mr.wilson
.Registered Member
What does the winner get? Gracilaria? http://tnenvis.nic.in/Algal_gal/GRACILARIA TEXTORII.jpg
Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)
- Thread starter nineball
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Aquarist007
New member
Aquarist007
New member
Good to hear about the flow volume improvements. Here are a few points to torment you about mechanical filtration and UV sterilization, as I see you have expanded on them.
First of all, I'm in the minority as a proponent of mechanical filtration. Up until the early 90's it was a primary function of marine aquaria filtration systems. Then along came a few authors like Julian Sprung with the great idea that much of the junk we were collecting was in fact food for corals in our "nutrient starved tanks". As the hobby moved to more challenging hard corals (LPS & SPS) the demand for nutrient-poor water was increased, but for some reason the mechanical filter never came back into fashion. It just isn't a sexy high tech device you can show off to your friends. The value of detritus as a viable food source for coral was a little weak anyway, so I'm all for the removal of it before it enters the nitrogen and phosphate cycles (nutrient cycle).
The advent of wave and surge devices coupled with engineered flow dynamics at greater volumes, meant that detritus stayed suspended for longer in modern systems. This resulted in a "snow globe effect", whereby detritus floated through the system almost indefinitely. Sure the protein skimmer captured some of it but in the absence of a filter sock, foam pad, polyester floss, pleated cartridge filter, or settling container you are relying on corals to consume detritus, when they are not detrivores.
Now more than ever we need to use mechanical filtration. It does not rob corals of nutrients and it does not make the water "too clean". Mechanical filters increase water clarity, removing the collective yellowing effect of pigmented organics. This increase in clarity improves light penetration and photosynthesis. Pleated cartridge filters such as the ones Peter is using are typically rated at 25 microns, but with clogging they can remove particles down to one micron. This means that certain parasites like ich will be physically removed.
There is such thing as too much mechanical filtration however. You have to leave some "food" for corals. For this reason I would consider running a filter cartridge in only one of your two mechanical filters at a time. Every week you can swap canisters and cartridges. You do have a big tank, so two filters is probably right-sized for your application. Alternatively, you can use the cartridge unit as a media filter and fill it with carbon, phosphate remover, or carbon source pellets etc. Some pleated cartridges have a hollow core with a perforated nylon tube in the center for holding chemical filter media. Another caveat of mechanical filtration as it is only as effective as the user. Once the detritus is trapped in the cartridge it should be removed within a week, preferably sooner. If you don't remove the cartridge for cleaning the detritus breaks down and dissolves and enters the nitrogen cycle as bacteria starts to consume it. Make sure the canister is easy to reach with shut-off/bypass valves and clearance to exchange cartridges. Order a few extra cartridges so you can periodically bleach them and keep clean ones in the on-deck circle for cleaning time.
As for the UV sterilizers, they will run best on a bypass so the flow rate is slow. You get a higher kill ratio (zap count) if the water is exposed to the bulb for longer periods of time (dwell/contact time). The larger the organism, the longer it needs to be exposed to the UV. Bacteria is easy to zap, while larger parasites need more dwell time. This article sums up Pedro Escobal's formula for UV sterilizer throughput. http://www.aquariumadvice.com/articles/articles/44/1/Introduction-to-UV-sterilizers/Page1.html
Escobal literally wrote the book on filtration devices and system engineering http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aquatic-Systems-Engineering-Devices-Function/dp/1888381051
The book is out of print, but you can find it used online. The book gets very technical, but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to follow it. The author however is. As a matter of fact he wrote the book on it as well. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Methods-Astrodynamics-Pedro-Ramon-Escobal/dp/0471245283/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1
Two of them actually. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Methods-Orbit-Determination-Pedro-Escobal/dp/0882753193/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2
He never did get around to finishing that book about brain surgery
I hope I haven't deprived you of any sleep over this Peter
Good post Mr. W but would you not accomplish the same mechanical filtration of a cannister filter but running a micron filter sock or two on the drain lines which can be easily changed out every second day or so.
This is assuming that you are running carbon in some sort of secondary reactor and phosban(which I understand can't be effectively run in a cannister filter)
nineball
Active member
Peter,
I have been following the progress for a few weeks and I have to say again as so many others have done in the past posts. WOW! You are going to have an amazing setup when you get ?Done? is a Reef tank ever "Done"
Your live rock looks really good to me and I see what looks like 3 different types of algae. Picture 1 shows one type and picture 3 and 6 show two other types. The post before shows picture 1 and said it looked like "Red Turf Algae". I don't think this is Red Turf and will most likely be very benificial to the tank when it is setup, if the algae survives. I have the same stuff growing in my reef tank and it grows slowly and stays put in one spot like a little tree. I am sure you will have some form of Tang in this system and as soon as it finds this little treat it will be gone anyway. This is just what I have seen in my own 5 yr old 300 Gallon Reef tank and never had a problem with it in my system. Picture 3 shows an algae that looks a bit more like a turf algae and should be looked into further. The algae in picture 6 looks more like a form of Dictyota, mostly found in green coloration but there are several varities of this algae.
Link to a pic of Dictyota....
http://z.about.com/d/saltaquarium/1/0/y/V/1/dictyota-acutiloba.jpg
I would definately wait before pulling anything plant like off the rocks because most of the forms of life you will find on your rock will be benificial to the tank if it survives the swarms of Tangs.
Hope this helps, keep up the good work. I hope it all turns out just like it looks in your head.
Cheers,
Mike in FL. Panhandle
Link to a picture from RC thread showing Red Turf Algae...
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-01/sl/images/image027.jpg
Wow my first post in 6 years!! Go Peter!
Mike, first post in six years???? I and I am sure my collegues on this thread are honoured with your 'surfacing'. This is very helpful.
I believe you are right, I checked the links you provided and they appear very consistant with your observations. The picture #3 as you pointed out is different than the others. The sample that I have on my rock is not as developed as the turf algae in the link so it is more difficult to be certain. The picture I have is considerably higher resolution but if I post that here its just a fraction smaller than the state of Texas and would probably sink the entire forum.
nineball
Active member
Good to hear about the flow volume improvements. Here are a few points to torment you about mechanical filtration and UV sterilization, as I see you have expanded on them.
First of all, I'm in the minority as a proponent of mechanical filtration. Up until the early 90's it was a primary function of marine aquaria filtration systems. Then along came a few authors like Julian Sprung with the great idea that much of the junk we were collecting was in fact food for corals in our "nutrient starved tanks". As the hobby moved to more challenging hard corals (LPS & SPS) the demand for nutrient-poor water was increased, but for some reason the mechanical filter never came back into fashion. It just isn't a sexy high tech device you can show off to your friends. The value of detritus as a viable food source for coral was a little weak anyway, so I'm all for the removal of it before it enters the nitrogen and phosphate cycles (nutrient cycle).
The advent of wave and surge devices coupled with engineered flow dynamics at greater volumes, meant that detritus stayed suspended for longer in modern systems. This resulted in a "snow globe effect", whereby detritus floated through the system almost indefinitely. Sure the protein skimmer captured some of it but in the absence of a filter sock, foam pad, polyester floss, pleated cartridge filter, or settling container you are relying on corals to consume detritus, when they are not detrivores.
Now more than ever we need to use mechanical filtration. It does not rob corals of nutrients and it does not make the water "too clean". Mechanical filters increase water clarity, removing the collective yellowing effect of pigmented organics. This increase in clarity improves light penetration and photosynthesis. Pleated cartridge filters such as the ones Peter is using are typically rated at 25 microns, but with clogging they can remove particles down to one micron. This means that certain parasites like ich will be physically removed.
There is such thing as too much mechanical filtration however. You have to leave some "food" for corals. For this reason I would consider running a filter cartridge in only one of your two mechanical filters at a time. Every week you can swap canisters and cartridges. You do have a big tank, so two filters is probably right-sized for your application. Alternatively, you can use the cartridge unit as a media filter and fill it with carbon, phosphate remover, or carbon source pellets etc. Some pleated cartridges have a hollow core with a perforated nylon tube in the center for holding chemical filter media. Another caveat of mechanical filtration as it is only as effective as the user. Once the detritus is trapped in the cartridge it should be removed within a week, preferably sooner. If you don't remove the cartridge for cleaning the detritus breaks down and dissolves and enters the nitrogen cycle as bacteria starts to consume it. Make sure the canister is easy to reach with shut-off/bypass valves and clearance to exchange cartridges. Order a few extra cartridges so you can periodically bleach them and keep clean ones in the on-deck circle for cleaning time.
As for the UV sterilizers, they will run best on a bypass so the flow rate is slow. You get a higher kill ratio (zap count) if the water is exposed to the bulb for longer periods of time (dwell/contact time). The larger the organism, the longer it needs to be exposed to the UV. Bacteria is easy to zap, while larger parasites need more dwell time. This article sums up Pedro Escobal's formula for UV sterilizer throughput. http://www.aquariumadvice.com/articles/articles/44/1/Introduction-to-UV-sterilizers/Page1.html
Escobal literally wrote the book on filtration devices and system engineering http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aquatic-Systems-Engineering-Devices-Function/dp/1888381051
The book is out of print, but you can find it used online. The book gets very technical, but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to follow it. The author however is. As a matter of fact he wrote the book on it as well. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Methods-Astrodynamics-Pedro-Ramon-Escobal/dp/0471245283/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1
Two of them actually. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Methods-Orbit-Determination-Pedro-Escobal/dp/0882753193/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2
He never did get around to finishing that book about brain surgery
I hope I haven't deprived you of any sleep over this Peter
Actually I think I am beginning to hallucinate Shawn. This is good stuff. I think Chingchai would agree with most, if not all, of your bias on this subject. I am drawn to your strategy not because of anything academic, as my knowledge is still measured in nano grams, but because of clear and tangible results as evidenced in Chingchai's tank. His water clarity and quality is exceptional. He uses 10 micron filter socks and swears by them. If he reads this he can correct the data for me.
I will take your advice on the accessibility of the filter canisters for maintenance. I also agree with the importance of frequent monitoring of the efficiency to ensure the material is removed.....another 'to do' on my SOP.
As far as using the canisters with various alternative materials I will probably wait until I have a baseline of experience and data. :reading:
more on that subject I'm sure..............
Thank you again sir for your assist........There are those on this thread now who also appreciate your comments and have significantly more knowledge and experience than I. Your presence on this thread is one of its greater assets.
Peter
nineball
Active member
nineball
Active member
nineball
Active member
Antonais, here is the sand. I'm planning a shallow bed for the start.
We don't use titles in Canada. There really is only one person wearing many hats!!!! Everyone else left after the first snowfall!!!! They are living in Florida!
I haven't been to Bamff recently but I have been to Banff which I suspect is close by
Peter
nineball
Active member
Peter,
I have been following the progress for a few weeks and I have to say again as so many others have done in the past posts. WOW! You are going to have an amazing setup when you get ?Done? is a Reef tank ever "Done"
Your live rock looks really good to me and I see what looks like 3 different types of algae. Picture 1 shows one type and picture 3 and 6 show two other types. The post before shows picture 1 and said it looked like "Red Turf Algae". I don't think this is Red Turf and will most likely be very benificial to the tank when it is setup, if the algae survives. I have the same stuff growing in my reef tank and it grows slowly and stays put in one spot like a little tree. I am sure you will have some form of Tang in this system and as soon as it finds this little treat it will be gone anyway. This is just what I have seen in my own 5 yr old 300 Gallon Reef tank and never had a problem with it in my system. Picture 3 shows an algae that looks a bit more like a turf algae and should be looked into further. The algae in picture 6 looks more like a form of Dictyota, mostly found in green coloration but there are several varities of this algae.
Link to a pic of Dictyota....
http://z.about.com/d/saltaquarium/1/0/y/V/1/dictyota-acutiloba.jpg
I would definately wait before pulling anything plant like off the rocks because most of the forms of life you will find on your rock will be benificial to the tank if it survives the swarms of Tangs.
Hope this helps, keep up the good work. I hope it all turns out just like it looks in your head.
Cheers,
Mike in FL. Panhandle
Link to a picture from RC thread showing Red Turf Algae...
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-01/sl/images/image027.jpg
Wow my first post in 6 years!! Go Peter!
Mike, here is a close up of the #3 pic........I'm not sure but I don't think it's red turf algae. Whatever it is it certainly looks healthy.......
Mr Wilson is preparing some salad dressing for it........no salt please Shawn, I'm trying to cut down. :jester:
Peter
nineball
Active member
I'm not sure Shawn......here is a close up of the first pic.......
What do you think?
Peter
Marchingbandjs
New member
I would say that def looks like the gracilaria.... When do you plan on filling up the tank?
Funny. I figured that with the acrylic. I was just looking for a flaw in your all too bulletproof planning! lol
I prefer one pocket at any rate..... No hard breaks there. Since you are a friend of Cliff's, I will take 9-7 :dance:
Great pics. Keep them coming.
nineball
Active member
I know you would like me to do it tonight so that it would be done by the time you get up in the morning BUT............The electrical must be done(currently underway), the plumbing can't be done until the drywall is finished(next week) because of my decision to surface mount as much as possible with a long term view to maintenance and structural longevity. The toughest part is the difficulty in freezing the specifications.......every time I click one of Mr. Wilson's links the blueprint shifts and that is driving John from DQI crazy!!!!
The simple answer is that we are three to four weeks from putting water in the tank. In many respects this next chapter of the build "The Integrated Fish Room" is by far one of the most important parts of this whole build. I am determined to get this part done with a very high standard of excellence and adherence to the principle stated at the outset of the build. The 'Fish Room' or support infrastructure will be an integrated part of the viewing experience. My hope is that the entire ecosystem is as significant as the main display tank. That means putting all the smell, noise, lights and machinery in proper context for the audience and that challenge is not trivial. I know this for certain as I have smelled the skimmer cup and will admit that I would rather fly through a volcanic dust cloud than smell it again!!!!
Peter
nineball
Active member
Cliff asked me if you were a good one pocket player and I told him I thought you might be. His advice to me was to have a large axe ready to give you whatever you wanted out of the tank!!!!!!
I'm sensing a slight reduction in the confidence levels around here!!
Peter
Rybren
Well-known member
They must have removed the video. I saw it when Mr Wilson first posted the link, but I can't get to it anymore.
If you go to this page..
http://www.oceansmotions.com/store/video.php?osCsid=0515b8568ed29e6776f33d8d920b1e1c
and click on the video 1 demo, it will work.
allenjj
New member
I must say that your thread has me now thinking about the bigger tank that I want to get. Miracle mud is available in many larger fish stores that carry reef supplies. You can also order it online from several sources. I have spent all day reading this thread with great awe. I cant wait for you to finish this project Peter so that we can all see the results.
John
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nineball
Active member
Thanks John, after cleaning the live rock yesterday I have to admit that a 300gal tank would have had a phenomenal appeal by the end of the day. Thanks for the miracle mud reference.
I have to admit that a project of this size requires more than a passing reference to patience. I found I had to put the obvious milestones like water in the tank waaaaay back in the in the excitement department. Much of the emotional fuel is driven by a sense of accomplishment in getting the details right in areas that usually get glossed over in the rush to get fish in the water. In order to keep my balance through this thing I just reset my expectations in general, away from immediate gratification. I also have a heck of a lot to learn, so as any slo learner will tell you .......you just can't expect to add water and stir.............
Success in this hobby, not unlike business in general, is not simply throwing the dice and hoping for the right numbers to come up. It is knowing what the numbers will be before the dice hit the table! This takes practice and practice takes time.
Welcome to our growing group.
Peter
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
There are different species of gracileria that fall under the same genus (gracileria family). Not only does each variety differ in shape, but there is a variation due to light and available nutrients etc. In other words it takes on all kinds of shapes. It looks like you have a few types of macro algae anyway. I would leave it for the fish unless you identify any specific ones that grow out of control like red turf algae or any turf algae for that matter.
BTW gracileria is grown for human consumption and makes up a great deal of the agar agar production (used as a gelatin substitute). I'll take my prize in the form of a pavlova in honour of our Australian host and the generous contributors.
The video I posted earlier may take a minute to load, or try the other link posted. If you ever make it there, you can see a video of a rotating valve that controls the direction of water in a closed loop system. It alternates from sucking to blowing from end to end and top to bottom in series. The end result is a psunami-like wave action. The benefits of such an action are numerous...
1) Variable flow so SPS can grow evenly like a Charles Dickens Christmas tree, rather than a Charles Brown Christmas tree.
2) Detritus suspension for coral feeding, and delivery to the various filtration devices.
3) Removal of slime & sloughed off skin from coral tissue which helps corals filter feed and "breath".
4) Aeration of water at the surface air/water interface.
5) Flushes detritus out of rock work and from the substrate.
6) Creates a natural swaying motion with the corals or at least their tentacles.
7) Replicates the alternating current found on natural reefs.
8) Helps with the shimmering effect of lighting.
9) It keeps the intake strainer and plumbing lines free of debris as the direction of water flow is reversed every 5 seconds or so.
10) Most important of all... Impresses your friends and family
You can see the creator Paul in the background manually moving the valve to get different effects. The valve rotation speed is programmed according to the size of the tank and the wave action you want. The idea is to catch the perfect wave. You get a really nice rolling effect over a long tank like yours. I'm not sure how you would do it with the L shape, but probably with two zones starting from the bend and going both directions to the ends.
BTW gracileria is grown for human consumption and makes up a great deal of the agar agar production (used as a gelatin substitute). I'll take my prize in the form of a pavlova in honour of our Australian host and the generous contributors.
The video I posted earlier may take a minute to load, or try the other link posted. If you ever make it there, you can see a video of a rotating valve that controls the direction of water in a closed loop system. It alternates from sucking to blowing from end to end and top to bottom in series. The end result is a psunami-like wave action. The benefits of such an action are numerous...
1) Variable flow so SPS can grow evenly like a Charles Dickens Christmas tree, rather than a Charles Brown Christmas tree.
2) Detritus suspension for coral feeding, and delivery to the various filtration devices.
3) Removal of slime & sloughed off skin from coral tissue which helps corals filter feed and "breath".
4) Aeration of water at the surface air/water interface.
5) Flushes detritus out of rock work and from the substrate.
6) Creates a natural swaying motion with the corals or at least their tentacles.
7) Replicates the alternating current found on natural reefs.
8) Helps with the shimmering effect of lighting.
9) It keeps the intake strainer and plumbing lines free of debris as the direction of water flow is reversed every 5 seconds or so.
10) Most important of all... Impresses your friends and family
You can see the creator Paul in the background manually moving the valve to get different effects. The valve rotation speed is programmed according to the size of the tank and the wave action you want. The idea is to catch the perfect wave. You get a really nice rolling effect over a long tank like yours. I'm not sure how you would do it with the L shape, but probably with two zones starting from the bend and going both directions to the ends.
Last edited:
TriNewbie24
Member
Tank is awesome!
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