CoralsAddiction
Active member
Good luck! Their are definitely not the easiest to care for and you are doing all you can.
Dave's 2nd attempt at a gig.
- Thread starter asudavew
- Start date
asudavew
Active member
CoralsAddiction
Active member
Bleached but good news it's still alive.
clorox
New member
Dave, I would throw a word of caution going from Septra to Cipro back to back.
As you know, I have been on the same boat several times treating a few gigs lately, and I have to say, that despite the frustration and hard work I have been learning a lot, thus increasing the chances of success by properly acclimating these hypersensitive animals. I know exactly the feeling you are going through, so don't give up, even if this one doesn't make it.
Through the course of attempting to treat my last gigs, I have been noticing that the degrees of perceived infection within them can vary from mild to severe, as we know most likely due to the accumulated stress of shipment and exposure to the pathogenic bacteria, which in some cases can take a while to kick in after they have been placed in our DT's.
What I have noticed are 2 important factors when treating gigs: timeliness of treatment and perhaps even more importantly when to stop.
I am becoming more convinced that these 2 factors are the most critical to observe when treating a gigantea.
Also, for gigs that were in relatively good shape like for instance yours, I think that 'dipping' rather than placing it in an HT for 5 days is better as it reduces the chances of overdosing and weakening it down to dangerous levels. It also prevents the severe bleaching that is apparent after treatment.
I have the same large LA gig that you ordered and I decided to dip in Cipro for anywhere between 30 minutes to 2 hours.
The gig arrived in spectacular condition (kudos to LA for sending me such a healthy specimen), however, it has been struggling to acclimate and it has been exhibiting some mild deflation and balling up resembling an urchin.
Since it wasn't severely sick (no loose gaping mouth or flabby oral disc symptoms), I decided to dip it in 1 gallon container with DT water and 250mg Cipro.
I make sure Cipro is fully dissolved (Cipro is better than Septra in that regard as it dissolves much quicker leaving water clear after just approx. 10 minutes), then place it in for at least 1/2 hour, then put it back in DT. I used a turkey baster to siphon any discharge before putting it back in my DT.
I have been doing this about 4-5 times over the past week and it looks like the gig is responding well. The objective is for it to stay inflated at all times and display the typical gigantea oral disc folds.
I'm starting to think that this method allows for closer monitoring and acclimates the gig better by easing it in your DT environment in a less traumatic way.
I am also convinced that using DT water (as long as you know it's good) is a better choice. Minh and others with large tanks can treat in HT's with DT water because 10g's are a relatively small amount for them, but in my case, 10g's are a major hassle given I have a 60g DT.
As you know, I have been on the same boat several times treating a few gigs lately, and I have to say, that despite the frustration and hard work I have been learning a lot, thus increasing the chances of success by properly acclimating these hypersensitive animals. I know exactly the feeling you are going through, so don't give up, even if this one doesn't make it.
Through the course of attempting to treat my last gigs, I have been noticing that the degrees of perceived infection within them can vary from mild to severe, as we know most likely due to the accumulated stress of shipment and exposure to the pathogenic bacteria, which in some cases can take a while to kick in after they have been placed in our DT's.
What I have noticed are 2 important factors when treating gigs: timeliness of treatment and perhaps even more importantly when to stop.
I am becoming more convinced that these 2 factors are the most critical to observe when treating a gigantea.
Also, for gigs that were in relatively good shape like for instance yours, I think that 'dipping' rather than placing it in an HT for 5 days is better as it reduces the chances of overdosing and weakening it down to dangerous levels. It also prevents the severe bleaching that is apparent after treatment.
I have the same large LA gig that you ordered and I decided to dip in Cipro for anywhere between 30 minutes to 2 hours.
The gig arrived in spectacular condition (kudos to LA for sending me such a healthy specimen), however, it has been struggling to acclimate and it has been exhibiting some mild deflation and balling up resembling an urchin.
Since it wasn't severely sick (no loose gaping mouth or flabby oral disc symptoms), I decided to dip it in 1 gallon container with DT water and 250mg Cipro.
I make sure Cipro is fully dissolved (Cipro is better than Septra in that regard as it dissolves much quicker leaving water clear after just approx. 10 minutes), then place it in for at least 1/2 hour, then put it back in DT. I used a turkey baster to siphon any discharge before putting it back in my DT.
I have been doing this about 4-5 times over the past week and it looks like the gig is responding well. The objective is for it to stay inflated at all times and display the typical gigantea oral disc folds.
I'm starting to think that this method allows for closer monitoring and acclimates the gig better by easing it in your DT environment in a less traumatic way.
I am also convinced that using DT water (as long as you know it's good) is a better choice. Minh and others with large tanks can treat in HT's with DT water because 10g's are a relatively small amount for them, but in my case, 10g's are a major hassle given I have a 60g DT.
Last edited:
clorox
New member
I still think that the risk of overdosing is very real. After all, anemones aren't humans and we know VERY little about what causes them to become sick. Treating them with antibiotics is by no means a silver bullet unfortunately, as there are so many unknowns and variables at play.
From my relative limited experience treating gigs, once they completely expelled zooxanthellae and look white and translucent, your chances of bringing them back become dramatically lower.
I believe that rather than stick to a strict dosing regimen, one should become more familiar with the behavioral patterns before, during and after recovery.
It is no coincidence that the most experienced gig keepers like OrionN, D-Nak, TaylorT, ptr13, AD87 and others are the ones that have had the most success keeping them long term, because I think they have learned over the years to anticipate and react accordingly to their patterns and needs, something that takes time and dedication to learn and understand.
DasCamel
New member
The risk of creating antibiotic resistant strains is also very real. I understand the rest.
asudavew
Active member
oh the conflicting info..:headwally:
I do think I treated this nem too long the first time around.
I'm not sure it will ever recover.
But.. maybe I would be saying the opposite if I only treated it 3 days...
:hmm4:
CoralsAddiction
Active member
These animals are so unpredictable...no joke. One day they will have you thinking all is good. The next day they will look like they need a graveyard...before inflating back half way. Go figure.
OrionN
Moved on
Don't short treat with antibiotic, lots of tiem it will get you into problem with resistant organism and when it relapse you won't be able to treat it.
It seem to me, Cipro maybe toxic to zooxanthellae and prolong treatment with Cipro, especially at higher dose, may cause more bleaching. With limited experiences with Septra, they seem to cause less bleaching. We should keep tab on how percentage of anemones treat with Septra that bleached vs. those treated with Cipro.
At this time, I tend to start to treat with Septra and only change to Cipro if I have problem of not improving with Septra. I don't think that bleaching is too significant of a problem. Bleached but otherwise healthy anemones always recover for me.
It seem to me, Cipro maybe toxic to zooxanthellae and prolong treatment with Cipro, especially at higher dose, may cause more bleaching. With limited experiences with Septra, they seem to cause less bleaching. We should keep tab on how percentage of anemones treat with Septra that bleached vs. those treated with Cipro.
At this time, I tend to start to treat with Septra and only change to Cipro if I have problem of not improving with Septra. I don't think that bleaching is too significant of a problem. Bleached but otherwise healthy anemones always recover for me.
clorox
New member
Just to be clear, I am not advocating to cut treatment short, I don't think I mentioned that in my post.
What I am saying is that I would caution being overly 'trigger happy' treating gigs right off the bat once you bring it home or delivered to your doorstep.
Also, overdosing and doing more damage than good is an ever present possibility.
One aspect is beyond any doubt (at least from my experience treating 6 gigs recently). Septra is milder than Cipro in terms of purging zooxanthellae.
I also noticed that larger gigs tolerate medication better than smaller ones which seems quite logical to me.
A bleached anemone is more delicate and prone to succumb unless you are experienced caring for it, or really lucky.
D-Nak
Active member
Something is killing the zoox -- it could be that it was already dead and the gig is slow to expel it. Or it could be that the antibiotic(s) are the reason. We simply don't know. It's extremely hard to determine because we receive newly imported gigs at various rates of decline -- some look great while others are extremely bleached.
I equate the scenario to cancer in humans -- treatment is radiation and/or chemotherapy -- but we are careful not to overdose or it can become lethal. In the case of antibiotics and gigantea, we need to kill the bacteria but not kill the host. We are also dealing with zoox, an organism that the anemone relies on for nutrients. I believe that the death of the zoox plays a direct part in the death of the nem. If the population of healthy zoox drops too low, the anemone starves. It becomes bleached and physically smaller in size, due to it "eating itself" to gain nutrients.
Here's what I'd like to know:
1. To combat starvation, would it be possible to provide nutrients to the anemone in ways that don't impede the nem from recovering (amino acids, liquid diet, etc.)? The issue I have is that I've witnessed gigantea react negatively to a high amount of amino acids added at one time, too quickly (it deflated). Is the anemone able to process the nutrients we give it while also trying to increase its zoox population?
2. Does Cipro and/or Septra kill beneficial bacteria within the nem or create an environment where other microorganisms can attack it? If so, does killing this beneficial bacteria in turn kill the zoox? For example, with AIDS, AIDS doesn't kill the host, it's usually something that the immune system --in its weakened state -- cannot combat, such as pneumonia.
3. Typical protocol for antibiotics is 5-7 days of continuous use. If dipping is used instead, how quickly can an organism become resistant to antibiotics? How long does a gig need to be dipped to be effective at killing the harmful bacteria?
Unfortunately, at this point, I have more questions than I have answers.
I equate the scenario to cancer in humans -- treatment is radiation and/or chemotherapy -- but we are careful not to overdose or it can become lethal. In the case of antibiotics and gigantea, we need to kill the bacteria but not kill the host. We are also dealing with zoox, an organism that the anemone relies on for nutrients. I believe that the death of the zoox plays a direct part in the death of the nem. If the population of healthy zoox drops too low, the anemone starves. It becomes bleached and physically smaller in size, due to it "eating itself" to gain nutrients.
Here's what I'd like to know:
1. To combat starvation, would it be possible to provide nutrients to the anemone in ways that don't impede the nem from recovering (amino acids, liquid diet, etc.)? The issue I have is that I've witnessed gigantea react negatively to a high amount of amino acids added at one time, too quickly (it deflated). Is the anemone able to process the nutrients we give it while also trying to increase its zoox population?
2. Does Cipro and/or Septra kill beneficial bacteria within the nem or create an environment where other microorganisms can attack it? If so, does killing this beneficial bacteria in turn kill the zoox? For example, with AIDS, AIDS doesn't kill the host, it's usually something that the immune system --in its weakened state -- cannot combat, such as pneumonia.
3. Typical protocol for antibiotics is 5-7 days of continuous use. If dipping is used instead, how quickly can an organism become resistant to antibiotics? How long does a gig need to be dipped to be effective at killing the harmful bacteria?
Unfortunately, at this point, I have more questions than I have answers.
taylor t
New member
Then I won't add anymore... but IMO, it's more than just the meds or water. On second thought, I will....
If I offend any, I'm sorry up front, sometimes I don't think or see when I speak, that's why I'm trying not to very much lately.... But looks like this gig can still be saved... Little grace please.
Dave, sorry to see your gig progressing the wrong way. Compare arrival day to the last pics. Pretty evident, sorry to see. I hope it turns around soon. There needs to be a change, and soon (minutes, not hours or days), and I don't know what that change needs to be for you. You have the advantage of looking with your own eyes, and that's what anyone trying to rehab needs also, first hand look. You need to figure it out on your own, hopefully someone can spark an idea in you to help. Too many variables, and the details matter. Wish I had the answer for you... But, I have a couple questions for you, and some rambling thoughts. I didn't see anywhere you describe how your water is made, how long it sits, how you mix, all little details matter. air stone? Time line? Does your RO sit and wait, or is it made and used right away same day? Is your TT surface skimmed? Air stone? Colonized sponge? HOB? More on water at the bottom of this... My second question is, do you have your house closed with the a/c on all the time? How is your fresh air exchange in your house? Could it be, that we've been looking for what's killing the zoo, blaming meds, but we should be asking what the zoo isn't getting that it needs in such a compromised (panting, it's been in the dark a while now from travelling) state? (sit in a dark closet with no lights for a day. Then go outside at noon. Eyes hurt? Compare that to a day at the beach.) Isn't zoo a form of "algae"? What if inside the inflated gig, algae was doing it's thing, (even if it's shocked from the dark closet), but couldn't transport it inside due to a lack of a structural "pump", (or low flow) or undersized pump? or a "stuffy nose" from a "cold it caught in the truck container in transit"? PH differences and hot spots internally? I still believe there's something structural that make them different. Maybe their "lungs" aren't as developed as other anemones, and that's why they do well in crashing turbulent areas, surrounded by oxygen producing plants. (Run a marathon, and you'll be panting too! Any healthy gig can sit idle for a little while with low flow, but we're talking about one that just journeyed through the slums breathing smog to get to it's new destination, and may be panting! "I'm seeing stars" it says, if it could talk....). Any chance the zoo in gigs USES oxygen, instead of producing it, like other types of algae? Possible LOW internal PH doing damage? I see gigs that look like they should make it, yet the go south. Then I see gigs that look like there's no chance, then they come back. I agree gigs come in all different stages of conditions. I disagree with gigs being able to take strong light before they're adapted to the water AND flow, and flow is a whole other topic, flow can make a HUGE difference. I was able to deflate my gigs at will, by cranking the light up too high, on command. Every time, until they were acclimated. Could be because I use (24) 3 watt cree LED's 2" over a 10 gallon, which can grow sps with ease (I dim them all the way down to start, to 0, and increase it as long as the gig shows improvement, slowly. This one has to be watched.). IME, light can deflate a gig so fast, but every gig's different, so one will say one thing, another will contradict. I also believe one may not see the damage of too much light, for a day or two. I've also noticed lately, every time I clean out my overgrowth of algae, I have one little purple gig that seems to get lighter. Then a couple days later, it darkens up again. Clean algae, repeat. Same with my mertens. I clean my fuge, it looks like it's P.O'd for a couple days, until it gets thick again. Anyone have an ORP and a gig, and can try a couple tests, how cleaning the fuge tank affects it? Just a hunch.
Inside my gig tank, the mp40's are cranked up and the gigs in the middle are getting BLASTED with flow, plastered to the rocks, but turn it down and the middle gigs come out a little more (look nicer), but the ones on the end seem to stretch up looking for more flow (and don't have as nice/sharp of ruffles). Flow can be hard to get right too.
IMO, water for all, should be like this: Get this ONE thing out of the equation of mystery, so one can focus on other things like flow and light, both of which can be a guessing game with a new gig. We all think our water is perfect, and some use DT water with success, but get rid of this one POSSIBLE variable, and one can focus on the other critical things they can attempt to control. It's like trying to receive a spinning basketball. You can only receive it and not drop it, if you get it just in the right spot, just the right tilt, it's got the right speed, just the right wobble, and can control where and how it's spinning. You get any of that wrong, you drop it.
Eliminate water out of the questionable equation, that's easy enough to do. It's really pretty evident they come in, needing a purge, and a couple changes may not be enough. What IF some came in, ONLY needed a good purge? I think this is a very real possibility. However, I did medicate every gig I have, keeping multiples isn't worth a risk to me.
Make water in (2) 5 gallon buckets.
mj1200 in each bucket. RO made same day.
Heat at first, then unplug heater. The mj will keep (did mine) at 83 degrees on it's own.
Add airstone. In both tank and 5 gallon buckets.
Age 24 hours.
Change 100% every 24 hours, then make tomorrows water.
IMO, fresh arrivals need a good internal purging. Some require meds, but IMO, I think a more realistic problem is the lack of purging in the beginning coupled with inconsistent variables in the water/flow/light ("AGAIN YOU JERK? I'VE BEEN REEFING FOR THE LAST CENTURY, MY WATER IS PERFECT!") I know...... I feel your pain....
If water is consistently made the SAME way, EVERY day, at the same time, it should be very stable, from day to day. Anyone have a water softener that goes off at night? Sure, it closes off to the rest of the house, but it's mechanical... ALL mechanicals can fail, or at least leak. (I'm a nerd, I disconnect my softener while needing water every day, I'm on a well). I can make 50 gallons at once and pull off, but I don't. I feel the same way, "You can't tell me what to do, I've been reefing for decades! MY water is PERFECT." I understand... Change water every day, same time. Suck out all floaties. Making water this way, can eliminate water out of the total picture. And, I'll tie back to my opening... It's more than just meds in water... Main goal, inflated 100% of the time. NO exceptions. Yes, I run my tank like a dictator. Make water a non-issue, then try to get to that balancing ball, lights and flow.
Best of luck Dave, I hope you can figure out how to keep it inflated. One last opinion of mine, NO FOOD until it's stable, and begins to color up. Another of my inconsistent and differing opinions. I'm sorry, I've said too much.
asudavew
Active member
Wow Taylor. Thanks for taking the time to help.
I make my water 40 gallons at a time. So I use it over 4-5 days.
And I make RO WATER way ahead of time. So I think I will try your suggestion and at least attempt to remove one variable.
I was using DT water for daily changes.
And then adding the new water back to my tank.
I make my water 40 gallons at a time. So I use it over 4-5 days.
And I make RO WATER way ahead of time. So I think I will try your suggestion and at least attempt to remove one variable.
I was using DT water for daily changes.
And then adding the new water back to my tank.
OrionN
Moved on
I recently got 3 Gigantea from Petco. Today is the third day that I am treating them with Septra. I used Radion over a 20 gal and naturally it was too much for them so I change to the 10K flood LED (30W) that I have always used for HT in the past. It does help to keep sick Gig from getting too much light.
IMO, it is very possible that we OD our anemones on Cipro when we use 500 mg for 10 gal. This can cause bleaching. Use 250 mg for the 10 gal.
Septra the dose I use is 160/800 per 10 gal. Both of these dose seem not to bleach the anemone at least completely. They recovered very quickly once healthy and back in DT.
Flow wise, it seem that under flow is OK as long as there are some flow IME.
Best of luck Dave. It seem that if they don't improved and got infection control by 7-10 days, they will not do well.
IMO, it is very possible that we OD our anemones on Cipro when we use 500 mg for 10 gal. This can cause bleaching. Use 250 mg for the 10 gal.
Septra the dose I use is 160/800 per 10 gal. Both of these dose seem not to bleach the anemone at least completely. They recovered very quickly once healthy and back in DT.
Flow wise, it seem that under flow is OK as long as there are some flow IME.
Best of luck Dave. It seem that if they don't improved and got infection control by 7-10 days, they will not do well.
asudavew
Active member
Oh not at all Taylor!
I appreciate the time you took to write it all.
I appreciate all the help I have received.
So far, the gig continues to shrink.
I started it back on Cipro Sunday..
But I don't think it will live much longer...
After this go around. I'm going to take a time out and focus on creating an anemone tank. With very few fish. Mostly clowns.
While my water in my DT test fine with no nitrates, great ph, calcium, dk.
I do have a lot of fish in my display and I wonder if water quality is the problem. I do feed heavy.
I have another tank sitting in my garage that I have been working on... so I think I will use it for the anemone tank. I have the bean overflow installed and its plumbed. It's been running with plain water for about a month. I have sand, dry, rock, and all the equipment.
So I need to set it up, cycle it, and let it run for a while with maybe a goby and blenny. Until then.. a year or so. I will just watch, read, and learn.
I do have a red Haddoni on the radar though...
But they are easier to keep IMHO.
Thanks for all the help everyone! :thumbsup:
asudavew
Active member
I will remember next time.. bleaching seems to make it very hard for the animal to recover.
Good luck with the 3. If you get them healthy and need to get rid of one, I am just up the road.
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