Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[LeeJ]

I wanted to hop on and say Hi. I've just managed to forage through all of the posts. It's an amazing build and you have an amazing group of people helping out. It interests me greatly, thank you for opening the experience up to the rest of us.

I am curious of your pump issue. I've not been able to quite figure out your water flow from the pics of the tank that I've seen. Will water be entering the tank through the piping that overhangs the tank as well as the piping that is drilled up through the bottom? Is all of the water heading to the sump going through overflows? What kind of flow did you experience (and from where) when you did the testing?

I'm really curious about it, it'd be fun to be there and troubleshoot it. I'd end up being a reefer that spent more time with the mechanics of the tank than the fish/corals.

Anyway, thanks for sharing, can't wait to see it up and going.

Lee

 

[nineball]

Hello Peter,

I just have to take a second to commend you on your poise and patience through this whole journey...

To think that a crack in a sump and a "faulty" external pump could result in an addition to the tank room and additional further steps implemented for troubleshooting is truly impressive!

You really teach all of us a valuable lesson in regards to patience and for that I thank you.

Patrick

Thanks Patrick, although still somewhat limited, I'm still trying to learn from my experience. The real benefit of this community is that I will always have a peanut gallery to remind me of the occasional miss.........That has a side benefit of keeping me on my toes, so to speak. :fun4:

Peter

 

[nineball]

I'm sure this has already been talked about, but I can't seem to find the information amoung all of the pages. Peter, can you tell me how you are producing all of your RO water.

Thanks!

I have two separate units Goodwin, each capable of producing 100 gal per day. I have taken advantage of some information passed along to me by a member of this community and installed a regulator that gives me 70+ degrees F feed from the water source which should keep the production levels at their peak. The two units will allow one to fail or require maintenance and I will always have the capacity with the other to meet top off requirements for both the display tank, fish room and salt water preparation (albeit on a longer shedule with only one device operating). I seriously considered a commercial unit but I decided that its easier to get a replacement for either unit than fix or maintain the commercial unit.

The plumbing infrastructure is extremely well done and simplifies the deployment of both pure and saltwater to the environments that need it.

Does that answer your question?

Peter

 

[nineball]

What's really funny is that Peter still has no idea that the need for the new hangar complex or the carrier fleet has already begun.

Dave.M

Hanger complex??? HANGER COMPLEX??? Nobody said anything about Hanger Complex, not even Mr. Wilson. I've got a spare one but its not on the aquarium to do list. I know, I know, now your going to tell me that I need a redundant structure.

I'm sticking to Ladder Tests thank you very much. I just need a candidate................

Peter

 

[nineball]

I wanted to hop on and say Hi. I've just managed to forage through all of the posts. It's an amazing build and you have an amazing group of people helping out. It interests me greatly, thank you for opening the experience up to the rest of us.

I am curious of your pump issue. I've not been able to quite figure out your water flow from the pics of the tank that I've seen. Will water be entering the tank through the piping that overhangs the tank as well as the piping that is drilled up through the bottom? Is all of the water heading to the sump going through overflows? What kind of flow did you experience (and from where) when you did the testing?

I'm really curious about it, it'd be fun to be there and troubleshoot it. I'd end up being a reefer that spent more time with the mechanics of the tank than the fish/corals.

Anyway, thanks for sharing, can't wait to see it up and going.

Lee

Lee, Youy have hit on a subject that has been discussed at great length in the thread and the reality is that we were very uncomfortable with the preliminary indications for performance. I have very high expectations for water movement in the display tank and I was not prepared to compromise those expectations because we failed to plan well enough. My ego is not going to prevent me from admitting that the concerns from this community were fair and legitimate. So I have gone back to the basics and I can tell you that the flow design and architecture is currently to be completely redone until I can see and smell Niagara Falls ( no, the salty version). I'm not prepared yet to get into the details but I can tell you that complete with graphics our team has been very very busy preparing for .......................


Coral Tank From Canada (1350 Gal Display Tank) REDUX!!!


Narrative and Pictures to follow........(soon or relatively soon).

By the way the answer to your question is yes water was to come from the closed loops in the bottom and filtered water from the top. Again there are significant changes and inprovements to our original design so the best information about design should wait a tiny bit till the documentation can be posted here. Thanks for your patience.


Peter

 

[Aquarist007]

I am not sure if Peter has been doing this or not, but I believe Mr. Wilson suggested using Ammonia to cycle the rock. Adding ammonia on a daily basis should allow you to build up a good bacteria population in the rock. Obviously care should be taken to add a proper amount so that creatures that are present won't be harmed.

I have a slight problem with using ammonia to help cycle the live rock. I do not condone the use of fish for curing live rock. I am refering to using fish after the rock has been cured and in this case while it is waiting to be added to the tank.
A fish or two in with the live rock will keep the bacteria at a constant elevated level.
Using ammonia does not give a constant stimulus to the bacteria in that the concentration can vary, the level of dissipation can very and it is very difficult to estimate real life bioloads to the amount of ammonia you add.
Now that said, someone with the knowledge and skill of Mr. Wilson could probably finesse the use of it easily:dance::thumbsup:

 

[mr.wilson]

The benefit of using ammonia to feed nitrifying bacteria is that you can monitor exactly how much you are dosing and how much is being consumed/converted. An artificial bioload of any size can be created without stressing fish or causing mortality. It's more humane for the "canary fish" as we as the fish that are to follow because the stress & ich stage is carried out with chemicals, not live fish. I'm not saying adding a few fish is a bad practice, it's just not a "best practice".

We can chemically simulate & stimulate the development of denitrifying bacteria through the addition of sodium nitrate. This turns the tanks biological clock 3-6 months ahead. Remember, denitrifying bacteria cannot develop until they have a viable food source. If you are using fish to feed the nitrogen cycle it takes a month to get an ammonia spike, another month or two for a nitrite spike and a couple more for the long awaited and feared nitrate spike. Of the three nitrogenous chemicals, the nitrate spike is the most benign but it signals the beginnng of a long term battle with excess nutrients. With each spike the fis & corals are stressed as well as the aquarist who realizes they are pushing too hard and sticking too quickly.

Chemical dosing is an exact science. It will take you where you want to go faster and safer. Say yes to drugs

 

[mr.wilson]

The benefit of using ammonia to feed nitrifying bacteria is that you can monitor exactly how much you are dosing and how much is being consumed/converted. An artificial bioload of any size can be created without stressing fish or causing mortality. It's more humane for the "canary fish" as we as the fish that are to follow because the stress & ich stage is carried out with chemicals, not live fish. I'm not saying adding a few fish is a bad practice, it's just not a "best practice".

We can chemically simulate & stimulate the development of denitrifying bacteria through the addition of sodium nitrate. This turns the tanks biological clock 3-6 months ahead. Remember, denitrifying bacteria cannot develop until they have a viable food source. If you are using fish to feed the nitrogen cycle it takes a month to get an ammonia spike, another month or two for a nitrite spike and a couple more for the long awaited and feared nitrate spike. Of the three nitrogenous chemicals, the nitrate spike is the most benign but it signals the beginnng of a long term battle with excess nutrients. With each spike the fis & corals are stressed as well as the aquarist who realizes they are pushing too hard and sticking too quickly.

Chemical dosing is an exact science. It will take you where you want to go faster and safer. Say yes to drugs

 

[mr.wilson]

There is a common misconception that we are waiting for the tank or the rock to be "cycled". The nitrogen cycle is an ongoing process that is never "cycled". The bioload must be slowly built up over months and maintained.

This oversight is most common with newly acquired live rock. At first there is massive die off of macroorganisms on the rock and microorganisms within the rock. This bioload creates a demand for a large colony of nitrifying bacteria. As soon as the die off is dispatched by the growing bacteria culture, the bacterial colony starts to Shrink with the food source. Using Peter's rock as an example, there is no phospate or nitrogen cycle occuring because there is no nutrient import (feeding). The added benefit of starting and building the nitrogen cycle with chemicals is you can do so without starting the dreaded phosphate cycle. New marine tanks go through a diatom (brown) algae stage, then after a few weeks, a green & or red slime algae (Cyanobacteria) stage. When you reach the green algae stage that is your visual cue that you can start slowly stocking the tank. In other words the ammonia spike has passed providing you don't increase the bioload too quickly. Of course test kits will confirm this but natures cue is easier to track.

Another bad habit aquarists have is referring to red slime algae as "cyano", or "Cyanobacteria" as if it is the only variety. All blue/green algae is classified as Cyanobacteria. Diatoms, red Cyanobacteria and dinoflagelettes are often confused with each other. It doesn't matter that much because they are all a nuisance and treated the same way.

 

[elijaher]

Would the die off be breakdown to ammonia? Does the rocks has enough die off for bacteria not to starve?

 

[Rizup]

Would the die off be breakdown to ammonia? Does the rocks has enough die off for bacteria not to starve?

Pulled from Mr. Wilson's post right above yours:

At first there is massive die off of macroorganisms on the rock and microorganisms within the rock. This bioload creates a demand for a large colony of nitrifying bacteria. As soon as the die off is dispatched by the growing bacteria culture, the bacterial colony starts to Shrink with the food source.

The die off will produce ammonia, which causes a demand for the bacteria. Once there is no more die off, there is no more food for the bacteria.

 

[LeeJ]

Lee, Youy have hit on a subject that has been discussed at great length in the thread and the reality is that we were very uncomfortable with the preliminary indications for performance. I have very high expectations for water movement in the display tank and I was not prepared to compromise those expectations because we failed to plan well enough. My ego is not going to prevent me from admitting that the concerns from this community were fair and legitimate. So I have gone back to the basics and I can tell you that the flow design and architecture is currently to be completely redone until I can see and smell Niagara Falls ( no, the salty version). I'm not prepared yet to get into the details but I can tell you that complete with graphics our team has been very very busy preparing for .......................


Coral Tank From Canada (1350 Gal Display Tank) REDUX!!!


Narrative and Pictures to follow........(soon or relatively soon).

By the way the answer to your question is yes water was to come from the closed loops in the bottom and filtered water from the top. Again there are significant changes and inprovements to our original design so the best information about design should wait a tiny bit till the documentation can be posted here. Thanks for your patience.


Peter

Glad to see it's getting a redesign. I'll admit I was having trouble seeing how you would get substantial force with all the outlets you have in the tank, the sizing of some of your piping (especially that coming in to the bottom of the main tank) and only one pump to drive each system.

I always compared it to the pump in my pool. It had good force, but all of it was driven through an outlet about 1.25 inches across. If it had been coming out 8 outlets that size, there wouldn't have been much force, but overall the flow would've actually been better. That was with a decent sized pool pump, probably equivalent to what you have.

I am curious, however, how much of this flow will you require from the pump system and how much of it will rely on powerheads and the like? I assume your open loop system only needs to supply enough flow for Robbie the Robot and related systems and the closed loop is for circulation. If that's true, the force/flow of the open loop is mostly determined by Robbies requirements, correct?

I've never set up a reef tank, so I really only have a passing understanding of the systems, but they interest me greatly. Between your setup and Chings, my knowledge of reef aquariums has grown steadily, but it's an amazingly vast subject. Just reading a few of Wilson's posts makes me understand how little I really know. :jester:

And yes, for some warped reason, I enjoy fluid dynamics.

 

[nineball]

There is a common misconception that we are waiting for the tank or the rock to be "cycled". The nitrogen cycle is an ongoing process that is never "cycled". The bioload must be slowly built up over months and maintained.

This oversight is most common with newly acquired live rock. At first there is massive die off of macroorganisms on the rock and microorganisms within the rock. This bioload creates a demand for a large colony of nitrifying bacteria. As soon as the die off is dispatched by the growing bacteria culture, the bacterial colony starts to Shrink with the food source. Using Peter's rock as an example, there is no phospate or nitrogen cycle occuring because there is no nutrient import (feeding). The added benefit of starting and building the nitrogen cycle with chemicals is you can do so without starting the dreaded phosphate cycle. New marine tanks go through a diatom (brown) algae stage, then after a few weeks, a green & or red slime algae (Cyanobacteria) stage. When you reach the green algae stage that is your visual cue that you can start slowly stocking the tank. In other words the ammonia spike has passed providing you don't increase the bioload too quickly. Of course test kits will confirm this but natures cue is easier to track.

Another bad habit aquarists have is referring to red slime algae as "cyano", or "Cyanobacteria" as if it is the only variety. All blue/green algae is classified as Cyanobacteria. Diatoms, red Cyanobacteria and dinoflagelettes are often confused with each other. It doesn't matter that much because they are all a nuisance and treated the same way.

So if I were going to move my live rock from the garage to saaaay outside closer to the point of entry to the tank for the eventual aqua scaping but the temp storage vats are now subject to the 'outside' climate changes.............Hypothetically speaking of course, would now be a good time to start the "life is better through chemistry" program. How would it be even remotely possible to figure out how much 'stuff' to put in? Oh and what 'stuff'?

hypothetically speaking of course,

Peter

 

[mr.wilson]

Would the die off be breakdown to ammonia? Does the rocks has enough die off for bacteria not to starve?

Yes, the primary result from the die off would be an elevated level of ammonia. The most basic form of bacteria consumes the dead organisms and produces ammonia as a byproduct. Fish directly excrete ammonia, uric acid (which is converted to ammonia by bacteria), as well as amino acids (also converted to ammonia). Ammonia is at the top of the pyramid as far as toxic substances created by the biomass/bioload.

The bacterial/biological process that creates ammonia from dead organisms is called "mineralization", "nitrificatio", or "dissimilation" (in the case of converting nitrate back into nitrite or nitrogen gas). Once nitrogen is added to the system, it stays in the cycle indefinitely. Nitrification makes ammonia less toxic by converting it to nitrite, then another group of bacteria further reduce it by converting it to nitrate. Throughout this cycle it remains as nitrogen, just in different forms, thus the name nitrogen cycle.

Nitrification is the easy part. These bacteria are developed in a few months in a new sterile tank, and in days or weeks with seeded live rock. If you don't maintain a constant feed of ammonia, the nitrifying bacteria die off to a population size that can handle the demand (the amount of food available).

The last stage in the nitrogen cycle is denitrification (or dissimilation). This group of bacteria are not limited to anaerobic (low oxygen) conditions, but that is their most common environment. Denitrifying bacteria consume nitrate in place of oxygen and convert it into nitrogen gas. It's called nitrogen respiration. The bacteria "breath in" nitrate and "breath out" nitrogen gas.

When you set up a new tank you need to develop these three groups of bacteria all at once and that's where people get into trouble. I find that acquiring some macroalgae from a LFS or fellow hobbyist is the most efficient method of jump starting the filter bed. Nitrifying bacteria and denitrifying bacteria grow mostly on detritus as biofilms (biological/bacterial slime coat). The dirtier the better when it comes to adding "seeds" from another tank.

Biofilms are constantly growing layer by layer. As these layers get thick and heavy they slough off (fall off). While one grain of sand is crashing, another is flourishing in a constant cycle. This is why you don't want to over-clean or disturb a sand bed too much. The delicate biofilms are damaged and take a few days to grow back. A new tank should be left alone to offer a stable environment for nitrifying bacteria.

I hope that made sence. My laptop is out getting fixed so I'm typing on a 3" phone screen

 

[nineball]

Glad to see it's getting a redesign. I'll admit I was having trouble seeing how you would get substantial force with all the outlets you have in the tank, the sizing of some of your piping (especially that coming in to the bottom of the main tank) and only one pump to drive each system.

I always compared it to the pump in my pool. It had good force, but all of it was driven through an outlet about 1.25 inches across. If it had been coming out 8 outlets that size, there wouldn't have been much force, but overall the flow would've actually been better. That was with a decent sized pool pump, probably equivalent to what you have.

I am curious, however, how much of this flow will you require from the pump system and how much of it will rely on powerheads and the like? I assume your open loop system only needs to supply enough flow for Robbie the Robot and related systems and the closed loop is for circulation. If that's true, the force/flow of the open loop is mostly determined by Robbies requirements, correct?

I've never set up a reef tank, so I really only have a passing understanding of the systems, but they interest me greatly. Between your setup and Chings, my knowledge of reef aquariums has grown steadily, but it's an amazingly vast subject. Just reading a few of Wilson's posts makes me understand how little I really know. :jester:

And yes, for some warped reason, I enjoy fluid dynamics.

Your strength is my blind spot. I expect to be releasing reasonably explicit diagrams (possibly sometime over the weekend) of the retrofit which should move this conversation away from speculation to concrete hard impressions which I would welcome informed reaction and input.

I am quickly discovering that there is much more 'art' out there than 'science' in this arena. I can't believe that experimentation is more prevalent than following established guidelines in the fluid dynamics domain. This is another area of concentration that I hope will provide an initial foundation for some basic scientific principles to emerge to guide us to some starting gate for best practices. We might not get to the place I think we should be by now in this hobby but we just might find some dry ground to stand on for a beginning.

I suspect Lee, that you will be a welcome voice in the chorus of reaction.....:dance:

Peter

 

[K.Sweeney]

about the temp issue

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-10646290

 

[Aquarist007]

The benefit of using ammonia to feed nitrifying bacteria is that you can monitor exactly how much you are dosing and how much is being consumed/converted. An artificial bioload of any size can be created without stressing fish or causing mortality. It's more humane for the "canary fish" as we as the fish that are to follow because the stress & ich stage is carried out with chemicals, not live fish. I'm not saying adding a few fish is a bad practice, it's just not a "best practice".

I did mention it previously but I do agree with you that it is not humane to use fish to cycle the tank.
I was referring to the use of fish after the live rock had cured and the bacteria had cycled.
Peter in your case, your rock has cured fully and that is why i suggested adding a fish would help keep the bacteria at a higher level so it is better equiped when added to your tank.

At your stage I would not add ammonia, why add a chemical that could be harmful to life and hitch hikers on the live rock?

 

[Aquarist007]

We can chemically simulate & stimulate the development of denitrifying bacteria through the addition of sodium nitrate. This turns the tanks biological clock 3-6 months ahead. Remember, denitrifying bacteria cannot develop until they have a viable food source. If you are using fish to feed the nitrogen cycle it takes a month to get an ammonia spike, another month or two for a nitrite spike and a couple more for the long awaited and feared nitrate spike. Of the three nitrogenous chemicals, the nitrate spike is the most benign but it signals the beginnng of a long term battle with excess nutrients. With each spike the fis & corals are stressed as well as the aquarist who realizes they are pushing too hard and sticking too quickly.

Chemical dosing is an exact science. It will take you where you want to go faster and safer. Say yes to drugs

I have to admit that I never heard of doing that but would like to hear more about doing it

I always add live rock that has been in my system for a least 3 months when setting up a new tank and never had a problem putting fish in the tank right away.
I have also used Seachem Prime to bind the ammonia up but I am not so sure that stimulates the bacteria to grow??

Shouldn't the most feared spike be the ammonia as fish can tolerate a fairly high level of nitrates?

 

[Aquarist007]

Yes, the primary result from the die off would be an elevated level of ammonia. The most basic form of bacteria consumes the dead organisms and produces ammonia as a byproduct. Fish directly excrete ammonia, uric acid (which is converted to ammonia by bacteria), as well as amino acids (also converted to ammonia). Ammonia is at the top of the pyramid as far as toxic substances created by the biomass/bioload.

The bacterial/biological process that creates ammonia from dead organisms is called "mineralization", "nitrificatio", or "dissimilation" (in the case of converting nitrate back into nitrite or nitrogen gas). Once nitrogen is added to the system, it stays in the cycle indefinitely. Nitrification makes ammonia less toxic by converting it to nitrite, then another group of bacteria further reduce it by converting it to nitrate. Throughout this cycle it remains as nitrogen, just in different forms, thus the name nitrogen cycle.

Nitrification is the easy part. These bacteria are developed in a few months in a new sterile tank, and in days or weeks with seeded live rock. If you don't maintain a constant feed of ammonia, the nitrifying bacteria die off to a population size that can handle the demand (the amount of food available).

The last stage in the nitrogen cycle is denitrification (or dissimilation). This group of bacteria are not limited to anaerobic (low oxygen) conditions, but that is their most common environment. Denitrifying bacteria consume nitrate in place of oxygen and convert it into nitrogen gas. It's called nitrogen respiration. The bacteria "breath in" nitrate and "breath out" nitrogen gas.

When you set up a new tank you need to develop these three groups of bacteria all at once and that's where people get into trouble. I find that acquiring some macroalgae from a LFS or fellow hobbyist is the most efficient method of jump starting the filter bed. Nitrifying bacteria and denitrifying bacteria grow mostly on detritus as biofilms (biological/bacterial slime coat). The dirtier the better when it comes to adding "seeds" from another tank.

Biofilms are constantly growing layer by layer. As these layers get thick and heavy they slough off (fall off). While one grain of sand is crashing, another is flourishing in a constant cycle. This is why you don't want to over-clean or disturb a sand bed too much. The delicate biofilms are damaged and take a few days to grow back. A new tank should be left alone to offer a stable environment for nitrifying bacteria.

I hope that made sence. My laptop is out getting fixed so I'm typing on a 3" phone screen

I believe adding a cup of sand or two from and existing bed will seed a new sand bed in a matter of days

 

[swissgaurd]

I have to admit that I never heard of doing that but would like to hear more about doing it

I always add live rock that has been in my system for a least 3 months when setting up a new tank and never had a problem putting fish in the tank right away.
I have also used Seachem Prime to bind the ammonia up but I am not so sure that stimulates the bacteria to grow??

Shouldn't the most feared spike be the ammonia as fish can tolerate a fairly high level of nitrates?

i to do not believe in adding ammonia but it does work.
i prefer your method but i use a lobster,if afraid of lobster destroying the rockwork and digging around in the sand bed,i put it in the sump and feed it fresh shrimp daily, i find it works much faster than adding fish.

vic