't have time at the moment but hopefully someone can research it a bit and let us know the right contact info.
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/
http://www.fws.gov/offices/directory/OfficeDetail.cfm?OrgCode=99431
http://www.fws.gov/offices/directory/ListOffices.cfm?statecode=12
jmchzn123
New member
OK TALK TALK TALK WHATS THE PLAN? Petition? Lets get the Sierra Club or Green peace involved. They have cash, donors and a political voice. This is way more serious than people think. Here on RC we may get it but I don't think the rest of the world sees the fragility the Reefs around the world and how dire the situation is. I only can personally speak about the FL Keys. Diving off the Keys in the early 90's through today the differences are dramatic and the USA is actively protecting the Reefs!! The Reefs around the world might be the single most endangered species (if you will) ecosystem, biotope, whatever, on the planet. Unlike air we can stop polluting and trees we can regrow the Reef damage can never be undone in our life times if ever at the rate they are dying off. Acid rain, polar melt off lowering salinity, oil, the never ending list of chemical polutants and now people actively harvesting the coral like corn is a disaster of mammoth proportions. Lets put together a conference call and come up with a strategy and execute a plan involving our forum making a difference. Maybe it will offset the consumption issue us ReefKeepers have.
organism
code monkey
Honestly those are the worst of the worst ideas. Those are the same people that want to shut this hobby down completely, and that's like coating yourself in honey and going "now if I could only find a pit filled with fire ants and bees to clean this stuff off".
There's already plenty of regulations in effect, and I'm fairly certain you can't take corals out of the water and kill them for export. To give you an idea, you can't even export the dried shells of maxima clams outside the Indo Pacific without permits, and they don't just hand those out. The permits for dead or live corals are the same, if these guys don't have them or are doing something out of line they're going to pay, you just have to contact the right authorities. It would be a lot easier if someone could just take the time and find the right email address for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Department Office that handles these things so that we can all bomb them with emails.
If you see someone speeding you don't go contacting groups that want to make sure no one's allowed to drive or want to lower the speed limit to 25mph, you call the cops and go "hey, that dude's speeding". That's what regulations and the people who enforce them are there for
Yeah, that would be because neither the blue or the red skeletons they or anyone else sell are SPS. Red is pipe organ, blue is heliopora.
Back in the 80s when the typical saltwater aquarium was decorated with nothing but coral skeletons, both were in high demand because of the color of their skeletons.
jeff@zina.com
New member
I'm not sure why you guys insist on sending an email to a company that imports this stuff. You're mad at the guy who took it out of the water, email them.
Jeff
Jeff
Yes, last I knew dried skeletons were still covered under CITES. However, CITES says nothing about how those skeletons are collected. Live or dead does not matter unless there is a specific regulation of the country of origin. Our feelings are irrelevant to the legality if the country of origin has not outlawed the practice. Fact is, many of those counties exporting dried and bleached skeletons would be just as likely (and probably do) dredge up reefs to make cement for construction (it's common practice in tropical countries). So are such practices sad, upsetting to us, and probably bad for the environment, yes. Are they illegal, no.
mscarpena
New member
I am glad people are getting involved. Also when I contacted Sea Shepards and PETA I did it so they would get involved with sending them e-mails. I did not do it so people can shutdown reefing. Also I think some reefing practices are wrong as well. I have to say though that contacting regulatory agencies is a great idea.
On a more positive note I am really glad people are still on this and sending them e-mails. Thanks for the support.
Also this might be the site we are looking to report to.
http://myfwc.com/law/Alert/MailMap.asp?region=CTY
On a more positive note I am really glad people are still on this and sending them e-mails. Thanks for the support.
Also this might be the site we are looking to report to.
http://myfwc.com/law/Alert/MailMap.asp?region=CTY
organism
code monkey
So you covered your arm in bbq sauce and waved it at a rabid bear, but you did not do it so it could bite you, gotcha.
organism
code monkey
A while ago I heard something about Fiji putting in regulations regarding removing live corals for decoration, I might be remembering it wrong though, wouldn't be the first time
My guess is they do in fact have permits as it's well, extremelly hard to get that stuff through with out them. The curio trade is larger then the aquarium trade in terms of what they harvest. We as an industry get lumped in with them though so any attacks on them will unfortunately play out on us as well. Shut them down, expect them same for us. sad but true.
Then there are harbors that have to get dredged every few months as the coral grows so fast, the boats have issues. I know several that have been contracted on such projects and one one such project yielded live coral. Rest was used for construction or curio.
On their website it says, "All items we sell are Non-endangered Species,
Cleared by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife and U.S. Customs."
Assuming that is so, then I doubt contacting any agencies will do much. It is sad though to see those large sps colonies harvested and bleached for collection.
jmchzn123
New member
Yeah probably right. I did end my rant by mentioning our consumption problem. I like your analogy and RETRACT my statement. Fanatical groups aside we should get involved in our own capacity as an organized group of Reef-keepers. It is difficult to explain to any conservationist group or animal rights group that what we really strive for as Reef-keepers is a simulation of a natural sustainable reef. The never ending expensive quest for the perfect equipment to capture the properties of NSW is a testament to that end. I mean I think we all want a smokin tank with healthy beautiful marine life. Our defense of the captive reef falls short when thousands of people who take on the endeavor fail miserably and kill so many animals which for the most part are wild animals. On top of that the notion reef- keeping fuels the corrupted collection side of our passion isn't helping our case. That passion for me BTW is not a hobby so I don't use that word and frankly our captive reef's are slowly but surely becoming a custodian of so many animals which are fast becoming endangered in our oceans. Aquaculture is becoming, although slowly, the norm rather than the exception and that is a great great thing. I know here on RC we do try to push husbandry and biology and ask all newbies research and learn and take their time to get an education before they kill everything they try to keep the first year or two.....Killing marine life the first year should not be some sort of right of passage or a "learning experience". That said I thought long and hard about your comments and I agree with you! .........more regulation is never an issue when laws in place are not enforced effectively and unfortunately most reefs are located in 3 world countries where basically cash is king and anything goes........my final thought is really getting the message out about the condition of our reefs and that awareness needs to be talked about all the time....Thanks for your insight it's greatly appreciated......... just saying.Honestly those are the worst of the worst ideas. Those are the same people that want to shut this hobby down completely, and that's like coating yourself in honey and going "now if I could only find a pit filled with fire ants and bees to clean this stuff off".
There's already plenty of regulations in effect, and I'm fairly certain you can't take corals out of the water and kill them for export. To give you an idea, you can't even export the dried shells of maxima clams outside the Indo Pacific without permits, and they don't just hand those out. The permits for dead or live corals are the same, if these guys don't have them or are doing something out of line they're going to pay, you just have to contact the right authorities. It would be a lot easier if someone could just take the time and find the right email address for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Department Office that handles these things so that we can all bomb them with emails.
If you see someone speeding you don't go contacting groups that want to make sure no one's allowed to drive or want to lower the speed limit to 25mph, you call the cops and go "hey, that dude's speeding". That's what regulations and the people who enforce them are there for
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greenbean36191
Premium Member
There really aren't any regulatory agencies you can contact about this. As long as the company has a saltwater products license and their products were brought in with the correct CITES documentation (As GreshamH pointed out, it's hard to get them into the country without it.) then they're completely within US and state law. Any laws about how the corals are actually being collected are strictly up to the country of origin, and as has already been pointed out, there are very few places where this type of collection would be illegal. Even if it was illegal, the issue would be with the collectors, not the wholesalers.
Quite honestly, what's shown in the picture is really small potatoes though. Consider that the Solomon Islands harvests about 11,000 tons of Acroporids every year just to meet their demand for lime! A couple of boatloads of corals doesn't even register on the radar of managers.
Healthy reefs have a lot of excess coral production- i.e. most of the corals that settle and start to grow will be killed before adulthood. All of that excess can be removed without having any impact on the health of the reef. From the pictures alone, there's no indication that these collectors are doing damage to the reef, though they very well may be.
Quite honestly, what's shown in the picture is really small potatoes though. Consider that the Solomon Islands harvests about 11,000 tons of Acroporids every year just to meet their demand for lime! A couple of boatloads of corals doesn't even register on the radar of managers.
Healthy reefs have a lot of excess coral production- i.e. most of the corals that settle and start to grow will be killed before adulthood. All of that excess can be removed without having any impact on the health of the reef. From the pictures alone, there's no indication that these collectors are doing damage to the reef, though they very well may be.
Although most of those colonies shown would be considered large in the hobby, only half a dozen of them would be large out on the reef. Almost all of the rest are young colonies, probably less than two years old. Most of them would have likely died before getting much bigger and they'll quickly be replaced as long as the reef is in decent shape. Even the largest ones are probably no more than a decade old and removing them in small numbers shouldn't have a major impact on coral cover.
The fact that their meat and shells are in such high demand is also the main reason they're aquacultured so widely around the Indo-Pacific and they haven't been driven to extinction.
I'm sure some of their shells are wild collected, but I would almost guarantee that the majority of them are farmed. There's a cheap, steady supply of farmed clam shells, so there's little reason to collect them from the wild. The supply of the largest shells is more scarce, but even the largest shells they sell would only take about 5 yrs to grow out from seed stock. Farms do grow a few of them to those sizes.
