Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

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Come on. Peter.
It should be a school of Clarion Angelfish.

I did try ChingChai. I asked for a bunch but they only had one. We did get a shipment of some very interesting fish that I think you would like but they have to stay in the Wilson bars for two months before migrating to the display tank. I will be putting up photos soon.

Peter
 
Maybe this is a good time to ask a "why now" question for mr.wilson or any other experienced reefers. I have been wondering about the timing of adding potential reef terrors to a tank such as angels and triggers. Some people get away with it, others don't have as much luck. Some blame it on the species, some blame it on individual fish.

So this is my quandary: Is it better to get your invertebrates in and well established before adding potential problem fish, or let the problem fish get established first before adding the invertebrates?

Thx,

Dave.M
 
So this is my quandary: Is it better to get your invertebrates in and well established before adding potential problem fish, or let the problem fish get established first before adding the invertebrates?

I think both choices are wrong. :rollface: But Peter seems to be like me: he can resist anything except temptation.

The benefit of adding such a fish early is that you get a feeling for what invertebrates seem to be on the menu of the fish. I feel the most important trick is keeping the fish occupied: lots of swimming space, hiding places and plenty (both in quantity and in quality) of food. Add a little bit of luck and the inevitable risks are definitely reduced. Bad news is that as the fish matures, it’s habits might change… :lmao:
 
Maybe this is a good time to ask a "why now" question for mr.wilson or any other experienced reefers. I have been wondering about the timing of adding potential reef terrors to a tank such as angels and triggers. Some people get away with it, others don't have as much luck. Some blame it on the species, some blame it on individual fish.

So this is my quandary: Is it better to get your invertebrates in and well established before adding potential problem fish, or let the problem fish get established first before adding the invertebrates?

Thx,

Dave.M

Remember folks millions of these live on the reef, and they have not wiped it out. I think with most people who tend to think a angel is fine in a 90 gallon, tend to see corals being demolished. Although in a tank like Peters there is so much room and eventually so much inverts. If he picks at one here and there, you wouldn't even notice. Plus I agree with Tamu, its better to put him in now rather then when all the coral is in. If he is problematic its much easier to remove now.
 
I think both choices are wrong. :rollface: But Peter seems to be like me: he can resist anything except temptation.

The benefit of adding such a fish early is that you get a feeling for what invertebrates seem to be on the menu of the fish. I feel the most important trick is keeping the fish occupied: lots of swimming space, hiding places and plenty (both in quantity and in quality) of food. Add a little bit of luck and the inevitable risks are definitely reduced. Bad news is that as the fish matures, it's habits might change"¦ :lmao:

I couldn't have said it better myself. Not only is it a challenge but with great reward. A Regal (Pygoplites) angel is a more reef safe option that we will track down later. The blue face is known to pick at LPS and sponge. Peter is focusing on SPS so they are off the menu for him. Favia and favites are like candy to many marginally reef safe fish and we won't miss having any.

At this point in time we can still catch him and he will adapt to foods we provide without temptation. The large tank helps keep him distracted, we have a wide variety of foods, and there will be enough coral in the tank to spread out any nibbling.

The other factor is we won't be crushed if we lose the odd coral to fish cheating on their diet, it comes with the territory.
 
0_0_84c59c510b26907a05d3c174ab7fa105_1



Peter


Congratulations Team Nineball on this milestone, you are really making history here. I must admit this thread is really as detailed as it gets regarding choosing the best practices of reefkeeping. Congrats again :beer:

BTW Incredible fish :)
 
First of all, nobody keeps sponges, so it isn't usually a concern with angelfish; however, I just got in 200 mangrove pods for the mangrove wall so I thought what he hell, let's get some sponges out of shear convenience.

We have about 8 of them in the tank and Peter informs me that the Blue Face angel has taken a liking to the peach coloured ones :) At least we know he is getting a whole food diet :) I just hope he doesn't have a craving for orange.
 
beautiful blueface....and congrats for crossing million marks....i wonder what eye candies are resting in wilson's bar...:bum:
 
I did try ChingChai. I asked for a bunch but they only had one. We did get a shipment of some very interesting fish that I think you would like but they have to stay in the Wilson bars for two months before migrating to the display tank. I will be putting up photos soon.

Peter

Wow. I am excited to know what are those fishes.
Look forward to seeing the photos of them.
 
Our missing sump and paperweight chiller are normally sore spots, but I will give you a break because you are joining in from so far away. :) Welcome!

Peter's fail-safe plan for the chiller was to have a spare on hand in case it died. My predecessor ended up purchasing the back up from another vendor so it doesn't fit anyway:(

The next calamity of errors we experienced is the ambient heat thrown from the compressor exceeds the cooling of the heat exchanger. We have a very well built Aqua-Logic 1HP unit, but it is located in the small fish room and it is not directly vented. When I gave it a test run, the room went up 13˚F and the tank dropped 1˚F in about 30 minutes. It may have gone either way if I had left it, but the MARS holding systems would have been cooked in the process and some of the equipment may have overheated. We are going to run another test today, now that we ironed out some of our venting issues. My prediction is the chiller will be moved outside in the long run.

I'm with you on the air conditioning idea. In my 23 years professionally installing marine tanks, I have never used a chiller, or had use for one. I have used them on goldfish and lobster tanks and commercial systems, but never on a tropical reef tank.

Our current issue is temperature fluctuation. We are fighting against a few variable which include, but are not limited to...

- Seasonal changes (up here in Canada you can feel them).
- Radiant floor heating in the display tank area.
- Forced air gas furnace in the display tank area.
- Air conditioning in the display tank area.
- Air conditioning in the fish/filtration room.
- Lighting changes over the tank, including periodic lights out to combat nuisance algae.
- Exhaust fan that blows hot air from above the tank into the fish room. This creates negative pressure in the tank canopy, and positive pressure in the fish room. The humidity is drawn out of the living area of the home by the fan, and pushed back into it by the same fan through positive pressure.
- We have an HRV (heat exchanger) that was set wrong for the first few months.
- New equipment and more electricity (read as "heat") being added on a regular basis.
- mr.wilson forgetting to shut the fish room door.
- Playing around with the exhaust fan and forgetting to turn it back on.

Each of these effects the other, so we need to rein it in soon. The tank is running very cool between 76-79, which is too great of a swing. In my opinion that is too low. I would aim for 80-82; Let's call it 81˚F which leaves room for an upward and downward swing, matches the natural environment, and increases coral growth rates (compared to cooler waters).

I have three 1,000 watt titanium heaters ready to go. I will probably install them soon, as we cannot reach stability with our current environmental control system. The trend will be for the tank to run too cool, not too hot, so the chiller itself is a fail-safe (once we relocate it).

Back to the chiller and heat control. I recommend a dedicated heater and chiller controller by Renco. They are reliable industrial units that are very accurate. Since both heating and cooling is governed by one "brain", you will not have your heaters and chiller/air conditioning come on at the same time or in succession (one working against the other). The chiller I inherited with the project came with a single phase Renco controller, which I will upgrade to the dual phase to control the three heaters. I looked into running the heaters with the Profilux controller, but it was cost prohibitive due to the high wattage. It was also going to add a lot of clutter with an octopus of wires.

Sometimes an all-in-one unit is simple, while other times it is too complex and you end up with all of your eggs in one basket. Aquarium controllers are good for controlling some things, while giving a second opinion by simply monitoring others. That's where your fail-safe lies. We have an automated email and text message system if the tank temperature drifts to far out of the target number. That will come on line when we get the sump that I'm not talking about :)

In general, aquarium cooling is best dealt with venting hot air up out of the top with fans or vent placement. Cold air intakes should be placed at the floor where it is cooler. Pointing a circulation fan straight down at the sump will give enough evaporative cooling for just about any application.

If your ambient room temp is too high, which may be the case in South Africa, then a chiller makes more sense, but you might as well cool the air you live in at the same time because it costs about the same, and often less.

New lighting options like LED lighting and DC pumps are assisting in the cooling game. Buy stock in titanium heaters, as we will all be using them again. Its about stability more than target temperature. If you know your tank will have a tendency to drift hotter, keep the resting temp at 82˚F so a 4˚F increase will have no ill effects. Running the tank at 76˚F will only buy you a few hours at the cost of shocking your corals with an extra 6˚F increase when it overheats.

Hi Shawn - Great post. I couldn't help but be reminded of one of my own experiences regarding the battle with thermal control. I figured I'd offer it up for your and others' consideration.

About 3 years ago I installed a 240 gallon reef aquarium for a client. 240G does not seem large but there were a number of anomalous factors to consider but the two most important for the point of this conversation are:

- He wanted all of the filtration located in the basement in a mechanical room. This resulted in a large Reeflo 8400 pressure pump (to address approx, 16 ft of vertical head); and

- The house was large enough to constitute what turned out to be a light commercial electrical system, but was unfortunately not equipped with a central surge suppression system. And to add to this point, the house was located in an exclusive neighbourhood surrounded by farms... which means that 'clean' hydro is not guaranteed by the local utility.

The latter point is only important to further enlighten the following context.

The Context:

Within the first year of this installation, I'd gone through three 1HP chillers (not to mention a few other electrical components), before putting my finger on the dirty hydro realization. Because of the configuration of this aquarium system (i.e. everything in the basement), as well as the extensive lighting system (5x 250W HQIs - 2x 96W PCs), there was a huge emphasis on cooling.

At the time I could not persuade my client to spend the additional $2K on the Aquatronica system that would have provided early warning... so all of the above combined to result in 3 terrible phone calls from my client stating that "...the tank is 95 degF; I'm thowing ice cubes into the aquarium; and all of the coral and critters are dead; we only have a few fish left alive...." In a nutshell, on three separate occasions, three large power-sucking, 1HP chillers which worked [let's say] 80% of the time to maintain 78 degF, suddenly stopped functioning, and within the course of a night, allowed the aquarium temperature to rise up to 95 def F.... this happened three times in one year.

Needless to say at this point, the I could not trust a single chiller solution, since as can be seen - it proved to be an all or nothing gamble. My client was no longer willing to invest thousands of $$$ in a project that seems to be mysteriously, and anomalously revisiting disaster.... and I was on the hunt for a better solution, as I didn't want to deal with this type of customer/client devastation any longer, with this or any other projects.

The solution:

About 12 years before this whole ordeal, I was in my second or third year completing my architectural degree, in a class, learning about cooling towers. Some of you may be aware, but here is the key point about cooling towers. They rely on the phenomenon of evaporative cooling (which I learned at that time) basically means that the phase change from liquid to gas requires heat - so what a cooling tower does is spread water over a metal lattice to thin it out, while fanning air counter-current (upwardly) through that same lattice. The water is encouraged to evaporate thereby steeling the heat from the water (left behind) to accomplish the phase change to vapour. Of course my first thought at that time was 'I can make this work on aquariums' - thinking of goldfish at that time to be honest - I wasn't into reefs at all.

(once again I apologize to those of you who already knew the details of evaporative cooling)

Nonetheless - as you can probably see, this epiphany of mine was shelved for approx. 12 years, until the point in time that I was at the end of my leash with chiller and hydro related disappointments.

I then proceeded to retrofit an existing bio-tower with an extension (taller); a couple of air channels (to direct air down to the bottom); a vented top; and two $65 [5"] computer fans (to feed air through the two channels).

When I finally got everything hooked up correctly, the temperature dropped from 95F to 74F in the winter. In the summer months when the mechanical room was naturally more humid, the evaporative capacity diminished to the extent that the temperature hovered around 78-80F. Since the system relied only on two $65 computer fans, I was no longer contending with the replacement of a $2,000 chiller after the warranty was up; and there was now [in place] a very economical solution of redundancy. The system has been in place for almost three years now, and I have never had another reef-cooking incident... thankfully! (though I did have one close call when a lightening storm tripped the GFI the fans were plugged into, but that only required a reset - this of course only qualified the dirty hydro finding)

Oh, and BTW - after designing my own sorta DIY solution I discovered that Deltec has a commercial solution that operates on the same principle of evaporative cooling... their eco-coolers.

Cautionary Notes:

- My first evaporative cooling system relied on a modified bio-tower which is okay for fish-only and even lps/soft coral reefs; a sps system would then have to contend with a now super-charged bio-tower, and the resulting production of nitrates (which is entirely controllable via carbon-dosing btw). I've addressed this issue by designing alternate ways of thinning out the water toward ease of evaporation.... i.e. find some way to spray the water through the cooling chamber as opposed to trickling it over any media - in other words, minus the substrate for the nitrifying bacteria to live; and

- most importantly... find a way to dispose of the generated humidity or you will (in most houses) begin to find mould in areas of moderate to no air circulation. This actually goes for all types of evaporative cooling including fanning your sump or display tank water surface. I actually had three computer fans blowing the surface of a large (600g) freshwater installation, and my client found mould cropping up in other areas of the basement. needless to say we put glass tops on the aquarium and the water temperature went back up to 86F (from 76 or so when the fans were in place). Once again there is a solution; and it is simply this... if you employ a proper strategy of evaporative cooling, i.e. with a reactor (not fanning surface water), you must treat your installation in a manner similar to a shower; dryer; or even a fireplace installation - send the unwanted stuff (humidity) straight outside... if you're going to invest in an aquarium in which cooling is a primary requirement; in my findings evaporative cooling is least energy intensive and more reliable. If this is something you would consider getting into, then by all means pop a 4" vent through your wall and avoid any chance of mould production inside your house.

Anyway - sorry about the long post - I just couldn't help reflecting on my own past woes when reading through Shawn's post. I figured that my eventual solution and learnings were worth sharing; and most appropriately worth saving others similar heartaches. Hope it was informative.:wave:

Regards,

Sheldon
 
Whoa.....Finally. It only took me about a week to read this entire thread. The funny part is I was reading some of the later pages before I started from the start and I keptasking myself, when does Mr. Wilson join the team?:rollface:

I just wanted to thank you Peter for documenting your build and also letting Mr. Wilson contribute his expertise. I am now in the planning stages of a upgrage from a 120g in-wall to a 300g L-shaped in-wall build thanks to you and this thread will help me tremendously with that. Now I just have to go back and take notes!

I think most on this site would consider you an idol, unfourtantly my wife considers you the opposite:lmao:
 
Whoa.....Finally. It only took me about a week to read this entire thread. The funny part is I was reading some of the later pages before I started from the start and I keptasking myself, when does Mr. Wilson join the team?:rollface:

I just wanted to thank you Peter for documenting your build and also letting Mr. Wilson contribute his expertise. I am now in the planning stages of a upgrage from a 120g in-wall to a 300g L-shaped in-wall build thanks to you and this thread will help me tremendously with that. Now I just have to go back and take notes!

I think most on this site would consider you an idol, unfourtantly my wife considers you the opposite:lmao:

Welcome to a wonderful community of enthusiasts that somehow have really understood and taken to heart that this really is a community owned and built aquarium. We thank you for taking the time to get caught up. You have joined a special group in my opinion. I agree there is a lot of value in this thread for anyone contemplating a build or rebuild as you are about to undertake. I think I am going to focus on summarizing the best practices that have been identified and surfaced during this build after I get my sump (Mr. Wilson) and skimmer into full production. We still have a ways to go on this journey but I do believe we are making some progress.

Again, welcome to the group and you can tell your wife that we also provide support services for spouses.

Peter
 
Hi Shawn - Great post. I couldn't help but be reminded of one of my own experiences regarding the battle with thermal control. I figured I'd offer it up for your and others' consideration.

About 3 years ago I installed a 240 gallon reef aquarium for a client. 240G does not seem large but there were a number of anomalous factors to consider but the two most important for the point of this conversation are:

- He wanted all of the filtration located in the basement in a mechanical room. This resulted in a large Reeflo 8400 pressure pump (to address approx, 16 ft of vertical head); and

- The house was large enough to constitute what turned out to be a light commercial electrical system, but was unfortunately not equipped with a central surge suppression system. And to add to this point, the house was located in an exclusive neighbourhood surrounded by farms... which means that 'clean' hydro is not guaranteed by the local utility.

The latter point is only important to further enlighten the following context.

The Context:

Within the first year of this installation, I'd gone through three 1HP chillers (not to mention a few other electrical components), before putting my finger on the dirty hydro realization. Because of the configuration of this aquarium system (i.e. everything in the basement), as well as the extensive lighting system (5x 250W HQIs - 2x 96W PCs), there was a huge emphasis on cooling.

At the time I could not persuade my client to spend the additional $2K on the Aquatronica system that would have provided early warning... so all of the above combined to result in 3 terrible phone calls from my client stating that "...the tank is 95 degF; I'm thowing ice cubes into the aquarium; and all of the coral and critters are dead; we only have a few fish left alive...." In a nutshell, on three separate occasions, three large power-sucking, 1HP chillers which worked [let's say] 80% of the time to maintain 78 degF, suddenly stopped functioning, and within the course of a night, allowed the aquarium temperature to rise up to 95 def F.... this happened three times in one year.

Needless to say at this point, the I could not trust a single chiller solution, since as can be seen - it proved to be an all or nothing gamble. My client was no longer willing to invest thousands of $$$ in a project that seems to be mysteriously, and anomalously revisiting disaster.... and I was on the hunt for a better solution, as I didn't want to deal with this type of customer/client devastation any longer, with this or any other projects.

The solution:

About 12 years before this whole ordeal, I was in my second or third year completing my architectural degree, in a class, learning about cooling towers. Some of you may be aware, but here is the key point about cooling towers. They rely on the phenomenon of evaporative cooling (which I learned at that time) basically means that the phase change from liquid to gas requires heat - so what a cooling tower does is spread water over a metal lattice to thin it out, while fanning air counter-current (upwardly) through that same lattice. The water is encouraged to evaporate thereby steeling the heat from the water (left behind) to accomplish the phase change to vapour. Of course my first thought at that time was 'I can make this work on aquariums' - thinking of goldfish at that time to be honest - I wasn't into reefs at all.

(once again I apologize to those of you who already knew the details of evaporative cooling)

Nonetheless - as you can probably see, this epiphany of mine was shelved for approx. 12 years, until the point in time that I was at the end of my leash with chiller and hydro related disappointments.

I then proceeded to retrofit an existing bio-tower with an extension (taller); a couple of air channels (to direct air down to the bottom); a vented top; and two $65 [5"] computer fans (to feed air through the two channels).

When I finally got everything hooked up correctly, the temperature dropped from 95F to 74F in the winter. In the summer months when the mechanical room was naturally more humid, the evaporative capacity diminished to the extent that the temperature hovered around 78-80F. Since the system relied only on two $65 computer fans, I was no longer contending with the replacement of a $2,000 chiller after the warranty was up; and there was now [in place] a very economical solution of redundancy. The system has been in place for almost three years now, and I have never had another reef-cooking incident... thankfully! (though I did have one close call when a lightening storm tripped the GFI the fans were plugged into, but that only required a reset - this of course only qualified the dirty hydro finding)

Oh, and BTW - after designing my own sorta DIY solution I discovered that Deltec has a commercial solution that operates on the same principle of evaporative cooling... their eco-coolers.

Cautionary Notes:

- My first evaporative cooling system relied on a modified bio-tower which is okay for fish-only and even lps/soft coral reefs; a sps system would then have to contend with a now super-charged bio-tower, and the resulting production of nitrates (which is entirely controllable via carbon-dosing btw). I've addressed this issue by designing alternate ways of thinning out the water toward ease of evaporation.... i.e. find some way to spray the water through the cooling chamber as opposed to trickling it over any media - in other words, minus the substrate for the nitrifying bacteria to live; and

- most importantly... find a way to dispose of the generated humidity or you will (in most houses) begin to find mould in areas of moderate to no air circulation. This actually goes for all types of evaporative cooling including fanning your sump or display tank water surface. I actually had three computer fans blowing the surface of a large (600g) freshwater installation, and my client found mould cropping up in other areas of the basement. needless to say we put glass tops on the aquarium and the water temperature went back up to 86F (from 76 or so when the fans were in place). Once again there is a solution; and it is simply this... if you employ a proper strategy of evaporative cooling, i.e. with a reactor (not fanning surface water), you must treat your installation in a manner similar to a shower; dryer; or even a fireplace installation - send the unwanted stuff (humidity) straight outside... if you're going to invest in an aquarium in which cooling is a primary requirement; in my findings evaporative cooling is least energy intensive and more reliable. If this is something you would consider getting into, then by all means pop a 4" vent through your wall and avoid any chance of mould production inside your house.

Anyway - sorry about the long post - I just couldn't help reflecting on my own past woes when reading through Shawn's post. I figured that my eventual solution and learnings were worth sharing; and most appropriately worth saving others similar heartaches. Hope it was informative.:wave:

Regards,

Sheldon

Sheldon, your extensive post is very welcome and in fact encouraged as a valuable contribution to the gestalt of this thread. Although I believe the chapter is yet to be written in this build I have to say that I am very pleased with the general environmental success we have achieved with this project. It has taken a number of contributors but I have achieved the design goal of full control over heat,humidity and noise without compromise. You can sit right in front of this tank and blindfolded you would not know there was an aquarium in the room. You can't smell it, you can't hear it and yes you can't sense it without the visual. The challenge we face with the chiller was a lack of knowledgeable skill on the part of the initial project manager who was eventually replaced by Mr. Wilson. In a sense it was a shame we did not have the right skill set present because I would have felt much more secure knowing that the temperature could be controlled in an emergency. Your example of " evaporative cooling " is in my opinion close to what I have today although (in a sense it is almost analogous to fanning the surface) The negative air pressure of the closed canopy does have an enormous impact on temp as it will not allow a heat buildup to naturally occur. Mr. Wilson and I are still having an ongoing discussion about target temperatures but I suspect we are really only 2 degrees apart. One way or another I will have a best practice defined but this one will just take time.

Peter
 
Great post Sheldon. I really like how anyone who's got something to offer chimes in with some kind of offer/observation for your project Peter. It is nice to be part of this community
 
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