Clipperton Angelfish? Legal or Illegal?

[jazzman7838]

The808State almost had the story correct, but he must have misremembered some important details. I know this because I am the one who told him! Please keep in mind that just because you guys read an article on a trusted internet blog or from a guy with lots of posts on RC, does not make it correct. You are all wildly speculating based on incomplete and in some cases factually incorrect information. Steve Robinson will not know the details of what happened to the fish afterwards either.

The USFWS agents did not hold the fish for 3 days. The USFWS agents in this case know what fish require, know how to take care of fish, and knew exactly how special these individual fish were. I can assure you that great steps were taken to keep these fish alive by a team of very capable people and all of those steps failed.

I cannot repeat the following point strongly enough, and maybe I'm wasting my typing at this point. Some people will believe whatever they want to believe about the USFWS in this scenario, that they are mean faceless drones who are only out to kill fish while Steve the adventurous Clipperton cowboy is just a victim of paperwork. It's a really depressing narrative because it's completely untrue. He lied to the US government about what he was importing and continued to lie to them even when caught red handed in his lie. He was found guilty of this in a court of law. He is a smuggler. The only person who should be blamed for these deaths is Steve Robinson.

 

[jazzman7838]

That is a great point. I was not aware that the fish sat for 3 days while USFWS twiddled their thumbs and drug their feet...If true, that is really despicable.

It's not true.

 

[rorroreef]

Ah now the pieces of the puzzle are coming together. So you're either a usfws agent or connected with them and trust me that is no putdown and not trying to bash you. We are just glad someone has the inside scoop on the loss of these beautiful fish and sad story. Thank you for sharing with us all.

 

[humaguy]

he referred to them as "Blue Passers" and not what they truly were, Clippertons...

 

[jnc914]

Jazzman7838- Stop being so cryptic and either explain how you came across this information or who you really are. You can certainly PM people if you do not want to put out personal info. But at this point, you could just be one of the many people on here speculating. You obviously are either with USFWS or are closely associated with someone that is; yet your previous posts are still somewhat vague. So since you are in the know, lets cut through the BS in this thread and just tells us if all of the fish died or not?

 

[jazzman7838]

Tell you what, PM copps and he can PM me. Or he can post here. He'll tell you that what I'm saying is the truth and not speculation.

 

[jazzman7838]

And, how are my posts vague? I'm the only one in this thread posting specific info about what happened to the fish after the seizure. If you'd like more details, ask and I will provide them. All that really matters to me is setting the record straight on the incorrect speculation which has been made all over the internet ever since this occurred back in 2009.

 

[Vili_Shark]

The808State almost had the story correct, but he must have misremembered some important details. I know this because I am the one who told him! Please keep in mind that just because you guys read an article on a trusted internet blog or from a guy with lots of posts on RC, does not make it correct. You are all wildly speculating based on incomplete and in some cases factually incorrect information. Steve Robinson will not know the details of what happened to the fish afterwards either.

The USFWS agents did not hold the fish for 3 days. The USFWS agents in this case know what fish require, know how to take care of fish, and knew exactly how special these individual fish were. I can assure you that great steps were taken to keep these fish alive by a team of very capable people and all of those steps failed.

I cannot repeat the following point strongly enough, and maybe I'm wasting my typing at this point. Some people will believe whatever they want to believe about the USFWS in this scenario, that they are mean faceless drones who are only out to kill fish while Steve the adventurous Clipperton cowboy is just a victim of paperwork. It's a really depressing narrative because it's completely untrue. He lied to the US government about what he was importing and continued to lie to them even when caught red handed in his lie. He was found guilty of this in a court of law. He is a smuggler. The only person who should be blamed for these deaths is Steve Robinson.

I said from the start, the fish are there cause of Steve, of course he is the one to blame, he tried to smuggle fish.
I believe that if he would have declare them as they are, he would not have problem, at least not in the first shipment, but that's a speculation.

In any case, the fish were seized by USFWL, that's a fact.

So you wanna tell me that these great agents did their very best to save 52 fish , they were agents in the know, but still they had 0% success rate? even though they know fish and they took the right decisions and mainly, they did not waste any time?

Being in the industry for over 12 years, packing and unpacking fish, getting shipments that got lost in other continents, I find it somehow hard to believe.

 

[humaguy]

Rare Fish Pirates of the Eastern Pacific?


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By jml - Posted on 19 August 2011


Well-known marine fish collector Steve Robinson has pleaded guilty to illegally bringing 52 Clipperton Angelfishes into the United States and now faces up to a year in prison and up to a $100,000 fine.

The Clipperton Angelfish, Holacanthus limbaughi, is endemic to the tiny atoll, 1,250 km (775 mi) southwest of Acapulco, Mexico, and is on the IUCN Red List as a "Near-Threatened Species."

Robinson says the species is abundant there, and that he is firm supporter of sustainable collection. He operates Cortez Marine, a marine livestock wholesaler based in Hayward, California. Robinson has a fondness for rare, beautiful angelfishes and is a source of the much-sought-after Clarion Angelfish, Holacanthus clarionensis, Passer Angelfish, Holacanthus passer, and others.

If Robinson is a pirate, he is a buccaneer with some solid environmental credentials. In fact, he is credited by many as being among the first to alert the marine aquarium hobby, at one of the first MACNA Conferences, to the use of cyanide in collecting marine fishes in the Phillipines.

Robinson also a pioneer of net collection techniques and an advocate of teaching native fishers to abandon cyanide and take up the much safer and sustainable use of nets.

That said, he is in serious trouble now. The Department of Justice for Northern California released this information about the case on August 18, 2011:

"Pleading guilty to one count of violating the Lacey Act, Steven Robinson admitted yesterday that he illegally imported 52 Clipperton Angelfish, U.S. Attorney Melinda Haag announced.

"Robinson, 58, a tropical fish dealer from Hayward, Calif., pleaded guilty in front of the Honorable Nathaniel Cousins to a Class A misdemeanor for his role in unlawfully collecting the rare and unique species of fish and then importing the fish into the United States for commercial purposes under a false declaration.

"In pleading guilty, Robinson admitted that in late April 2009, he took a four-day voyage to the Clipperton atoll for the purposes of finding and collecting Clipperton Angelfish without a permit. Robinson further admitted that on May 4, 2009, through his company, Cortez Marine International, he imported 52 Clipperton Angelfish but labeled the fish as a different and more common species of angelfish known as Holacanthus passer or "Blue passer," which are found in Mexican waters where Robinson was permitted to fish.

"Robinson further admitted that once the fish were brought into the United States, he deceived federal wildlife authorities for several days by continuing to claim the fish were Blue passer when he knew the fish were Clipperton Angelfish.

"The Clipperton Angelfish (Holacanthus limbaughi) is a rare species of fish found only in the waters of Clipperton Island, an uninhabited atoll under French authority. Fishing for the Clipperton Angelfish in the Clipperton atoll requires permission from the French government. Because the fish is so rare, each live fish can command several thousand dollars in the U.S. markets and up to $10,000 in the Asian markets.


"The sentencing of Robinson is scheduled for Nov. 30, 2011, before Judge Cousins in San Francisco. The maximum statutory penalty is one year in prison, a fine of $100,000, and one year of supervised release. However, any sentence following conviction would be imposed by the court after consideration of the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines and the federal statute governing the imposition of a sentence, 18 U.S.C. § 3553.

"Stacey Geis is the Assistant U.S. Attorney who is prosecuting the case with the assistance of Rania Ghawi. The prosecution is the result of a one-year investigation by the United States Fish & Wildlife Service. The sentencing of Robinson is scheduled for Nov. 30, 2011, before Judge Cousins in San Francisco. The maximum statutory penalty is one year in prison, a fine of $100,000, and one year of supervised release. However, any sentence following conviction would be imposed by the court after consideration of the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines and the federal statute governing the imposition of a sentence, 18 U.S.C. § 3553.

"Stacey Geis is the Assistant U.S. Attorney who is prosecuting the case with the assistance of Rania Ghawi. The prosecution is the result of a one-year investigation by the United States Fish & Wildlife Service."

 

[humaguy]

Will look through my notes for the other articles that outline what happened to the fish..but you can google it....should be there somewhere...

 

[jazzman7838]

I said from the start, the fish are there cause of Steve, of course he is the one to blame, he tried to smuggle fish.
I believe that if he would have declare them as they are, he would not have problem, at least not in the first shipment, but that's a speculation.

In any case, the fish were seized by USFWL, that's a fact.

So you wanna tell me that these great agents did their very best to save 52 fish , they were agents in the know, but still they had 0% success rate? even though they know fish and they took the right decisions and mainly, they did not waste any time?

Being in the industry for over 12 years, packing and unpacking fish, getting shipments that got lost in other continents, I find it somehow hard to believe.

That is exactly what I'm telling you. You can choose to believe it, or not.

I have no first hand knowledge of what transpired with these fish before they arrived in the US. We can make some educated guesses about what they experienced based on the necropsies that were performed on each and every fish. Massive bacterial infections that led to several organ systems being covered in abcesses are what were found. The organs of the fish just start to shut down and death follows soon after. Not only fresh abcesses, but healed over ones as well that indicated the fish were in some nasty conditions for a long time. It's not something the vet or pathology lab had seen in fish before. It's not something I would expect to see in fish that were handled well. We have no idea how many Clippertons Steve caught at the island, how many made it back to Mexico, and how many died in transit.

I have *heard* (speculation/hearsay alert) that the boat went to Clipperton and then stopped in the Revillagigedos on the way back to get Clarions. And also that that batch of Clarions came in with the seized Clipperton shipment, but the Clarions had legit paperwork and were allowed through. Again, from what I have heard, nearly all of these fish perished as well.

 

[jazzman7838]

Rare Fish Pirates of the Eastern Pacific?

Yup. Doesn't really say anything about the fate of the fish. And it was written before the sentencing was passed down, he got a fairly lenient sentence/fine.

 

[copps]

Tell you what, PM copps and he can PM me. Or he can post here. He'll tell you that what I'm saying is the truth and not speculation.

Yup... Jazzman speaks the first hand truth fellas... I'd stake my reputation on it.

Steve is an amazing guy... there are so few people in this world that share the passion we do... a great guy to have a beer with and an insane wealth of knowledge on the Eastern Pacific... the kind of knowledge you can only get from decades of diving the same area... there are people like him around the world that I've met and get so much amazing information on that no one else could provide... but like many others Steve has made some bad decisions... including this one with the clippertons...

Years ago I spoke at an event in Long Beach, CA and visited the aquarium there... I met with the aquarists and let them know that they indeed had the ONLY clipperton left in the world in captivity... if that tiny atoll got nuked that would be the only one left... like the story of "Lonesome George" when I studied at the Charles Darwin Foundation in the Galapagos Islands... The specimen from Long Beach was collected with proper permits along with others years before Steve collected at Clipperton... by a commercial dive boat... perhaps someone on the West Coast knows if this specimen is still alive...

Sorry I've been out of the loop guys... I haven't gotten any new livestock in a while... but for good reason... I have a 1300 gallon fiberglass sps display that was just put in my basement! :xlbirthday:

Copps

 

[jnc914]

Tell you what, PM copps and he can PM me. Or he can post here. He'll tell you that what I'm saying is the truth and not speculation.

:debi:

What I have gathered from your previous posts is that 1.- the Clipperton Angels were collected by Steve illegally and passed on as Passer Angels 2.- the fish were then seized by USFWS and Steve continued to lie and say the fish are "Blue Passers", 3.-some were either DOA and others were in such bad shape due to improper collecting practices they were doomed to die either way. 4.- The fish did not sit for 3 days and the USFWS did not allow the surviving fish to perish while they finished their investigation.

Now, this is where your information becomes vague, because for whatever reason you are now deciding to not provide any additional information unless asked for specifically, and we should now PM Copps to confirm what you say has been true. So I will ask specifically if you are aware if the surviving fish were sent to public aquariums like the Steinhart or else where? Did they die at the public aquariums they were sent to? Do you work for one of the public aquariums and are you the one that directly found the internal injuries to these fish? Are any of these fish STILL ALIVE?

 

[jnc914]

So Copps, based on your post. There is only one Clipperton in captivity. So all the other ones illegally caught had perished? That has been the question all along, and Jazzman danced around answering the whole time...

 

[copps]

Yes... if the one at Aquarium of the Pacific is still alive...

He didn't dance around answering it... her made it pretty clear...

There is so much rampant misinformation and speculation about this case it is ridiculous. None of the 52 were destroyed. All of them died within about 72 hours of landing due to very poor holding and shipping conditions. The only person responsible for killing all those fish was the guy that went and poached them from Clipperton and then tried to smuggle them into the US: Steve Robinson.

Yes, they died at a public aquarium, but they were as good as dead before they even landed in the US. They were handled/shipped poorly by Steve and associates and their internal organs showed obvious evidence of it. Most of us in the trade have all opened a shipment where, due to delays in transit or poor handling, nothing can be done to save any of the fish and this was another good example of it.

 

[jnc914]

There has been confusion between what Jazzman has reported and what others on the board and on the internet had previously reported. There was also questions about who Jazzman actually is and how he knew definitively that the fish were all dead.

My head hurts now

 

[jazzman7838]

:debi:

What I have gathered from your previous posts is that 1.- the Clipperton Angels were collected by Steve illegally and passed on as Passer Angels 2.- the fish were then seized by USFWS and Steve continued to lie and say the fish are "Blue Passers", 3.-some were either DOA and others were in such bad shape due to improper collecting practices they were doomed to die either way. 4.- The fish did not sit for 3 days and the USFWS did not allow the surviving fish to perish while they finished their investigation.

Correct. #1-2 are part of the public record.

Now, this is where your information becomes vague, because for whatever reason you are now deciding to not provide any additional information unless asked for specifically, and we should now PM Copps to confirm what you say has been true. So I will ask specifically if you are aware if the surviving fish were sent to public aquariums like the Steinhart or else where? Did they die at the public aquariums they were sent to? Do you work for one of the public aquariums and are you the one that directly found the internal injuries to these fish?

What is this, a police interrogation? I plan on keeping myself anonymous. It's not really any of your business or relevant to the subject at hand.

Are any of these fish STILL ALIVE? That has been the question pretty much all along, and you have yet to definitely answer it.

My first post in the thread:
"All of them died within about 72 hours of landing due to very poor holding and shipping conditions."

 

[jnc914]

What is this, a police interrogation? I plan on keeping myself anonymous. It's not really any of your business or relevant to the subject at hand.


:lolspin:

I do interrogate perps for a living, sometimes it is hard to shut off. I also have a low tolderance for BS. I mentioned in the previous post you could PM if you wanted to remain anonymous. I can assure you I wouldn't report you to the USFWS because of information you have provided on a 4 year old case that has since been resolved. You have continually chided others in the thread for their rampant speculations, and then expected us to just take you at your word without any credentials or actual proof. I apologize if you were offended.

 

[Allmost]

There has been confusion between what Jazzman has reported and what others on the board and on the internet had previously reported. There was also questions about who Jazzman actually is and how he knew definitively that the fish were all dead.

My head hurts now

or most on here just didnt want to believe someone without a flashy name or ..., before researching who they are and ...

it happens about 7000 times a day on here

gotta keep an open mind.