I know heat has an impact on the lifecycle, but I'm not sure of the survivable extremes for the ich or the chaeto.
Cryptocaryon Irritans - tank transfer method
- Thread starter snorvich
- Start date
I know heat has an impact on the lifecycle, but I'm not sure of the survivable extremes for the ich or the chaeto.
Heuristic
New member
Ya, I was going to pick some up from a LFS, but I'm not entirely sure how much I trust any of them to not just give my (72 is Monday) fallowed Ich again. I know the surefire bet would be to just let it sit for another 72 days by itself, but since it's an algae I figured there would be an aggressive method that make sure it's not on there without killing the algae.
If you dip your corals and there's a cyst on the plate, will it survive the dip and just end up in your tank anyways?
It's possible to bring in ich with anything wet but unlikely the cysts will settle on coral tissue or algae as far as I know but they might . Usually the corals procured from commercial vendors have little exposure to fish during the chain of custody . Coral dips may or may not harm an encysted parasite, the "shell" tends to protect them.Treatments even as strong as copper are geared to kill free swimming parasites not those that are encysted. A single cyst can produce upwards of 100 parasites,btw.
Last edited:
EddieJ
Premium Member
Interesting Question
Interesting Question
"The time required for theront development varies. In one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), theronts emerged from a group of tomonts sometime between 3 and 72 days, with most released from 4 to 8 days after tomont formation. In another study (Diggles and Lester 1996c ), tomite development and theront release occurred, on average, between 5 and 12.1 days after tomont formation, depending upon strain and temperature. There was no correlation between tomont size and theront release. Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) observed, in laboratory studies, that theronts were released only between the hours of 2:00 am and 9:00 am, even in total darkness; some suggest this strategy increases the chance for theronts to find a host, as many fish may be resting or closer to substrate during this time period. "
Ok, we go by the 72-76 day rule of leaving a tank fallow or for invert QT. Has anybody actually read and seen the numbers from the Colorni and Burgess 1997 study? I found it, but it was 40 bucks to download in PDF form. What do the numbers actually look like? how many tomonts in a group were under observation? as you can see two studies (Yashinaga and Dickerson 1994) put the majority of theront release at 3-12 days. I wonder what the numbers actually look like, such as 1 out of a 250 tomonts waited 72 days for release, which would put that as a statistical anomaly. How many times was this observed over how many groups? What I am getting at, if the 72 days is such an anomaly, who is to say that tomonts can't go 81 days? Does going fallow 72 days really increase your odds for success over let's say 40 days? Were as lets say, 98 percent released in 36 days? Just thinking out loud here guys...I am by no means an statistical mathematician..
Interesting Question
"The time required for theront development varies. In one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), theronts emerged from a group of tomonts sometime between 3 and 72 days, with most released from 4 to 8 days after tomont formation. In another study (Diggles and Lester 1996c ), tomite development and theront release occurred, on average, between 5 and 12.1 days after tomont formation, depending upon strain and temperature. There was no correlation between tomont size and theront release. Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) observed, in laboratory studies, that theronts were released only between the hours of 2:00 am and 9:00 am, even in total darkness; some suggest this strategy increases the chance for theronts to find a host, as many fish may be resting or closer to substrate during this time period. "
Ok, we go by the 72-76 day rule of leaving a tank fallow or for invert QT. Has anybody actually read and seen the numbers from the Colorni and Burgess 1997 study? I found it, but it was 40 bucks to download in PDF form. What do the numbers actually look like? how many tomonts in a group were under observation? as you can see two studies (Yashinaga and Dickerson 1994) put the majority of theront release at 3-12 days. I wonder what the numbers actually look like, such as 1 out of a 250 tomonts waited 72 days for release, which would put that as a statistical anomaly. How many times was this observed over how many groups? What I am getting at, if the 72 days is such an anomaly, who is to say that tomonts can't go 81 days? Does going fallow 72 days really increase your odds for success over let's say 40 days? Were as lets say, 98 percent released in 36 days? Just thinking out loud here guys...I am by no means an statistical mathematician..
Thanks for the information from the studies. I read sumaries of the Collini and Burgess study years ago and recall the others noted ;don't have the numbers you wan't. I do recall that the 72 day tomont viability was at low temps around 60 F.
I have no idea how to measure the probability of tomont viability for say 40 days vs 72 days or 81 days or anything other duration . Obviously , longer is potentially safer or at worst neutral but the question as to whether the extended fishless time is worth the risk avoidance payback doesn't seem to have a clear answer. 72 days has been the generally accepted standard ,anecdotally supported ; though less time might do just as well in many cases.
Complicating it all is the parasite's ability to mutate generationally with new genernations every few weeks most notably resulting in strains resistant to hypo salinity for example.
I have no idea how to measure the probability of tomont viability for say 40 days vs 72 days or 81 days or anything other duration . Obviously , longer is potentially safer or at worst neutral but the question as to whether the extended fishless time is worth the risk avoidance payback doesn't seem to have a clear answer. 72 days has been the generally accepted standard ,anecdotally supported ; though less time might do just as well in many cases.
Complicating it all is the parasite's ability to mutate generationally with new genernations every few weeks most notably resulting in strains resistant to hypo salinity for example.
Last edited:
EddieJ
Premium Member
I have used TTM religiously and have had great success with it. Now I am setting up a 40 gallon breeder as a Frag tank/coral qt/invert qt. Since I am a huge proponent of every fish goes thru TTM and then at least 20 days in QT after TTM for observation, it's time to put corals/inverts thru QT for my new build. Was just throwing those numbers thru my head and was trying to figure out if lets day 40 days actually puts you at 99 percent success rate, and the additional 32 days just gains you that one percent success. Or does it actually stay at 99 percent from 40days to lets say 90 days.. I know the law of diminishing returns comes into play at some point.
A qt tank for corals is a good move. Aside from ich, plenty of pests like tegastes/redbugs acro eating flatworms can get in with new stock even if you dip. Should that occur the qt gives specimens in your main system a degree of protection beyond dips ;treatment in qt is usually easier too.
How much risk is it to cut the tank transfer method short a couple days? Only 9 or 10 days of total time instead of the 12?
I'm currently on Day 3 of TTM of a foxface and midas blenny. I intended to do the full normal TTM process (plus Prazi treatment) with next Monday being my Day 12 when I am complete and add the fish to my display. However, I now am unexpectedly going to have to leave town next weekend. I don't think I can get a fish-sitter with the competency to cover the last few days of TTM for me.
So how much risk would I be adding by completing after 9 days (3 72-hour transfers) and moving the fish to my display before leaving for the weekend? Am I better off adding the fish to my display after 9 days, or doing the last TTM on day 9 and then hoping those 2 fish are ok for 3-days without anyone around to feed them or add Prime to the water (I don't typically use any filtration)?
I'm currently on Day 3 of TTM of a foxface and midas blenny. I intended to do the full normal TTM process (plus Prazi treatment) with next Monday being my Day 12 when I am complete and add the fish to my display. However, I now am unexpectedly going to have to leave town next weekend. I don't think I can get a fish-sitter with the competency to cover the last few days of TTM for me.
So how much risk would I be adding by completing after 9 days (3 72-hour transfers) and moving the fish to my display before leaving for the weekend? Am I better off adding the fish to my display after 9 days, or doing the last TTM on day 9 and then hoping those 2 fish are ok for 3-days without anyone around to feed them or add Prime to the water (I don't typically use any filtration)?
sensei
New member
you should complete the 4 TTM and then 4 weeks of observation before moving them to dt. remember that velvet and other diseases are not cured with TTM, thus observation is to be sure they are disease free.
I do not use any filtration when doing TTM, I use prime on 2nd and 3rd day.
I woudl say you are better of using prime on you 4th TTM and feed them a lot on the last day of your 3rd transffer
good luck
I do not use any filtration when doing TTM, I use prime on 2nd and 3rd day.
I woudl say you are better of using prime on you 4th TTM and feed them a lot on the last day of your 3rd transffer
good luck
Caution about the net that you don't use it on your established tanks. Watch for all cross contamination. I do use a net on transfer but the first stop is in a FW dip with net . Active dinospores and flukes tend not to make it past the Fresh water dip . I do use my hand on angels . Their cheek spines and fins get caught in the net and I find it less stressful when I handle them vs net
lagatbezan
Active member
Get a square colander from walmart or kmart. They are only a few dollars and works great and less likely to cause harm to the fish like Louis mentioned above. Can also get a clear specimen container like the ones they use at the LFS.
The two tanks should be at least 10' away from each other to prevent cross contamination: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2423604
I know it’s 72 hours per transfer for a total of 4 transfer equaling 12 days total. I know it’s ok to do less than 72 hours, but never more. My question is, if I do 71 hours to be extra sure I’m not exceeding the 72 hour mark, will I have to make up for the lost hour which will equal out to 4 total hours at the end of the 12 days?
I’m sure I’m over thinking it but wanted to be sure.
I’m sure I’m over thinking it but wanted to be sure.
Yea. You're overthinking it. An hour early isn't going to matter.
I say ok to the 71 hour mark but try to do the transfer early in the morning , before main lights come on. Somehow the parasite is triggered to hatch at daylight . As for a shortend TTM, you are on your own peril. Now saying that. I have done a shortend approach but with medication during the 72 hour periods . I can't recommend to you but, this is how I have done it. I either use copper or chloroquine during the TTM . Tends to contradict the "œmed free" treatment of TTM. In addition some fish appetites are affected during treatment and also some species have shown toxicity to either copper or CP. again that also defeats the med free TTM treatment. I also use the praziquantel and metronidazole (General Cure ) during but not dosed at the same time as copper or CP. I also do FW dips and Seachem's paraguard dips and only if I absolutely have to formalin dips . Unfortunately some fish come in with multiple parasites thus needing more than one type of medication. The dips are there to kill free swimming infective stages . So not only do you have to be looking for Ick but also velvet, Brooklynella, uronema which are all lethal and highly infective. There are other parasites also that are not that lethal ( body, gill, eye flukes) That may sound extreme and all these meds and transfers are difficult on the fish. Decreasing appetite and increasing anxiety. So it can be done but with great reservations . And do not forget to test for ammonia toxicity during these bare tank hospitalizations for that alone will kill the fish.
Fish were healthy and eating as soon as they arrived. Ordered from Live Aquaria. I am doing prazi treatment on the second and 4th treatment and keeping an eye on the ammonia. The fish look healthy with zero signs of parasites or infections. I think I’ll be ok, was just curious about the total hours per transfer... example 71 hours.
lagatbezan
Active member
72 hours is the MAXIMUM amount of time you want the fish to be in a tank. keep in mind that this time line is not a 100% science and there is always some small percentage of variance. for this reason I personally used to do TT every 48 hours. it will require two more transfers then doing it every 3 days, but personally I believe the chances of success are higher with it this way.
Keep in mind that TTM will not treat Velvet and in some ways can mask it since you are constantly moving the fish. Velvet is becoming more and more popular these days. TTM used to be my preferred choice of treatment for the past 8 years but recently I have switched back to using copper.
Keep in mind that TTM will not treat Velvet and in some ways can mask it since you are constantly moving the fish. Velvet is becoming more and more popular these days. TTM used to be my preferred choice of treatment for the past 8 years but recently I have switched back to using copper.
Yes I am seeing a lot of velvet too ,lately I still do TTM but with FW dip in between the transfer. And a modified TTM with either copper or chloroquine or general cure dosed in each tank . I just recently had velvet slip by and affect the fish in the 2nd transfer tank. I saved most but not all. I am dosing as I am transferring . Depends on the fish species , some are negatively affected by either copper or CP so I use appropriate med .
