Dead seahorses, everyone else was happy

[Bonnie LI NY]

Hello, i am new to this forum and new to my saltwater tank. I have a 110 & 150g freshwater.
I posted this, or something very close to it on the newbie thread. They all suggested to post it here, so here goes.
Most everyone has been very kind and helpful. Thank you.
I have a 45h gal with eheim 350 w adjustable flow. I used live sand and cycled the tank for 2 weeks. (i now know this was stupid and was properly chastized!!!) I did a considerable amount of homework and ended up more confused than when I started. Wish I would have found this site first.

I tested the water and so did my LFS, right before I brought the ponies home.
Salinity 1.022, nitrites=0 ammonia =0 ph = 8.0 Temp 78. I bought 6 adult H.Kuda tank raised, also bought a small Xenia glauca and some othe 2inch piece of coral w "neon green eyes" that plays well w ponies.
I put the ponies in they seemed happy they ate heartily twice, frozen mysis, it was all consumed, there wasn't a bunch of stuff floating on the bottom.
I read all about the wild caught and pen raised that won't eat frozen food, they all ate.
When I woke up there were 2 dead,:deadhorse: and the other 4 were in visible distress. All of this in @12 hours.
I bagged up the survivors and brought them back to LFS. The corals seem to be fine.
Three days after armageddon my husband bought 2 tiny (1 inch) clowns. The clowns are perfect.
Besides the tank not being cycled for months.... Go ahead beat me over and about the head. Is there anything else???
Went to see my ponies a week later @ LFS the guy who works there said they had a bacterial infection. Their skin looked like it was sloughing off, it almost looked like a scald of some kind. Is that possible?
Owner of LFS says he will give me 6 more ponies in a month, after tank has a chance to cycle some more. Is this a bad idea?
I felt horrible killing those poor beautiful creatures. I do NOT WANT A REPEAT. Should I wait another 5 months?? I am sending the water out to an outside lab that tests for an assortment of things. i will post results when I get them. Please advise what would be best for the ponies and me.
Thank you for your time and consideration. Bonnie

 

[rayjay]

Most likely the stock is Asian supplied tank raised. They are usually grown in large cement tanks using ocean water that is not treated and filtered for pathogens. Quality of most tank raised is questionable to terrible.
True captive bred will come from breeders using either salt water mix, like I.O., or ocean water that they do properly treat and filter for pathogens.
If the seahorses truly were suffering from a bacteria malaise that cause death and distress then it occurred in the LFS tanks or even before.
Also, IME, bacterial problems causing those problems are usually evident to the eye as it later showed, but I've never had it cause death before that.
As you already know, adding them so soon didn't help matters and a good LFS wouldn't have sold them to you at that point.
Most LFS's think they know a lot about seahorse keeping but in fact, don't know much.
Unfortunately, with those clowns in there, placing seahorses in the tank will make the seahorse keeping problematic as the clowns grow and become aggressive adults.
Your tank is only really suitable for four seahorses though.
For some more reading on basics you can read the LINKS at the bottom of My THoughts on Seahorse Keeping

 

[tjdouglas]

Dear Bonnie,

I am sorry to hear about your losses. I hate when I lose a seahorse too.

I would guess that adding so many seahorses to a small, new tank at one time could have overwhelmed your fledgling biological filtration. The bacteria that had developed in two weeks was not enough to deal with your new additions. In other words, even though your ammonia tested at zero before adding the seahorses, it probably climbed very quickly within a few hours after adding the seahorses, especially since they were eating well and probably defecating. Your new tank would not yet have enough bacteria developed to handle the waste of all of these seahorses (and like Rayjay said, you really do not want to keep so many seahorses in that size tank even when the biological filter is more mature).

I would guess that since the deaths happened in such a short time that they suffered from ammonia poisoning. The fact that the survivors developed a bacterial infection may have been coincidence, or due to improper care by your LFS, or possibly a pre-existing condition that they had before you bought them. But my bet would be what caused them to die within 12 hours of bringing them home was an ammonia spike.

Have you tried adding a good bacterial agent to help your tank cycle and develop good, nitrifying bacteria that will reduce the chance of ammonia spikes? Sanolife MIC-F is often considered to be a very good one around here. But if you cannot get it, there are a lot of other bacterial products out there aimed at helping you increase the nitrifying bacteria in your tank.

I am glad to hear that the clowns are doing well. That is a good sign. But clowns are generally tougher than seahorses. I will wait a few months before trying any seahorses again. And maybe just try two initially.

 

[Mr. Bill]

Most likely the stock is Asian supplied tank raised. They are usually grown in large cement tanks using ocean water that is not treated and filtered for pathogens. Quality of most tank raised is questionable to terrible.
True captive bred will come from breeders using either salt water mix, like I.O., or ocean water that they do properly treat and filter for pathogens.
If the seahorses truly were suffering from a bacteria malaise that cause death and distress then it occurred in the LFS tanks or even before.
Also, IME, bacterial problems causing those problems are usually evident to the eye as it later showed, but I've never had it cause death before that.
As you already know, adding them so soon didn't help matters and a good LFS wouldn't have sold them to you at that point.
Most LFS's think they know a lot about seahorse keeping but in fact, don't know much.
Unfortunately, with those clowns in there, placing seahorses in the tank will make the seahorse keeping problematic as the clowns grow and become aggressive adults.
Your tank is only really suitable for four seahorses though.
For some more reading on basics you can read the LINKS at the bottom of My THoughts on Seahorse Keeping

Agreed. Just a couple of points to add:

1) Your SG is a little low. I dispute any notion that an SG lower than that of NSW is better for anything from the ocean. Everything has evolved for hundreds of thousands to millions of years in NSW. NSW SG is 1.0265.

2) Along with aggression, the Clowns will also compete for food, and they're much faster than Seahorses.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, and good luck.

 

[mtc1966]

skimmed through quick and not sure if this was mentioned but clowns will out compete the seahorses for food . I would return them to in favor of a couple of goby's

 

[Bonnie LI NY]

Thanks everybody for you kind words and sage advice.
This mornings disaster de jour, was a dead clown, and the xenia glauca seems wilty. I was @ the LFS yesterday and The water tested ok except for the nitrites being high. 0.50. I have been adding the bio spira as directed.
I am so frustrated, I feel horrible killing these poor creatures. I am going back to LFS today w more water to be tested. Should I do a large water change?? I bought the ready made sea water, its 4 1/2 gal container. That would be 10% . Your thoughts? Thanks!

 

[Fretfreak13]

I would get your own test kits, Bonnie. Its well worth it. Do you know what brand the LFS is using to test your water? There are some crappy, cheap ones out there and most LFS use them on customer water because...well...they're cheap! However, I guarantee on their own tanks they use the more expensive, more accurate ones.

Sorry for your losses. I just lost my first seahorse a few weeks and I'm breaking down the TANK cause I can't stand looking at it without her. Keep strong, carry on.

 

[kudagirl]

Thanks everybody for you kind words and sage advice.
This mornings disaster de jour, was a dead clown, and the xenia glauca seems wilty. I was @ the LFS yesterday and The water tested ok except for the nitrites being high. 0.50. I have been adding the bio spira as directed.
I am so frustrated, I feel horrible killing these poor creatures. I am going back to LFS today w more water to be tested. Should I do a large water change?? I bought the ready made sea water, its 4 1/2 gal container. That would be 10% . Your thoughts? Thanks!

Hi,
Sorry for the lost of your sh and your clown.

Your water is only ok when all the readings are 0.00.As you now know you must cycle your tank it may take six-eight weeks maybe longer,but put things in your tank slowly,maybe one pair of sh wait a week or so then add somethink else.

If you add fish too quickly then thats when the problems start.

 

[Northside Reef]

I am real new to this arena myself, but I would agree with what most have said about the biological filtration just not being mature enough.

I really want to commend you on one thing though. Getting those seahorses out of that tank as soon as you saw a problem. So many people try to fix the problem on the fly. It just can't be done. Well done in keeping those seahorses well being in mind and doing the right thing.

 

[namxas]

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere, but 78*F is too warm for tropical species SH...anything above 75*F results in much higher bacterial counts in a captive system, and SH are very sensitive to bacterial infections.

Just something for the future to keep in mind...

 

[tjdouglas]

Dear Bonnie,

I am sorry to hear about the clown.

The high nitrites means your tank is still going through the bacterial cycling process (still setting up the biological filter). The first phase of the cycle results in high ammonia levels. The second phase results in high nitrites. Either of these, even in very small amounts, will kill your fish, corals, etc. Both ammonia and nitrites need to be at zero. I would recommend that your start adding some kind of bacterial cycling agent to help this process mature. Many kinds of nitrifying bacterias are sold. I use Sanolife MIC-F that I order online, but your LFS should have something in stock. It often takes a good 30 days for this process to even start to mature enough to sustain the keeping of fish or corals in your tank.

 

[rayjay]

Actually tj, I don't believe the Sano mic F is the type of bacteria that is responsible for the processing of ammonia wastes.
There are a few types out there that do from what I've read, but I've not used any in my 19yrs of reefing.
I do use the sano in my seahorse tanks, but it's basically to be adding a competing bacteria to the tank that hopefully outcompetes the nasties like vibrio species.

 

[Bonnie LI NY]

I can't thank you all enough for your kind words of wisdom. I have all of my own test kits, I just have the LFS double check.
I went there today and LFS gave me @ 5 lbs of sand from one of their tanks. I have been adding Bio Spira as directed, and did a 10% water change. The xenia that looked wilty yesterday looks much happier today.
All of my homework all points to one common denominator..... Time for the tank to properly cycle. I will be thrilled not to have any more deaths. I would love to have seahorses, but I cant emotionally go through that again. I need to have the water perfect, and the ponies have a chance. Thsnks again. Bonnie

 

[tjdouglas]

Dear Rayjay,
Thanks for the clarification on the Sanolife Mic-F. I thought it was a nitrifying bacteria. I had no idea it was not!

 

[Bonnie LI NY]

Hello again, i was looking @ the xenia today and it looks like he's got some kind of rot going on. The water is much more stable. I jacked up the salinity to 1.024, the amonia is =0 the Nitrites are coming down nicely to .25. The PH is 8.1, i am going to bump it up slowly to 8.2 Can anyone give me advice as to how much longer it will be before it is stable to introduce something else? Not the ponies maybe a duster or a piece if coral.
I was also wondering when or if the tank will be seahorse ready? I dont want to push it but I have no clue as to when would be a proper time.
I was going to try and add only 2 at a time. The tank has been cycling for 1 month so far. I know I have a long way buy how long would be best.
Thank you all again for you words of wisdom.

 

[rayjay]

I'm sorry but there is no way to determine the end point of a cycle before it happens.
Unfortunately your problems stem from the "too soon" syndrome.
Once the ammonia and nitrites are BOTH at zero for at least a day, then you can challenge the system by adding ammonia to bring the level up to at least 1ppm ammonia, higher, depending on what you plan to add at completion of the cycle.
If the ammonia and nitrite both go to zero overnight, then the cycle is complete usually, and is then safe to add.

 

[timinnl]

Owner of LFS says he will give me 6 more ponies in a month, after tank has a chance to cycle some more. Is this a bad idea?
I felt horrible killing those poor beautiful creatures. I do NOT WANT A REPEAT. Should I wait another 5 months?? I am sending the water out to an outside lab that tests for an assortment of things. i will post results when I get them. Please advise what would be best for the ponies and me.
Thank you for your time and consideration. Bonnie

Greetings from Amsterdam Bonnie,

If possible consider getting true captive bred ones from seahorsesource instead of the ones from your LFS. What size were the ones you had? The tank raised/tank bred kuda comes in with a host of problems that you need to address while they are in a quarantine tank before adding them to the display tank.

I would consider using Fritz Zyme Turbo Start 900 to help cycle your tank. I would allow the tank to go through a Diatom bloom and hair algae stage (If you get hair algae.) before considering adding the seahorses to it. While the tank might be cycled, it hasn't had a chance to balance itself out yet. that takes a little more time.

For that size tank, I would suggest no more than 2 pairs. What equipment are you using and what is the turnover rate of the tank?

Sanolife Mic-F is a very good product to use. It contains several strains of bacillus bacteria that helps consume the organic/inorganic matter in the tank and they are in direct competition with bacteria we consider bad or disease causing. You can use the product directly in the tank or you could gut load it into live artemia and feed it to the seahorses. By feeding them the gutloaded artemia, you are changing the flora & fauna inside their system.

Do you have a wish list of what you want to keep with them fish and coral wise? This is a good time to ask for feedback and suggestions.

Lastly, don't beat yourself up too much now, I think we all been there and one point or another keeping seahorses, the trick is to learn from the mistakes and not repeat it.

Kind Regards,

Tim

 

[MechEngineer]

+1 on no Clowns with Seahorses. Bought 2 "mini" Clowns (less than a half inch long) and just over a year later the larger one got over 2 inches long and harassed my seahorses & stole food right in front of them (since gave the pair to my bro & only seahorses).

 

[WallysWorld]

Bonnie,

Ammonia killed the 2 and stressed the remaining horses. I have never seen a horse die that didn't show some signs of bacteria.
I suggest getting some live rock(quality) at least 10lbs to help your cycle.
All the comment in this thread will disagree but having 2 clowns may not be the end of the world. I have 2 pair of clowns in with my seahorses with no problem. Unless the clowns have eggs they could careless about a seahorse drifting by. Plus my clowns like most stay in one particular part of the tank never really venturing anywhere else. Just make sure the horse get fed at least 3 times a day if possible.

Also as stated in this thread use some cycling bacteria to move your cycle along. Frequent water changes in the beginning of cycle (10%).

NOTE: Make sure you are NOT adding saltwater as makeup water. salt doesn't evaporate!
I've seen two people recently do this and kill everything in the tank, like the dead sea.

Good luck and welcome!

I'm on long Island too so if you need anything feel free...

 

[Bonnie LI NY]

Hey Wally, thanks for the info. Things are starting to settle down a bit w the tank.
Someone named Reef girl gave me a great article that she has put together. (thanks Reef girl) i think I am going to pass on the offer of LFS and start out in @6 mos w (A) pair of something, hopefully a little hardy..... Suggestions most welcome here..... From seahorse sourse.
I think between me being wet behind the ears, the tank raised, and a too hot temp.and dumping 6 of them in at once..... We had the perfect storm to kill the critters. We have a fan worm that seems happy and the xenia doesn' t look miserable any more. TIME!!! Thanks all for the kind sage words
Wally where on the island? You w Okenos... Cresli???? Where'd you get to play w the turtle?? Best regards Bonnie