Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)
- Thread starter nineball
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plyr58
New member
Have you considered using a Dialyseas system? There is a tank locally that has one along with their automated filter system, and I've been really impressed with the results. One of the benefits of the Dialyseas system on tanks with large skimmers is that it helps you to maintain that perfect salinity all the time. You don't have to worry about your skimmer running wet and your ATO system pumping fresh water into your tank and throwing off your salinity level. The Dialyseas uses a concentrated brine solution to regulate the salinity in your tank keeping it spot on all the time. It seems like you have the budget for the system. My thought is, why not?
The same company also makes an automatic filtration system that is essentially 10 micron filter material on a slowly moving spool. This system works really well to polish the water and remove particulates without leaking nitrates back into your system.
Having seen both of these in action I was really impressed and they might be something you want to think about before you move forward with your equipment.
Hope this helped.
Drew
The same company also makes an automatic filtration system that is essentially 10 micron filter material on a slowly moving spool. This system works really well to polish the water and remove particulates without leaking nitrates back into your system.
Having seen both of these in action I was really impressed and they might be something you want to think about before you move forward with your equipment.
Hope this helped.
Drew
Cooper Inc
New member
Hey Peter
I am local reefer here in Toronto, let me know if you need help. Keep up the good work, everything including the thread is great!!!! :wavehand:
I am local reefer here in Toronto, let me know if you need help. Keep up the good work, everything including the thread is great!!!! :wavehand:
nineball
Active member
I'm in the middle of some personal chores but I do want to acknowledge thats its not only ok to deal with these issues in this thread, its welcome as long as its constructive and not personal. I fully expected to have issues like this to address and in fact I can tell you that we are reviewing our loop and open strategy as a direct result of some of the issues raised here. So you all can keep that advice coming........it is greatly appreciated that so many are taking the time to provide help and advice. That's what this place is supposed to be about. We will continue to share our progress, warts and all.............
Peter & team
Reefski's
Active member
have you read any of the books our there? one i found particularly helpful for the building phase is "The Reef Aquarium" Vol III by Charles Delbeek and Julian Sprung.
on my tank like l posted above i have the closed loops coming in the bottom of the tank much like you do with two Hammerhead pumps and 2 OM 4ways.
right now neither OM is working and one pump is also off line.
a few weeks ago i turned the pumps off to do some maintenance in the tank. when i was finished i turned the pumps on but did not notice the OM's did not come back on. i looked closer when a couple areas of the tank developed Cyano. in attempting to get them going again i turned the pumps off and on a few times. then one of the pumps would not come back on.
so under the tank i went to turn off all the valves and take the pump out. guess what, one of the valves would not budge. i am afraid to apply much force to it for fear of breaking the seal at the BOTTOM of my tank...
in the next couple of weeks i am breaking my tank down and abandoning the closed loops and OM's. i will keep one of the pumps to pump to the two surges.
here are a few comments by Eric Borneman about closed loops- this was originally on a thread on Marine Depot Forums. at a thread located here http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic107347-9-1.aspx
Here's what I think, and I say this despite the fact that I know others use these things, may be successful and not have problems, and may disagree with me. I say this because I have been down that road personally or been involved with these issues with others more times than I care to think.
Closed loops and the valves and plumbing. Ditch 'em. Ditch 'em all. I did the closed loop thing because when that idea first came out, it seemed to be a good solution to getting more flow in a tank given that powerheads at the time sucked so badly for larger tanks. But, the idea of using big expensive high power draw pumps to push water through lots of toxic PVC, splitting it and having tons of pipes that get filled with all manner of growth is dumb and wasteful and overly complex and past its time. It all needs regular maintenance that is rarely if ever done because of what a PITA it is to do it. The valves everyone uses - straight valves - are horrible. They always get stuck over periods of time. I wouldn't use another straight valve in a tank if you paid me.
and powerheads use a fraction of the electricity of external pumps and are so much easier to clean. my goal is reduce the electric bill as close as possible to zero. (i have a 10Kw solar system)
when i redo my tank i will set the one remaining drain in the bottom of the tank such that i can screw a pipe into the intake pipe and make a standpipe above the water level in the tank so when i need to remove the pump i can do it even if the valve fails.
on my tank like l posted above i have the closed loops coming in the bottom of the tank much like you do with two Hammerhead pumps and 2 OM 4ways.
right now neither OM is working and one pump is also off line.
a few weeks ago i turned the pumps off to do some maintenance in the tank. when i was finished i turned the pumps on but did not notice the OM's did not come back on. i looked closer when a couple areas of the tank developed Cyano. in attempting to get them going again i turned the pumps off and on a few times. then one of the pumps would not come back on.
so under the tank i went to turn off all the valves and take the pump out. guess what, one of the valves would not budge. i am afraid to apply much force to it for fear of breaking the seal at the BOTTOM of my tank...
in the next couple of weeks i am breaking my tank down and abandoning the closed loops and OM's. i will keep one of the pumps to pump to the two surges.
here are a few comments by Eric Borneman about closed loops- this was originally on a thread on Marine Depot Forums. at a thread located here http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic107347-9-1.aspx
Here's what I think, and I say this despite the fact that I know others use these things, may be successful and not have problems, and may disagree with me. I say this because I have been down that road personally or been involved with these issues with others more times than I care to think.
Closed loops and the valves and plumbing. Ditch 'em. Ditch 'em all. I did the closed loop thing because when that idea first came out, it seemed to be a good solution to getting more flow in a tank given that powerheads at the time sucked so badly for larger tanks. But, the idea of using big expensive high power draw pumps to push water through lots of toxic PVC, splitting it and having tons of pipes that get filled with all manner of growth is dumb and wasteful and overly complex and past its time. It all needs regular maintenance that is rarely if ever done because of what a PITA it is to do it. The valves everyone uses - straight valves - are horrible. They always get stuck over periods of time. I wouldn't use another straight valve in a tank if you paid me.
and powerheads use a fraction of the electricity of external pumps and are so much easier to clean. my goal is reduce the electric bill as close as possible to zero. (i have a 10Kw solar system)
when i redo my tank i will set the one remaining drain in the bottom of the tank such that i can screw a pipe into the intake pipe and make a standpipe above the water level in the tank so when i need to remove the pump i can do it even if the valve fails.
dave.m
Active member
I am glad to hear the horror stories about closed loops as I was seriously considering this method and was unaware of all these problems (I guess that's what horror stories are for.).
Peter, I am a bit baffled in your choice to use a trickle filter. About 15 years ago people were saying that TFs are nothing but nitrate factories, and it was to get rid of them that live rock and the Berlin method were promoted. What reasoning prompted the idea to re-introduce this "outre" filtration method to your new tank?
Thx,
Dave.M
Peter, I am a bit baffled in your choice to use a trickle filter. About 15 years ago people were saying that TFs are nothing but nitrate factories, and it was to get rid of them that live rock and the Berlin method were promoted. What reasoning prompted the idea to re-introduce this "outre" filtration method to your new tank?
Thx,
Dave.M
NeverlosT
A bit fishy
Peter,
Inspiring build, your patience with keeping this peanut gallery in the loop is as impressive as the build itself. I had a few thoughts that may/may not have been tossed around:
As far as those closed loop returns go on the bottom, could you just extend the large diameter pipe upward, then cap it, tap the sides in four places and thread in smaller output pipes? That would give greater flow from each small output.
Will there be some sort of surface skimming overflow that can keep the water surface clear to promote healthy gas exchange?
Perhaps it would be possible to locate mountains of rock where those tank bottom intakes are placed so that the drains could be raised away from any sandbed, even if it meant raising them to the surface, this could lead to a cool aquascaping "style" of letting the reef actually reach the water surface in places.
Could it be possible to activate the returns on each side of the tank one at a time while leaving all drains active? This could lead to a "current" in the tank perhaps...
Anyway, you are doing an awesome job and I look forward to reading more of your progress. Keep it up! I cant wait to see what lighting solution this tank will employ.
Inspiring build, your patience with keeping this peanut gallery in the loop is as impressive as the build itself. I had a few thoughts that may/may not have been tossed around:
As far as those closed loop returns go on the bottom, could you just extend the large diameter pipe upward, then cap it, tap the sides in four places and thread in smaller output pipes? That would give greater flow from each small output.
Will there be some sort of surface skimming overflow that can keep the water surface clear to promote healthy gas exchange?
Perhaps it would be possible to locate mountains of rock where those tank bottom intakes are placed so that the drains could be raised away from any sandbed, even if it meant raising them to the surface, this could lead to a cool aquascaping "style" of letting the reef actually reach the water surface in places.
Could it be possible to activate the returns on each side of the tank one at a time while leaving all drains active? This could lead to a "current" in the tank perhaps...
Anyway, you are doing an awesome job and I look forward to reading more of your progress. Keep it up! I cant wait to see what lighting solution this tank will employ.
imarkspeed
New member
on this ride!! very nice btw
Peter,
This thread is inspiring. Love the well planned and collaborative approach. Way to use your resources!
Your detailed info and answers are allowing many to share in the build and to invest mentally in your tank. I for one, and really enjoying it. It's like receiving a lot (Not all) of the enjoyment and not having to pay for it..lol
Cant wait to see the results as they develop.......
This thread is inspiring. Love the well planned and collaborative approach. Way to use your resources!
Your detailed info and answers are allowing many to share in the build and to invest mentally in your tank. I for one, and really enjoying it. It's like receiving a lot (Not all) of the enjoyment and not having to pay for it..lol
Cant wait to see the results as they develop.......
nineball
Active member
Before I buckle down and respond to the posts above I want to make an observation that is probably obvious to most of you but is certainly novel to me. The quality and depth of some of your suggestions and coaching is incredible. All too often I feel guilty that you have taken so much time considering the issues thoroughly and passionately and there are just short answers back.
I am admittedly the slowest typist on the planet....I have seriously considered getting an assistant just to help me do this justice, but I know that until then you all just might accept my sincere thanks for all your input.
Rest assured, each and every post is read out loud to the team for consideration and kept on file to be resurrected when our knowledge finally upgrades to the point where we begin to comprehend your collective wisdom. My determination to make this your tank is unwavering because I honestly believe that the whole is truly greater than the sum of the parts.
OK, back to trying to untangle all this advice...............
Peter
PS. you know, even when the advice is contradictory it is often so well presented, it makes me consider having a second tank to the mix so that I don't have to choose!!!!!!!
I am admittedly the slowest typist on the planet....I have seriously considered getting an assistant just to help me do this justice, but I know that until then you all just might accept my sincere thanks for all your input.
Rest assured, each and every post is read out loud to the team for consideration and kept on file to be resurrected when our knowledge finally upgrades to the point where we begin to comprehend your collective wisdom. My determination to make this your tank is unwavering because I honestly believe that the whole is truly greater than the sum of the parts.
OK, back to trying to untangle all this advice...............
Peter
PS. you know, even when the advice is contradictory it is often so well presented, it makes me consider having a second tank to the mix so that I don't have to choose!!!!!!!
nineball
Active member
Markus, your english is so much better than my German that I'm embarrased that you would even feel the need to apologize. Your information is appreciated and helpful to the team. Thank you for your support and effort.
Peter
nineball
Active member
100% agree with you!! Its like you were at my house and saw my 600g. Everything you said is exactly the problems I have dealt with. I have them set up a little different but same concept. I also have dual 4" basket filters for the intake on CL and they seem to be okay, but I wish I would have put them on the back wall and not bottom of the tank as creatures, fish, coral, sand, etc can get into them and cause a failure in the OM 4-Way.
The whole idea behind the spider legs is to keep the sand bed from becomming a DSB. The legs are low profile and the locklines are all hidden in the rock work so you cant even see the spider legs in the sand (2-3"). There is aproxmatly 14 sections of lock line all together and each leg has 3-4 sections of 1/2" lock line on it depending on where the rock is at. the other holes are blocked off. I wanted to make sure there was flow in just about every little area at some point in time during the day. With the additional 12tunzes and the Barracuda for the return on dual wavyseas there should be enough flow to keep most of the detritus out of the rocks and suspended in the water to be taken out to be filtered out.
awesome detail.......looks like an awesome result for your effort. You guys are drowning me I quality alternatives. Soon I am going to need medication. Hang in we are still trying to get additional information on the performance characteristics of the current design. We will be following up with some additional questions......I think er hope, maybe, almost for sure.
Thanks for the thoroughness of your comments.
Peter
Even though I have never used a closed loop system, I hear far too many negatives about them. This design that you are going for is very similar to what I'm planning in my new house. The difference is that I will be having the tank built at the house, although I'm sure my neighbors would love the site of a crane lifting a massive underwater aquarium into my house 
Furthermore, as powerheads go...I saw an idea that I liked not too long ago that was done by Ed Reef on his new aquarium, he purchased these rocks made to hide tunze powerheads, and when I look at all of his tank shots I can never see them, they are completely hidden, yet he has incredible flow. If you can try and dig up the link to ed's tank or I'm sure someone can provide it, it is a great thread with lots of information. His tank has no visible appearance of any equipment, and is really as he titled it the shallow crest, inspired art.
Love the house by the way, can't wait to see what you do next.
-Jeff
Furthermore, as powerheads go...I saw an idea that I liked not too long ago that was done by Ed Reef on his new aquarium, he purchased these rocks made to hide tunze powerheads, and when I look at all of his tank shots I can never see them, they are completely hidden, yet he has incredible flow. If you can try and dig up the link to ed's tank or I'm sure someone can provide it, it is a great thread with lots of information. His tank has no visible appearance of any equipment, and is really as he titled it the shallow crest, inspired art.
Love the house by the way, can't wait to see what you do next.
-Jeff
nineball
Active member
I think this is one of the best comments of the entire build.
Peter, this is such an incredible undertaking and I am certain you will have a phenomenal build. However there's something personal in terms of style that every hobbyist has. Although you want to pay homage to the Masters that have inspired your love for the hobby, I can't help but think that they would like to see what you can add to the hobby as well as you are likely to be next in line for being considered a "Master" yourself.
It sounds as though you're still contemplating the third and fourth section. I know that you appreciate and enjoy all the comments, so I'll add this: pick a third style and then think of your own for the last section. Something you would like to delve into in terms of design. You have some phenomenal ideas coming up and I think everyone who is following your build would love to see an original creation
Also: that's a big skimmer.
Thank you for your kind support. Actually John and I were speculating how we might accommodate Chingchai's, canyon, bonsai and fruit stand in the tank with any kind of hope for continuity. We think there is a way to do it and even complete a new innovation depending on where you stand. It's really awesome having all 50 feet of landscape to work with. I've just begun to feel the incredible difference in look and feel if you imagine what a feature looks like from the inside corner of the'L' as opposed to the outside of that same corner 'L'.
But its almost like taking a post graduate degree in underwater architecture just to cope with the possibilities. This is going to take a great deal of patience and planning to get right.
Peter
nineball
Active member
Maybe you should contact Klaus from Royal Exklusiv to have him build some of these for you:
Pushes over 26,000gph each
Looking at Chingchai`s tank, he is using eight tunze 6305 pumps which is rated at 7,925 USgal./h each, and also several waveboxes.
For SPS and healthy fishes, at least for tangs I think there is no such thing as too much flow.
Go diving on a reef full of SPS and you`ll feel the flow they require ;-)
That thing looks like it fell off the titanic. My first inclination in the midst of this water movement challenge was to go out and buy the biggest pump I could fit in the fish room.........truth is there are a number of factors to consider to avoid coral soup in the process. We really are going back to the drawing board so I really appreciate this info to put on the table for consideration. I have seen the flow on the GBR and figured at the time that the best way to capture it was to get a sikorski and drop my house on the reef!!!!!!!
nineball
Active member
I seem to remember that factoid coming up in Chingchai's thread but I had since forgotten the source. His challenge was 2" acrylic. Thanks for the red flag Carl, it's appreciated.
Peter
nineball
Active member
Thanks Drew, you are also contributing significantly to my education......soon I'm going to be living on Tylenol!!!!!
Love the filtration system, it makes a ton of sense.
Peter
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