Common Misconceptions In the Hobby

With permission of Nalbar I have replicated three posts from the thread listed above. The misconception around using a piece of raw food to test if your tank has cycled is discussed and IMO deserves space on this awesome thread


Originally posted by tbittner

You could also throw in a grocery store shrimp and let that rot for a few days and see what happens to your water parameters. If only your nitrAtes go up, you know the bacteria is still alive and well.


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It is completely beyond me why this idea still persists when we have advanced so far in the hobby, let alone this thread.

There is no useful purpose to doing this. If he kept his rock in salt water, with a heater (this is not necessary depending on where he lives), and even a little circulation, he has live rock.

There is NO upside to throwing garbage in your tank. All you are doing is putting a phosphate bomb in there. As far as 'kick starting' dead base rock with a dead shrimp (or a damsel!!), one tiny piece of live rock rubble or a tiny snail would do the same thing.

Once again I will post this article, Myth 15;

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-01/eb/index.php


nalbar
 
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sometimes it is recommended that when a reefer is not sure their tank has cycled to the point where they begin adding a bigger bioload----due to never having any measureable nitrates or ammonia)---to add a piece of raw shrimp to the tank for 12 hrs only. If there is no visible spike in ammonia then the tank can be considered ready to sloooowly add critters to it

On of the other alternatives offered is to add drops of ammonia and look for spikes
IMO would prefer the first method over the second of dosing raw ammonia in my tank

I know I have read and posted this answer many times with correction--so please let me know if you have problems with it
 
I have huge problems with it capn. There is no benefit to encouraging a 'spike'. Your rock is either cured/live, or it is not. If it is live rock, it has all the necessary bacteria to perform its function.

You say;
'If there is no visible spike in ammonia then the tank can be considered ready to sloooowly add critters to it'.

But if EVERYTHING reads 0 BEFORE the shrimp then you can also 'sloooowly add critters'. It is already IN equilibrium, no need to throw it off equilibrium to see if it is in equilibrium.

In the meantime that shrimp has released phosphate into the tank.


If a person has added LIVE rock to a tank and never got a measure of ammonia it means....

he has good rock! It's almost by definition. No need to 'test' it. Your tank, right this second, is releasing ammonia, as is mine. It is just being converted at a fast enough speed that you get no reading. If you get a sudden spike it means you have overwhelmed the population of converting bacteria. This would create a 'wave' in your system, as the bacteria attempts to catch up. These waves are what we try to avoid. No need to prompt one. Death follows these waves, leaving residual phosphate in its wake.

::SIGH:: I am struggling to put it in words.

There is no benefit to purposely adding something to our tanks that we then spent so much time and money to remove.

That is why I like that link so much. It explains the 'waves' that are what a cycle is. And how those bacteria then die off, creating ANOTHER 'wave', only smaller. And how there are only as much bacteria to convert material at that moment.



nalbar
 
This is the second misconception or controversy that was started on another thread but IMO should have a place on this thread where it can read by more interested reefers and commented on
It was alot of cut an pasting and I tried to get the jist of what everyone was saying and more importantly who said it


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Originally posted by Paul B
After reading most of it, I don't really know exactly what this thread is about. It started about live rock verses dead rock or base rock. That is common sence. Live rock is much more expensive because it had to be shipped wet or at least damp. Base rock is everything else.

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Downhillbiker

So you dont agree that live rock that has now died has different cycling and treatment properties than a regular dry base rock, that has never had life in it?

The purpose of this forum was to clear up the terminology of the rock types and see what others thought about my opinion...that base rock is very different from dead rock.

If you have read the forum you would see that numerous people have stated for several reasons that there is a difference, and that it should be addressed so that people dont incorrectly inform someone asking a question, causing major tank problems.

Still unclear? I tried to explain the purpose, but it is often difficult to do that through this keyboard. It isn't hooked to my brain yet
 
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quote:
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"So you dont agree that live rock that has now died has different cycling and treatment properties than a regular dry base rock, that has never had life in it?"
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This may be confusing but all of the material that we call "rock" was at one time alive. It all was formed by sea creatures. The entire Caribbean and all non volcanic tropical locations are above water from the activities of marine creatures. Even the sand was made mostly by parrotfish.
"Rock" or reef rock is porous due to the original inhabitants. This porosity lends itself to the colinization of bacteria.
Rock, after it is collected loses biodiversity in an aquarium and continousely loses it as long as it is captive. It does however gain new creatures from the new envirnment. After a couple of years just about all of the marine creatures previousely present in the rock will be gone. Dead rock in time will have the exact same diversity as live rock in an aquarium. Those creatures have life spans, many of them very short lifespans. Some that depend on seasons or phases of the moon. This is all missing in our tanks so in my opinion anyway, it makes no difference what type of rock you add. My rock as I said was added over 30 years ago as dead rock. As I look at it closely, it is full of worms, algae, copepods brittlestars etc but I am quite sure none of it is there from the original collection. I myself have added material from the sea often to try to keep a modicum of diversity.
I don't know if this fits in a thread about rock but it is what it is.
Paul
 
downhillbiker:

I totally agree. that is good reading about the constant cycle of live rock in the aquarium. i think that you are reading into this more than i originally intended. which is ok, because i love to learn.

originally i just had concern about the way i was told to treat the rock when i added it to my aquarium. i was told it was just plain base rock and to stick it right in. i didnt listen to that advise, good thing, because it went through a major cycle.

i am mostly trying to change people's perspective, or at least expose them to mine, that patience is key, and that the term "base rock" is used loosely and can mean a whole variety of things...so be careful and fully understand what "kind" of base rock you have.
 
paul B

One more "rock" thing I would like to add to a rock thread just because everytime I mention it, people don't know what to think. (I like that)
We use rock weather dry, live or what we are calling base because it is natural, it looks nice and it harbors bacteria to process wastes. I have also used bricks as live rock. Of course not in my main display but in a breeding tank or when I had a wet dry. It is basically clay and it's porous. I guess we could call that dead rock, except for the bricks I collect underwater which is full of life.
OK don't go out and throw bricks in your tank or tell people that I use bricks. I just mention it to show that any non toxic material can be used as "base rock" and if it is porous, it's better.
I would boil it first though.
And yes I know it could have all sorts of things in it like insecticides but so can dry dead rock. If you ever saw how they collect this stuff and store it, you may be amazed.
OK never mind, forget about bricks, go back to what you were doing.
 
sirreal63
I guess to me this is senseless. Rock is either live or dead. I don't see a shade of grey here. Base rock simply implies less attractive pcs. used for the building blocks. Base rock can be live or dead. There is no such thing as dead live rock, it is just dead rock, not zombie rock. Live rock is either cured or uncured...I never thought this would cause such confusion.
 
Originally posted by sirreal63
I guess to me this is senseless. Rock is either live or dead. I don't see a shade of grey here. Base rock simply implies less attractive pcs. used for the building blocks. Base rock can be live or dead. There is no such thing as dead live rock, it is just dead rock, not zombie rock. Live rock is either cured or uncured...I never thought this would cause such confusion.
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zombie rock-- a guy in the LFS tried to sell me some once--said it became more active with the moon lights

IMO you are still focusing on terms---not concepts. The density and the porosity of the rock are concepts that are much easier to understand and there is little grey area.
You need a very porous rock to support bacterial life in the core--the anerobic bacteria, the aerobic bacteria can live around the outside of any rock
That's why Paul said he could use bricks


__________________
 
sirreal63

Capn my Capn...the real focus is the state of life when added to the tank. Certainly any rock has the potential to harbor life. You want to start your tank with at least some live rock and you won't find any with an Acme Brick logo stamped on it. (I do think it is great Paul has bricks in his tank)

Paul's point was any rock has that potential to have life on it. What we want when starting a tank is a porous rock that will harbor that anaerobic life inside, the more porous the better. Rock is already marketed to some degree by porosity. Hence TBS rock vs. Marshall.

The main differences we should focus on is dead vs. live. You can call it anything you want but in the end that is what matters. To the OP you should clean any items you put in your tank whether you call it dead-live or base or Acme Bricks unless like Paul you pulled them from the ocean. It simply boils down to whether you put dead rock or live rock in your tank and whether it was all or part base rock or show pcs. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. :-)
 
WHAT ABOUT THE ROCK THAT HAS DEAD STUFF IN IT? where does that go? just regular old base rock, I see. So throw it in your tank or sump and let it F>>> up your system like it would have done to mine.
dhb

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sirreal:
All rock has the potential for dead stuff in it. Anything you add to your tank needs to be clean. If you are adding rock it needs to be cured as it will have to cycle. Tuffa can cause a cycle as well. You are concerned about the dead bacteria in the rock...don't be as concerned about that as the stuff on the outside of the rock, that is what will cause a cycle.
 
quote:
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Originally posted by m2434
I like detrazgw descrption, but in the end vendors will market rock how they see fit. I think base rock is often considered any rock used as a base to a reef structure and not as a display piece. Some vendors "live base rock" ls a good example. This is LR that is not "nice" enough to be seen

I will not say what is correct; who is the keeper of reef terminology?
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Robert

I think so too. I own an LFS and this is how its typically been described to me by my suppliers. Base rocks doesn't always have to be "dead" or "sterile"...it can be "live" as well. To me, the biggest distinction between "live" and "base" rocks are purely based on esthetic value. That's my $.02.

Happy reefing!

dhb

I think that is the case most of the time. Thats the problem. People will buy your base rock and not know what they are getting. Many people may put it in their tank directly and figure that base rock doesn't cycle...and then have a major cycle as i did.

I think there is a good point brought up in the forum, we dont need to change the name of the rock, just how people treat the rock. If we just practice patience, then the rock will never foul our tanks and kill off livestock.
 
Originally posted by seapug
what's a rock?
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downhillbiker

A rock is a group of minerals, or a single mineral that is formed into a mass.

Rocks can be in 1 of 3 classifications that form a loop.

Igneous rocks are formed my means of heat(magma). This can be formed intrusively(inside of earth) such as a batholith(granite that was an underground magma chamber that solidified and then was uplifted and eroded to expose. Or these rocks can be extrusive(above ground) such as welded tuff, which is ash that was sent through the air and welded and compacted when landing.

Metamorphic rocks can form in several ways, but need heat and pressure to form. Igneous magma can come up through layers of parent rock and form dykes and sills for example. This is forms a protrusion of igneous rock that has metamorphic rock on both sides of the protrusion(where parent rock was heated and pressurized).

Sedimentary Rocks are formed from the above two types being eroded. These are the rocks that we are most familiar with. They are often limestones, sandstones, siltstones, and other calcium carbonate based rocks. Sedimentary rocks are formed form erosion, transport, and deposition.

The sedimentary rock in question here is formed from precipitation from a solution. CaCO3. The rock is formed from our beloved corals and other CaCO3 dependent creatures like diatoms, cocoliths, and dinoflagellates.

>>>>The rock is built over a very large time span, but as far as bacteria and "life" occupying it, that is very short. Yes these rocks were most likely built by critters, but it is the death of the current occupants that we need to be worried about.

>>>>Hope that cleared up your confusion about rocks. LOL.
 
Paul B

quote:
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WHAT ABOUT THE ROCK THAT HAS DEAD STUFF IN IT? where does that go?
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Any rock has the potential to have dead stuff in it. That is usually worms. You can tell right away if it has dead stuff in it, it stinks like hell. If it doesen't stink it is probably fine as long as it was in a tank. You may get a cycle anyway depending on how large the rock is and how much water you have.
To answer your question as to where does the dead stuff go, it goes where all dead stuff goes. Bacteria eat it and eventually it disappears. Or of course you can bleach it and the dead stuff will oxidize and disappear.


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What we want when starting a tank is a porous rock that will harbor that anaerobic life inside, the more porous the better.
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This is true up to a point. If it is too porous, it may be great for aerobic bacteria but useless for anerobic or nitrate converting bacteria like tufa rock.
 
quote:
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Originally posted by downhillbiker

A rock that has been in someone's garage for 1 year doesn't contain life, but rather death, and still has cycling because of that. Several people stated this and have experience that matches mine.


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OK, can you exaplain what you mean?
I have been cooking LR for almost a year now in my garden shed, running lots of powerheads and temperature kept at 26C for the entire time.

Last week I decided to do a 100% WC -- moved it to another pre-heated dustbin (swapped around my mixing bins you see -- and inspected the LR.

All the bubble algae was completely gone (as you would expect after a year in darkness) and the LR is very clean and white looking -- some coraline still hanging on amazingly.

So is my LR alive or dead? It has never been out of water for longer than 5 minutes, and it was from my old tank which I no longer have. I had a disaster after my months holiday in France. The auto-top off went nuts and I almost lost all my livestock. Almost but not quite.

So is it alive or dead? Surely alive? Should I start dosing it now with some vodka? Do I need to? Should I seed it with a piece of LR from my main tank?

Very confused....

Conor - subscribing in anticipation of your answer lads.
 
seapug
If the rock has been maintained in saltwater at the proper temp, salinity and with some circulation it is perfectly healthy and very much still "living."

I think the "rock in the garage" comment is referring to once live rock that was removed from the tank and been sitting dry for an extended period.
 
tbitner
Sounds like your rock is still very much alive, Conor. What do your water tests show? As far as ammonia, nitrItes, and nitrAtes?

You could also throw in a grocery store shrimp and let that rot for a few days and see what happens to your water parameters. If only your nitrAtes go up, you know the bacteria is still alive and well.

No sense in doing all of that though unless you want to put it into an active system.
 
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