Cryptocaryon Irritans - tank transfer method

[tmz]

More nonsense and twisting.Don't put words in my mouth .

Please, you know that ammonia is not good for fish. Why would you want to take up a position that claims a bit of ammonia is not very bad? The fact is that it can be very bad and the impact may not show months later.

Of course it's harmful even at low levels,maybe as low as 0.1pmm, to repeat less than <0.1ppm levels are recommended; test kits don't show below .25 , so undetectable ammonia is the goal with them.
Ammonia is part of the nitrogen cycle . No fixed nitrogen equals no protein. peptides, dna ;and, no life.
Your claim that you never expose your fish to any ammonia is nonsense and shows a lack of understanding of fundamental facts. Fish and other organisms are always exposed to small amounts and produce it as waste to expel excess nitrogen the take in form foods.

The purpose of the UV is to vastly reduce the waterborne concentration of pathogenic bacteria and viruses.

Those small microorganisms that pass through an appropiately sized uv will perish including benificial organisms Those that don't pass through will grow faster to match the available food supply.

The UV destroys many drugs, so it is more preventive than cure.

Uh huh. Uv is contraindicated with copper medications like Cupramine btw. So,exactly why do you use it and copper together?

Ever since I started using the UV about 25 years ago, the incidents of bacterial infection has dropped by about 80%.

What kinds of bacterial infections? Do you have any specifics ? Ever since I put my uvs on the shelf about 6 years ago my tanks are thriving and I've not had a bacterial; infection in the 40 fish in them.I rarely see them in new qt'd fish but treat them appropriately with antibiotics when I do.
I would agree that a beginner should not be told too mch, more than he can digest.

That's condescending and evidently true of folks with more time in the hobby who refuse to learn and misdirect others ;maybe more so in some cases.

 

[wooden_reefer]

This is my last post on this subject.

Let me say that if an aquarist's interest is mostly reef with only a few small fish, this TT method way suffice as there is little interest in fish. One then choose tidal pool fish that can take this treatment. They are tough and many do not come down with bacterial infection as easily. Perhaps my view is too rigid but only in this regard.

Otherwise, for those who have strong interest in fish, the reasons repeated below should completely debunk this TT method as it is outline, or even with the added info on Prime or Amquel.

1. The whole idea does not always work. Ich attacks come in waves. What if a sudden large wave existed and there are already too many attachments on the fish that are still not seen by the naked eyes. In just two days your fish may die.

2. Repeat ammonia exposure unless you use Prime or Amquel.

3. Too much handling that risks damaging the mucus barrier of fish that increases the chance of bacterial infection.

4. More physical work that impedes compliance and length of treatment

5. Better methods like hypo and copper are much more compatiable with bacterial and viral control in conjuction with UV application.

 

[b0bab0ey]

wooden_reefer, I think you are probably an old school hobbyist who is very set in his ways and is resistant to change.

I've been keeping s/w fish for over 30 years now, and when I first stumbled upon RC and started reading threads about things like TT & bare-bottom QTs I initially was very skeptical too. But then I humbled myself, and realized these guys had figured out a better way to do certain things than I had been doing it. By taking a leap of faith and implementing their suggestions, I feel I've grown in knowledge and have become more proficient in this hobby.

I thank all the individuals who willingly share their knowledge & experience, and for bringing methods such as TT to light.

 

[wooden_reefer]

wooden_reefer, I think you are probably an old school hobbyist who is very set in his ways and is resistant to change.

I've been keeping s/w fish for over 30 years now, and when I first stumbled upon RC and started reading threads about things like TT & bare-bottom QTs I initially was very skeptical too. But then I humbled myself, and realized these guys had figured out a better way to do certain things than I had been doing it. By taking a leap of faith and implementing their suggestions, I feel I've grown in knowledge and have become more proficient in this hobby.

I thank all the individuals who willingly share their knowledge & experience, and for bringing methods such as TT to light.

I am willing to change when there is a need.

When I hear someone say that there is bound to be ammonia in the QT, it does not indicate trend but simple ignorance.

 

[tmz]

1. The whole idea does not always work. Ich attacks come in waves. What if a sudden large wave existed and there are already too many attachments on the fish that are still not seen by the naked eyes. In just two days your fish may die.

Nah, you got that wrong too.
At least read up on the basics about the life cycle crytocaryon irritans before trying to get others to follow your pronouncements , proscriptions and prescriptions and deriding others contributions.

The attacks come after (encysted tomites develop into theronts and leave the tomont phase , ie the cyst (after developing there for 3 to 28 days) . The theronts seek a fish to infect and need one within 24 hours before starving. They swim to the fish and infect it. They feed on the fish for about 3 to 7 days and leave as protomonts to form tomonts again and do so in 2 to 18 hours, then encyst as tomonts and form tomites that develop into theronts again.
During the intial infestation by trophonts the fish is often killed or suffers damage to it's gills or wounds that may become infected . Many times fish survive the initia l infestation and succumb to later infestations which are more virulent .
When trophonts leave the fish they are protomonts . They go to the bottom or other surfaces and encyst again to multiply a hundred to two hundredfold and again seek out a fish to feed on as one or two hundred new tophonts.

The only ich in a transfer tank are the trophonts that may come into the tank in or on a fish;no cysts on the bottom to hatch;so, no secondary infection or wave is possible . The fish moves before new trophonts can form.

There is no treatment for the trophonts in/on the fish; Copper and other meds or hyposalinity kill the free swimming phase, ie, theronts ;not embedded parasites or encysted ones. Thus , copper and hypo are designed to prevent secondary infestations after the intial bunch leave the fish.

Tank transfer eliminates secondary infections by abandoning the promonts ,tomonts and tomites before they have time to form into theronts. Drying the tank and equipment effectively sterilizes it by killing the cysts and any other forms of the parasite.

The timing of the teatment, 4 transfers 72 hours each, syncs with the life cycle of cryptocaryon irritans to ensure no parasites remain on or in the fish. Neat simple and natural.

Severely infested fish may get some relief via a fomalin bath, outside the transfer tank which may remove some of the parasites that may be clogging the gills in conjunction with tank transfer . That's a judgement call based on the behavior of the fish in a specific case. The bath could add stress and push it over the edge or might cause some parasites to fall off the gill tissue to help it breathe and give it a better shot at surviv ing that infestation.

 

[tmz]

When I hear someone say that there is bound to be ammonia in the QT, it does not indicate trend but simple ignorance.

Inaccurate and nonsense. The ubiquity and role of ammonia in the nitrogen cycle has been clearly explained;not by you. Take it or leave it or better yet study up on it.Just stop making stuff up. and hijacking the thread to suit your own need to talk abut your own methods. Thought you were done posting btw.

 

[Ciscokid]

1. The whole idea does not always work. Ich attacks come in waves. What if a sudden large wave existed and there are already too many attachments on the fish that are still not seen by the naked eyes. In just two days your fish may die.

Nah, you got that wrong too.
At least read up on the basics about the life cycle crytocaryon irritans before trying to get others to follow your pronouncements , proscriptions and prescriptions and deriding others contributions.

The attacks come after (encysted tomites develop into theronts and leave the tomont phase , ie the cyst (after developing there for 3 to 28 days) . The theronts seek a fish to infect and need one within 24 hours before starving. They swim to the fish and infect it. They feed on the fish for about 3 to 7 days and leave as protomonts to form tomonts again and do so in 2 to 18 hours, then encyst as tomonts and form tomites that develop into theronts again.
During the intial infestation by trophonts the fish is often killed or suffers damage to it's gills or wounds that may become infected . Many times fish survive the initia l infestation and succumb to later infestations which are more virulent .
When trophonts leave the fish they are protomonts . They go to the bottom or other surfaces and encyst again to multiply a hundred to two hundredfold and again seek out a fish to feed on as one or two hundred new tophonts.

The only ich in a transfer tank are the trophonts that may come into the tank in or on a fish;no cysts on the bottom to hatch;so, no secondary infection or wave is possible . The fish moves before new trophonts can form.

There is no treatment for the trophonts in/on the fish; Copper and other meds or hyposalinity kill the free swimming phase, ie, theronts ;not embedded parasites or encysted ones. Thus , copper and hypo are designed to prevent secondary infestations after the intial bunch leave the fish.

Tank transfer eliminates secondary infections by abandoning the promonts ,tomonts and tomites before they have time to form into theronts. Drying the tank and equipment effectively sterilizes it by killing the cysts and any other forms of the parasite.

The timing of the teatment, 4 transfers 72 hours each, syncs with the life cycle of cryptocaryon irritans to ensure no parasites remain on or in the fish. Neat simple and natural.

Severely infested fish may get some relief via a fomalin bath, outside the transfer tank which may remove some of the parasites that may be clogging the gills in conjunction with tank transfer . That's a judgement call based on the behavior of the fish in a specific case. The bath could add stress and push it over the edge or might cause some parasites to fall off the gill tissue to help it breathe and give it a better shot at surviv ing that infestation.

I have been reading alot on how to get rid of ich for the past day. After a whole day of reading confusing/opinionated threads and the LFS telling me all i needed was a UV sterilizer, i came upon your post that summed everything up clearly. If you know the life cycle of the pest you can beat it easily & naturally.

I have never used a QT in the 12 years i have been in the hobby....ICH free with multiple tanks.. I bought a fish 3 days ago that had no spots on it until the 2nd day in my DT. Come to find out my LFS changed suppliers. I have finally been bitten..

Last night when i came home, my tang was dead. I did notice alot of white specs floating in the tank. The dead fish didn't have any white spots on it. I didn't see any white spots on my other 4 fish.

Assuming I would treat the fish with the TT method, how could i treat the inverts and tank w/LR and sand?

 

[snake42490]

Cicscokid

UV alone will not rid the tank of ich, that is just the fact of life. You would need so many watts of UV and even then it can't guarantee every inch of water will be sucked through to kill off the parasite. It only takes 1 to start the whole process all over again. Having the proper UV could help control an infestation and keep it to the point where it doesn't overwhelm the fish. BUT it will not get rid of it.

Now your situation, i'm going to say that what you're dealing with is most likely not ich. Ich doesn't kill in two days. Sounds like you have marine velvet and if that is the case you need to act fast or you will be dealing with many more deaths. The first thing you need to do if you really care about your fish is get them out of the DT and into a QT tank so you can start treatment.

If you are dealing with ich TTM is a great way and works so well if you do it properly! I have yet to deal with Marine Velvet so I will let someone else chime in on how to treat, but you may want to start up a different thread so people can help you there instead of here!

 

[Ciscokid]

I examined the spots on the fish when they showed up, none of them had a fuzzy look to them or gold color.

I visited the store that sold me the fish to try to get a positive ID. They had a scopas tang that was covered in white spots. I told one of the workers and they told another person and he said "yes I know". That made me mad because if he knew, he shouldn't have sold anything out of the tank. I know the spots didn't just show up yesterday, they have had that stock on for almost a week.

I will get some meds today, but what about the tank itself?

I read on liveaquaria "Properly sized UV sterilizers will also kill the dinospores. "

 

[Ciscokid]

Today I noticed a few white specs floating in the water. They seem to have a whipping action to them. Any idea what they were?

I think its marine velvet disease.

Amyloodinium is a one-celled organism called a dinoflagellate because it has whip-like structures (flagella) which help it move.

Wish me luck.

 

[Bike2k]

Steve

I plan to use this method. One question though. My Kole Tang is what started this problem. if tangs are more prone to this disease could he again have this issue upon reintroduction to the DT or is the ich gone for ever?

 

[snorvich]

Steve

I plan to use this method. One question though. My Kole Tang is what started this problem. if tangs are more prone to this disease could he again have this issue upon reintroduction to the DT or is the ich gone for ever?

It is not easy to provide an answer to your question but if ich is eradicated, it will not spontaneously show up again unless reintroduced.

 

[Bike2k]

Thanks

 

[Chihuahua6]

My fish is scratching her gills. Now what?

I am on day 15 of the tank transfer method. Transfers took place on: 1/1, 1/3, 1/5, 1/7, 1/9, 1/12

I don't understand why she's scratching. She has already received a freshwater dip and a formalin bath as well, not that those treatments help with ich but I thought I would mention it.

 

[lkc]

I too am on my 5th transfer of the fish. All fish are scratching still. Can anyone tell me the optimum temperature in which to speed up the crypt cycle? My Copperband has a tomont that has been attached to its tail since the beginning. I have a feeling that it's taking much longer for this particular tomont to move thru the cycle because there is little blood in the tail for it to feed on. So, I would like to get the temperature up as high as possible to speed things along.

Chihuahua - You may have flukes too.....Fish will flash & scratch their gills when flukes are present. - Prazi.

 

[Chihuahua6]

They were treated with Prazipro already. I forgot to mention it.

 

[NTP66]

Hoping that snorvich is still checking in on this thread...

I went into my new saltwater tank thinking that I'd just use Cupramine and PraziPro beforehand, while in QT. After reading a ton of threads these past few days, I think I want to switch that Cupramine to the TTM.

I've got a 3" One Spot Foxface and a 2" Papuan Toby Puffer currently residing in my 29g QT, which is at 78° and 1.018. Both fish look fine right now, after one day, but obviously that doesn't mean much when talking about Ich. That being said, I have an abundance of 5g Home Depot buckets that I'd like to use for TTM, but have a few questions for you:

• Should I put both fish in the same bucket? If so, I assume I'd just fill it up nearly full?
• If I have to put the fish in separate buckets, do I still fill each bucket up for, or does it even matter?
• If I put the fish in separate buckets, any issues with using a single pump to power one airstone in each bucket?
• Any issues with my salinity being at 1.018, or should I wait a few days for that to raise, allowing evaporation to take care of it gradually?

I'd plan on using Prime to deal with ammonia. I have plenty of PVC to use inside the bucket, and think those two fish - who currently don't bother each other - would be okay in a 5g bucket together, but I'm new to saltwater tanks, so I'm looking for some advice here. Once I start the TTM, I plan on emptying the 29g tank and cleaning it for when the final stages of QT and PraziPro.


I just wish I had read this thread sooner so that I could have planned a little better, as my QT was already cycled and ready to go!


Mahalo in advance.

 

[Chihuahua6]

Tank transfer isn't working for me so far and I have been doing it for three weeks! I can't say they have ich but they still scratch their gill area every so often.

 

[NTP66]

Based on the research I've done, that sounds like it could be flukes. Though, please take my word with a grain of salt. I'm still trying to figure out the basics of TTM. Hopefully, some of my questions can be answered soon so that I can change up my process.

 

[Chihuahua6]

Based on the research I've done, that sounds like it could be flukes. Though, please take my word with a grain of salt. I'm still trying to figure out the basics of TTM. Hopefully, some of my questions can be answered soon so that I can change up my process.

I know that. I mentioned in the above post that they have been treated for flukes already. They have been treated for everything I can think of actually but still scratching the gills. Copper treatment starts tomorrow.