Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[nineball]

I have several wrasses and they burrow in the course sand without a problem. My sand bed is quite shallow and interestingly enough the gobies will take a mix of sand & rubble to pile up around their cave area creating a spot where it's quite deep so a few of the larger wrasses burrow in that spot at night.
I use rubble in high flow areas where the sand tends to blow away. It works well and looks very natural.

Another great suggestion which works in concert with Mr. Wilson's concerns I believe.

Peter

 

[nineball]

I agree with the Capn's opinion on only one inch of sand on the bottom (just enough to cover the bottom), as well as the top-up idea annually. Any calcareous (calcium-based) substrate will act as a phosphate sink as it absorbs it. If you use a phosphate remover such as an iron-based (ferric oxide) gravel in a media reactor, you will not have to remove a portion of the sand annually as the reactor will leach the phosphate out of it by keeping the water column phosphate-free, leaving room for it to go back into solution.

Where I will differ in opinion is with the size of the aragonite grains. You aren't going to like my answer, but I would never use fine sand with an acrylic tank. The sand flies up and gets into the cleaning magnet resulting in scratches. I use the coarse aragonite with shells mixed in. It keeps the sand out of the magnet as well as out of the closed loop intakes. Natural reefs have coarse substrate. Some people don't like the coraline algae growth you get with larger granules, but I prefer it over the yellowish colour you get with aged aragonite.

Biologically and chemically you will have the same results with large or small granules. There are sound arguments that either is more efficient than the other. As the Capn pointed out, coarse sand will collect more detritus, but if you go with fine sand the detritus sits on the surface. It's like having a deep pile shag rug that hides dirt or a hardwood floor that looks dirty with the smallest amount of debris. Both have their merits.

Burrowing fish like wrasse prefer fine sand so they can swim right into it, while cave building fish like gobies prefer coarse sand as it is a more stable building block for tunnels.

With glass tanks I use the stuff you bought mixed with shells and coarse on top, but as I mentioned, acrylic tanks work best with substrate that won't migrate into the cleaning magnet.

Speaking of cleaning magnets...........the longest acrylic panel is 1.5 " thick. What product is recommended for cleaning magnets.

Also I believe there have been a number of large tank owners who use Kent scrapers and swear by them. Any thoughts??

Peter

 

[Aquarist007]

Speaking of cleaning magnets...........the longest acrylic panel is 1.5 " thick. What product is recommended for cleaning magnets.

Also I believe there have been a number of large tank owners who use Kent scrapers and swear by them. Any thoughts??

Peter

That's and interesting question. I prefer the magnafloats but the largest one I believe ony does 5/8 inch acrylic. Mr Wilson will probably have the answer that I will be interested in knowing too

 

[Aquarist007]

I agree with the Capn's opinion on only one inch of sand on the bottom (just enough to cover the bottom), as well as the top-up idea annually. Any calcareous (calcium-based) substrate will act as a phosphate sink as it absorbs it. If you use a phosphate remover such as an iron-based (ferric oxide) gravel in a media reactor, you will not have to remove a portion of the sand annually as the reactor will leach the phosphate out of it by keeping the water column phosphate-free, leaving room for it to go back into solution.

Where I will differ in opinion is with the size of the aragonite grains. You aren't going to like my answer, but I would never use fine sand with an acrylic tank. The sand flies up and gets into the cleaning magnet resulting in scratches. I use the coarse aragonite with shells mixed in. It keeps the sand out of the magnet as well as out of the closed loop intakes. Natural reefs have coarse substrate. Some people don't like the coraline algae growth you get with larger granules, but I prefer it over the yellowish colour you get with aged aragonite.

Biologically and chemically you will have the same results with large or small granules. There are sound arguments that either is more efficient than the other. As the Capn pointed out, coarse sand will collect more detritus, but if you go with fine sand the detritus sits on the surface. It's like having a deep pile shag rug that hides dirt or a hardwood floor that looks dirty with the smallest amount of debris. Both have their merits.

Burrowing fish like wrasse prefer fine sand so they can swim right into it, while cave building fish like gobies prefer coarse sand as it is a more stable building block for tunnels.

With glass tanks I use the stuff you bought mixed with shells and coarse on top, but as I mentioned, acrylic tanks work best with substrate that won't migrate into the cleaning magnet.

what is your feeling on using freshwater substrate--medium grade pebbles in alot of the area with small pockets of medium grade argonite for inverts and fish that need it?

this was a 150 gal freshwater that I converted to reef for a client. Eventually we added areas or pockets of medium argonite to it

 

[mr.wilson]

Speaking of cleaning magnets...........the longest acrylic panel is 1.5 " thick. What product is recommended for cleaning magnets.

Also I believe there have been a number of large tank owners who use Kent scrapers and swear by them. Any thoughts??

Peter

I would go with a Mag-Float 1000 Professional. http://www.mops.ca/cgi-bin/SoftCart...000.asp?L+scstore+jppv8154ff466246+1271636760
http://www.mops.ca/cgi-bin/SoftCart...ts.html?L+scstore+jppv8154ff466246+1271637670
You should add a fleecy pad for acrylic tanks, or better still buy chemical-free Mr. Clean Quick Eraser pads and cut them in half to make them thin enough to be held with the magnet. The Quick Erasers polish the glass while removing stubborn algae.

I also use a microfibre cloth on the outside of the magnet where it touches the acrylic. If your wife is still talking to you, she may sew it into a pillowcase shape to fit over the magnet so it doesn't slide off. A soft sock works too. Keep the outer cloth clean and free of sharp debris that can scratch the acrylic. I wash the outside of the tank first with water to remove salt residue that can scratch.

Check the magnet regularly for sand and snails etc. Keep it out of the water to avoid sharp tube worm growth and to protect the magnets. The magnet is extremely strong so be very careful using it. Put the wet end in the tank against the acrylic, then slowly slide the outer magnet up to it as you move it across the surface of the viewing panel.

As I recommended earlier, angle your lighting inward so the viewing panels are not directly illuminated. This will cut back on nuisance algae growth and avoid casting shadows on the fish and corals.

The Kent scrapers with the red plastic blade for acrylic are good. Credit cards also work. I have a feeling yours is more powerful than mine

If and when you get an external scratch you can have the area buffed with jewelers ruby paste and a cloth buffing wheel on a hand drill. The hand polishing kits are for micro-scratches. You can address interior scratches on the wet side with wet sand paper on the magnet starting at 100 and going up to 2000 grit. If you are diligent this will not be an issue.

BTW, mops.ca is just over in Hamilton. The owner (Dan) is quick with deliveries and open for walk-in business. Service selection and price is excellent.

 

[Goodwin9]

Speaking of cleaning magnets...........the longest acrylic panel is 1.5 " thick. What product is recommended for cleaning magnets.

Also I believe there have been a number of large tank owners who use Kent scrapers and swear by them. Any thoughts??

Peter

Both Tunzie & Magnavore make magnets that will work with 1 1/2" acrylic. I use & like the Kent scrapers. Buy the replacement blades by the case as you will go through a lot of them....

 

[mr.wilson]

what is your feeling on using freshwater substrate--medium grade pebbles in alot of the area with small pockets of medium grade argonite for inverts and fish that need it?

If you use enough larger granules or shells around the perimeter of the tank, you can use finer sand in the centre for a compromise. One thing about large tanks is the substrate is more obvious as the open spaces are larger. What looks natural in a 100 gallon hobby tank looks too homogenous in a big tank like Peter's. Yu don't want it to look like your four reef structures are sitting on cat litter Take a look at a few tanks in person and decide what you like, as it is subject to personal preference.

 

[Aquarist007]

I would go with a Mag-Float 1000 Professional. http://www.mops.ca/cgi-bin/SoftCart...000.asp?L+scstore+jppv8154ff466246+1271636760
http://www.mops.ca/cgi-bin/SoftCart...ts.html?L+scstore+jppv8154ff466246+1271637670
You should add a fleecy pad for acrylic tanks, or better still buy chemical-free Mr. Clean Quick Eraser pads and cut them in half to make them thin enough to be held with the magnet. The Quick Erasers polish the glass while removing stubborn algae.

I also use a microfibre cloth on the outside of the magnet where it touches the acrylic. If your wife is still talking to you, she may sew it into a pillowcase shape to fit over the magnet so it doesn't slide off. A soft sock works too. Keep the outer cloth clean and free of sharp debris that can scratch the acrylic. I wash the outside of the tank first with water to remove salt residue that can scratch.

Check the magnet regularly for sand and snails etc. Keep it out of the water to avoid sharp tube worm growth and to protect the magnets. The magnet is extremely strong so be very careful using it. Put the wet end in the tank against the acrylic, then slowly slide the outer magnet up to it as you move it across the surface of the viewing panel.

As I recommended earlier, angle your lighting inward so the viewing panels are not directly illuminated. This will cut back on nuisance algae growth and avoid casting shadows on the fish and corals.

The Kent scrapers with the red plastic blade for acrylic are good. Credit cards also work. I have a feeling yours is more powerful than mine

If and when you get an external scratch you can have the area buffed with jewelers ruby paste and a cloth buffing wheel on a hand drill. The hand polishing kits are for micro-scratches. You can address interior scratches on the wet side with wet sand paper on the magnet starting at 100 and going up to 2000 grit. If you are diligent this will not be an issue.

BTW, mops.ca is just over in Hamilton. The owner (Dan) is quick with deliveries and open for walk-in business. Service selection and price is excellent.

thanks Mr W--I knew you would have the answer. Funny I looked on Dan's site and could not find that one.
Thank you for mentioning Mops---Dan has been my mentor and close friend and helped my business out immmensly. The guy is knowledgable and genuinely wants to help fellow reefers.

 

[mr.wilson]

Both Tunzie & Magnavore make magnets that will work with 1 1/2" acrylic.

The shortcoming of the Tunze magnet is it doesn't float. You can laminate a piece of styrofoam or spray foam (greatstuff) to it so it floats, but what I do is use the strong Tunze magnet on the outside of the tank and a standard Mag-Float floating magnet on the inside. This compromises some strength, but gives more maneuverability. The Tunze is rated for 1.6" so it's cutting it close for Peter's tank.

 

[Aquarist007]

If you use enough larger granules or shells around the perimeter of the tank, you can use finer sand in the centre for a compromise. One thing about large tanks is the substrate is more obvious as the open spaces are larger. What looks natural in a 100 gallon hobby tank looks too homogenous in a big tank like Peter's. Yu don't want it to look like your four reef structures are sitting on cat litter Take a look at a few tanks in person and decide what you like, as it is subject to personal preference.

I understand and this is why I suggested using both substrates. I just mentioned it because some reefers have this phobia against using fresh water substrates---none of which I have had problems with.

 

[mr.wilson]

thanks Mr W--I knew you would have the answer. Funny I looked on Dan's site and could not find that one.
Thank you for mentioning Mops---Dan has been my mentor and close friend and helped my business out immmensly. The guy is knowledgable and genuinely wants to help fellow reefers.

Yeah, Dan's whole staff is great. You couldn't ask for anything more. His warehouse isn't huge, but he always has what I need. Some retail stores much larger don't have the selection. If he doesn't have it, it's there in two days.

 

[Aquarist007]

Yeah, Dan's whole staff is great. You couldn't ask for anything more. His warehouse isn't huge, but he always has what I need. Some retail stores much larger don't have the selection. If he doesn't have it, it's there in two days.

Dan Scarrow

hope I am not violating any RC rules by posting but what the heck we are Cdn's

 

[mr.wilson]

I understand and this is why I suggested using both substrates. I just mentioned it because some reefers have this phobia against using fresh water substrates---none of which I have had problems with.

I agree, any non-metallic substrate will work. It took me awhile to get used to the idea that you can use anything other than aragonite for a reef tank. I'm even convinced silica sand is okay, but it will scratch the tank like a diamond.

In the old days we relied on calcareous substrate for chemical buffering of carbonates (DKH) and PH. Now we have (Nilsen) kalkwasser reactors, calcium reactors, and metering pumps to get the job done. In reality, any substrate is going to get coated with biofilms and cease to dissolve, so the buffering capacity is negligible in saltwater. It's a different story with African Cichlid tanks, but we'll save that discussion for another forum

What do you have planned for maintaining water chemistry Peter? Other than a spare bedroom for Michael

 

[mr.wilson]

Dan Scarrow

hope I am not violating any RC rules by posting but what the heck we are Cdn's

Let's just hope there aren't any outstanding warrants for him under a different name

 

[Aquarist007]

Let's just hope there aren't any outstanding warrants for him under a different name

The Shooting of Dan McGrew(aka Scarrow)
A bunch of the boys were whooping it up in the Malamute saloon;
The kid that handles the music-box was hitting a jag-time tune;
Back of the bar, in a solo game, sat Dangerous Dan McGrew,
And watching his luck was his light-o'-love, the lady that's known as Lou.

When out of the night, which was fifty below, and into the din and the glare,
There stumbled a miner fresh from the creeks, dog-dirty, and loaded for bear.
He looked like a man with a foot in the grave and scarcely the strength of a louse,
Yet he tilted a poke of dust on the bar, and he called for drinks for the house.
There was none could place the stranger's face, though we searched ourselves for a clue;
But we drank his health, and the last to drink was Dangerous Dan McGrew.

There's men that somehow just grip your eyes, and hold them hard like a spell;
And such was he, and he looked to me like a man who had lived in hell;
With a face most hair, and the dreary stare of a dog whose day is done,
As he watered the green stuff in his glass, and the drops fell one by one.
Then I got to figgering who he was, and wondering what he'd do,
And I turned my head -- and there watching him was the lady that's known as Lou.


Poem by Service

 

[mr.wilson]

I didn't notice the substrate picture you posted with your earlier post. One benefit of a white substrate is light reflection and an overall brighter look of the tank. Having said that, I've seen some dramatic effects with black coral sand.

 

[Aquarist007]

I didn't notice the substrate picture you posted with your earlier post. One benefit of a white substrate is light reflection and an overall brighter look of the tank. Having said that, I've seen some dramatic effects with black coral sand.

As you state above---the variety is the key esp in a large tank. If I had a whole tank shot you would see that the reefer had a variety of substrates through out the tank. He had ribbons or seems of smaller gravels woven amount the large stuff and the argonite

Can you post a link to pics of the substrate setup of larger tanks. I would profit from seeing that as I am sure Peter would.

 

[mr.wilson]

As you state above---the variety is the key esp in a large tank. If I had a whole tank shot you would see that the reefer had a variety of substrates through out the tank. He had ribbons or seems of smaller gravels woven amount the large stuff and the argonite

Can you post a link to pics of the substrate setup of larger tanks. I would profit from seeing that as I am sure Peter would.

Substrate photos are few and far between. There is a really nice cylinder tank in this book with finger sized acro skeletons as substrate. It's a good book for Peter or anyone to pick up for dream tank ideas. The two authors Nilsen & Fossa are legendary reef keepers and writers. I nominate Peter's tank for volume two. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/5/media

I find that creating a transition in different areas of the substrate makes it look more natural and puts it into scale. Ignoring the acrylic scratching function, and moving the focus to form, you can start with fine sand near the viewing panels and gradually build toward the reef with medium - coarse - shells - acro skeletons - branch rock - plate-like rock - then reef. The fish will mix it a bit but that keeps it from looking Kitsch.

 

[nineball]

I would go with a Mag-Float 1000 Professional. http://www.mops.ca/cgi-bin/SoftCart...000.asp?L+scstore+jppv8154ff466246+1271636760
http://www.mops.ca/cgi-bin/SoftCart...ts.html?L+scstore+jppv8154ff466246+1271637670
You should add a fleecy pad for acrylic tanks, or better still buy chemical-free Mr. Clean Quick Eraser pads and cut them in half to make them thin enough to be held with the magnet. The Quick Erasers polish the glass while removing stubborn algae.

I also use a microfibre cloth on the outside of the magnet where it touches the acrylic. If your wife is still talking to you, she may sew it into a pillowcase shape to fit over the magnet so it doesn't slide off. A soft sock works too. Keep the outer cloth clean and free of sharp debris that can scratch the acrylic. I wash the outside of the tank first with water to remove salt residue that can scratch.

Check the magnet regularly for sand and snails etc. Keep it out of the water to avoid sharp tube worm growth and to protect the magnets. The magnet is extremely strong so be very careful using it. Put the wet end in the tank against the acrylic, then slowly slide the outer magnet up to it as you move it across the surface of the viewing panel.

As I recommended earlier, angle your lighting inward so the viewing panels are not directly illuminated. This will cut back on nuisance algae growth and avoid casting shadows on the fish and corals.

The Kent scrapers with the red plastic blade for acrylic are good. Credit cards also work. I have a feeling yours is more powerful than mine

If and when you get an external scratch you can have the area buffed with jewelers ruby paste and a cloth buffing wheel on a hand drill. The hand polishing kits are for micro-scratches. You can address interior scratches on the wet side with wet sand paper on the magnet starting at 100 and going up to 2000 grit. If you are diligent this will not be an issue.

BTW, mops.ca is just over in Hamilton. The owner (Dan) is quick with deliveries and open for walk-in business. Service selection and price is excellent.

Great advice Mr. Wilson. Now for a dumb follow-on. My short panels are 1" and I assume that I cannot use the model you recommended for the whole tank as it is for 1.5" or bigger? So I will need two strengths??

Also the Mr. Clean product sounds great.....are you sure its safe??

Peter

 

[Posidion]

I have to agree with mr wilson, the black sands look great for effect though im not shure it would be so in a tank this large. My personal prefrence on substrate is a mix of fine and medium grain sand. I like the carib sea pinkflimingo for the large grain size variance and its several shades of pink that makes up the larger particles. (had i not taken my display down last week to do some remodling of my own i would have taken a pic for you. If I can find an old one that shows the substrate well ill post it.) If you have room at the bottom edge of your reef structures a small rubble zone would make a nice natural accent.