Designer clowns... Why?

There is no need to "produce" mutations in clownfish. The variation in color patterned is just selective breeding from a small number of wild caught clowns with unusual color patterns. Clowns only take about 6 months to reach breeding age and have 200 to 1000 babies every two weeks. It doesn't take very long to produce a lot of clowns with varied white color. Most of the "varieties" in the picture come from the variety in the same batch of babies.
There are no mutagens being used, just selective breeding and environmental manipulation. Mis-bars are very common when the water in your grow-out tanks is not clean. Some people have discovered how to manipulate that to produce no-bar clowns. Everything else is just selective breeding.

To quote another member, "Just because you say it is so doesn't make it true."

There have been a lot of variety radiations in fish in the past . My memory goes back to fancy guppies.

Because of the work involved with crossing and raising all the fish, the job was done by a large number of dedicated individuals.

I don't see any local breeders producing any kind of "designer fish." All the designer fish come from one place. Kind of like Monsanto and corn.

If I were going to "design" fish, clowns are perfect. They produce a large number of eggs that can be easily exposed to a mutagenic chemical. The eggs hatch within a couple of weeks and within 2-3 months you can see which individuals are likely candidates for inbreeding. You can pass generations a lot faster than corn so you can design fish faster than corn.

Naturally if I found a good mutating agent, I wouldn't tell any body about it.

All this is possible and easy to do. It is a fast track to a large number of "designer" fish.
 
To quote another member, "Just because you say it is so doesn't make it true."

There have been a lot of variety radiations in fish in the past . My memory goes back to fancy guppies.

Because of the work involved with crossing and raising all the fish, the job was done by a large number of dedicated individuals.

I don't see any local breeders producing any kind of "designer fish." All the designer fish come from one place. Kind of like Monsanto and corn.

If I were going to "design" fish, clowns are perfect. They produce a large number of eggs that can be easily exposed to a mutagenic chemical. The eggs hatch within a couple of weeks and within 2-3 months you can see which individuals are likely candidates for inbreeding. You can pass generations a lot faster than corn so you can design fish faster than corn.

Naturally if I found a good mutating agent, I wouldn't tell any body about it.

All this is possible and easy to do. It is a fast track to a large number of "designer" fish.

Sorry, but you really have no idea of the history of designer clownfish. The reason that most of them come from just a few hatcheries is because ORA purchased the original wild caught "picasso" clownfish and introduced it to their breeding program. Nearly all the designer clowns out there can trace their lineage back to this one original picasso. ORA is not the only hatchery that produces designer clowns, there are several that produce enough clowns to be considered commercial clown breeders, but they are simply starting with fish that were "designer" clowns purchased from someone else.

There was also a case where someone crossed an ocellaris with a percula and that threw some unusual colors (I believe these were the original snowflakes) as well.

All you need to produce designer clownfish is to purchase a pair of designer clowns or put together your own mixed pair. If your local breeders aren't producing designer clowns, its because they don't have any to start with. If they are waiting for their wild-type clowns to throw a designer clown all of a sudden, they are going to have a long wait. The large hatcheries all started with either wild caught fish with unusual patterns or they purchased TR fish from designer lines. The reason they dominate is because they have large facilities that produce thousands of fish. They have contracts with most of the national wholesalers and can under sell the local breeders.

Local breeders probably have a better chance by producing wild type fish because they don't have as much competition with the large hatcheries.

There is absolutely no evidence that anyone is using mutagens to produce designer clowns, even though it may be theoretically possible.

My story is chronicled here in the archives of Reef Central. You were not here when all of this was going on, so you have no way of knowing, but please don't come in a state things that you made up in your head (when it comes to designer clowns) and expect them to be taken as fact.

ORA is not Monsanto. ORA can't even consistently produce fish that are free of defects caused by substandard husbandry.
 
:rolleyes::rolleyes:To many super-hero movies and we get adults who thinks this.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yes feed them mercury. Zap them with W rays and expose them to Raytonium....

This has nothing to do with superhero movies. It is done in labs all of them time, including the one at our university.
 
1. I know that genes come in pairs. When I used the pseudonym Xxx (a company name) I did so because I didn't want the besmirch the reputation of a company that produces a gazillion designer clowns for big money.

2. What you say is absolutely true. But that is the same process you have to go through with a natural or chemically induced mutation.

3. Chemically induced gene mutations are common and easy to produce.

4. If I were Monsanto or Xxx I would be using the process to make a bunch of new corn or clown fish strains.

I'm not sure why you feel that clown fish are sacred and couldn't possibly be GMOed the same way as corn?


This!
 
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From Wikipedia. I don't see any information about human induced mutagen to cause mutation resulting in sweet corn.
While Wikipedia not always 100% correct, I find that they are fairly reliable.



History

Sweet corn occurs as a spontaneous mutation in field corn and was grown by several Native American tribes. The Iroquois gave the first recorded sweet corn (called 'Papoon') to European settlers in 1779.<sup id="cite_ref-RJSch_2-0" class="reference">[2]</sup> It soon became a popular food in southern and central regions of the United States.



Young sweet corn


Open pollinated cultivars of white sweet corn started to become widely available in the United States in the 19th century. Two of the most enduring cultivars, still available today, are 'Country Gentleman' (a Shoepeg corn with small kernels in irregular rows) and 'Stowell's Evergreen'.
Sweet corn production in the 20th century was influenced by the following key developments:

  • hybridization allowed for more uniform maturity, improved quality and disease resistance
    • In 1933 'Golden Cross Bantam' was released. It is significant for being the first successful single-cross hybrid and the first specifically developed for disease resistance (Stewart's wilt in this case).<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference">[3]</sup>
  • identification of the separate gene mutations responsible for sweetness in corn and the ability to breed cultivars based on these characteristics:
    • su (normal sugary)
    • se (sugary enhanced, originally called Everlasting Heritage)
    • sh2 (shrunken-2)<sup id="cite_ref-DLLarson_4-0" class="reference">[4]</sup>
There are currently hundreds of cultivars, with more constantly being developed.
Anatomy



The same rows of corn 41 days later at maturity.


The fruit of the sweet corn plant is the corn kernel, a type of fruit called a caryopsis. The ear is a collection of kernels on the cob. Because corn is a monocot, there is always an even number of rows of kernels.<sup class="noprint Inline-Template" style="white-space:nowrap;">[further explanation needed]</sup> The ear is covered by tightly wrapped leaves called the husk. Silk is the name for the pistillate flowers, which emerge from the husk. The husk and silk are removed by hand, before boiling but not necessarily before roasting, in a process called husking or shucking.
Consumption

In most of Latin America, sweet corn is traditionally eaten with beans; each plant is deficient in an essential amino acid that happens to be abundant in the other, so together sweet corn and beans form a protein-complete meal.<sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference">[5]</sup> In Brazil, sweet corn cut off from the cobs is generally eaten with peas (where this combination, given the practicality of steamed canned grains in an urban diet, is a frequent addition to diverse meals such as salads, stews, seasoned white rice, risottos, soups, pasta, and, most famously, whole sausage hot dogs).
Similarly, sweet corn in Indonesia is traditionally ground or soaked with milk, which makes available the B vitamin niacin in the corn, the absence of which would otherwise lead to pellagra; in Brazil, a combination of ground sweet corn and milk is also the basis of various well-known dishes, such as pamonha and the pudding-like dessert curau, while sweet corn eaten directly off the cobs tends to be served with butter.
The kernels are boiled or steamed. In Europe, China, Korea, Japan and India, they are often used as a pizza topping, or in salads. Corn on the cob is a sweet corn cob that has been boiled, steamed, or grilled whole; the kernels are then eaten directly off the cob or cut off. Creamed corn is sweet corn served in a milk or cream sauce. Sweet corn can also be eaten as baby corn.
In the United States, sweet corn is eaten as a steamed vegetable, or on the cob, usually served with butter and salt. It can be found in Tex-Mex cooking in chili, tacos, and salads. When corn is mixed with Lima beans it is called Succotash.
If left to dry on the plant, kernels may be taken off the cob and cooked in oil where, unlike popcorn, they expand to about double the original kernel size and are often called corn nuts. A soup may also be made from the plant, called sweet corn soup.
Health benefits



Overripe sweet corn


Cooked sweet corn increases levels of ferulic acid, which has anti-cancer properties. <sup id="cite_ref-6" class="reference">[6]</sup>
Cultivars

Main article: List of sweetcorn varieties
Open pollinated (non-hybrid) corn has largely been replaced in the commercial market by sweeter, earlier hybrids, which also have the advantage of maintaining their sweet flavor longer. Su cultivars are best when cooked within 30 minutes of harvest. Despite their short storage life, many open pollinated cultivars such as 'Golden Bantam' remain popular for home gardeners and specialty markets, or are marketed as heirloom seeds. Although less sweet, they are often described as more tender and flavorful than hybrids.
Genetics

Early cultivars, including those used by Native Americans, were the result of the mutant su ("sugary") allele.<sup id="cite_ref-RJSch_2-1" class="reference">[2]</sup> They contain about 5–10% sugar by weight.
Supersweet corn are cultivars of sweet corn which produce higher than normal levels of sugar developed by University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign professor John Laughnan.<sup id="cite_ref-DLLarson_4-1" class="reference">[4]</sup> He was investigating two specific genes in sweet corn, one of which, the sh2 gene, caused the corn to shrivel when dry. After further investigation Laughnan discovered that the endosperm of sh2 sweet corn kernels store less starch and from 4 to 10 times more sugar than normal su sweet corn. He published his findings in 1953, disclosing the advantages of growing supersweet sweet corn, but many corn breeders lacked enthusiasm for the new supersweet corn. Illinois Foundation Seeds Inc. was the first seed company to release a supersweet corn and it was called 'Illini Xtra Sweet', but widespread use of supersweet hybrids did not occur until the early 1980s. The popularity of supersweet corn rose due to its long shelf life and large sugar content when compared to conventional sweet corn. This has allowed the long-distance shipping of sweet corn and has enabled manufacturers to can sweet corn without adding extra sugar or salt.



Cut White Sweet Corn


The third gene mutation to be discovered is the se or "sugary enhanced" allele, responsible for so-called "Everlasting Heritage" cultivars, such as 'Kandy Korn'. Cultivars with the se alleles have a longer storage life and contain 12–20% sugar compared to su cultivars.
All of the alleles responsible for sweet corn are recessive, so it must be isolated from other corn, such as field corn and popcorn, that release pollen at the same time; the endosperm develops from genes from both parents, and heterozygous kernels will be tough and starchy. The se and su alleles do not need to be isolated from each other. However supersweet cultivars containing the sh2 allele must be grown in isolation from other cultivars to avoid cross-pollination and resulting starchiness, either in space (various sources quote minimum quarantine distances from 100 to 400 feet or 30 to 120 m) or in time (i.e., the supersweet corn does not pollinate at the same time as other corn in nearby fields).
Modern breeding methods have also introduced cultivars incorporating multiple gene types:

  • sy (for synergistic) adds the sh2 gene to some kernels (usually 25%) on the same cob as a se base (either homozygous or heterozygous)
  • augmented sh2 adds the se and su gene to a sh2 parent
Often seed producers of the sy and augmented sh2 types will use brand names or trademarks to distinguish these cultivars instead of mentioning the genetics behind them. Generally these brands or trademarks will offer a choice of white, bi-color and yellow cultivars which otherwise have very similar characteristics.
 
Here are a bunch of clown mutations:
Regarding Ocellaris and Percula, the poster of ORA there only have three mutations, the snowflakes, Picasso and Da Vicci. Lack of white is a result of environment, not genetic. That is why those clowns are so bad looking.
I don't know where the Da Vinci come from and too lazy to search, but Snowflakes and Picasso were originated from natural wild caught clownfish.

Ray,
When you say that mutagens are used to produce designer clowns you got to prepare to show proof of it. Nothing you posted so far provide this proof.

Not all genes come in pairs though . . .
microlady,
Most living cell have two sets of chromosomes (diploid). Most genes are inherit on two alleles. One allele on each chromosome. That is why I said that they are pairs of alleles. There are genes that have multiple alleles, however for each cell there are only two alleles. An example of this is the A/B/O blood type in human as mentioned in my post earlier.

There are simple phenotypes that are expression of single gene, then there are complex traits that are results of multiple genes and/or environmental interaction with genes.

Then there are cells or even whole organisms that are haploid or polyploids.

Then there are sex chromosomes that do not truly have pairs (as in the human male).

All of these are exceptions (there are always exception in life), but on a whole, genes are inherited in pairs of alleles.
 
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There have been a lot of variety radiations in fish in the past . My memory goes back to fancy guppies.

.......Kind of like Monsanto and corn.

........
Naturally if I found a good mutating agent, I wouldn't tell any body about it. ..........
There are plenty of chemical that are mutagen. They are all chemical that react with DNA and cause error in replication of the DNA. They are all very toxic too. Just think of all the two headed babies that your are going to produce if you not careful with these agents.

There is absolutely no proof that fancy guppies are produced from radiating the wild type guppies.

There is absolutely no proof that Sweet corns were produced by mutagen action on natural corns. Multiple alleles and genes responsible for sweet corn have been work out. Essentially the cell just don't convert all the sugar (sweet) into starch (not sweet).

The technology of cut DNA at a particular region and insert a gene in there are fairly new technology in the last 20 years or so. (I know I got to be old when I think 20 year old technology is new). The origin of this is technology have to do with virus insert it's genes into the host to use the host cellular mechanism to produce more virus. That is how they produce glow fish, by insert jelly fish color genes into albino Tetra. Once they have a pair, they then reproduce the pair.

I did not read much about Monsanto, but I am sure their revenue is in term of Billions of dollars instead of a handful of thousand here and there.

This has nothing to do with superhero movies. It is done in labs all of them time, including the one at our university.
Bite by a Radioactive Spider and become Spideman.
Drowned in radioactive sludge and become Cat woman.
Zapped by electricity and become the Flash
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BTW, I did not think watching stupid movies cause raythepilot or microlady to be illogical like they are. I was just trying to be funny.
 
Wow... I truly don't know what to believe. I understand the history of "designer" clowns such as the Picasso, and simply assumed that the newer "designers" originated from wild caught specimens, such as the lightning maroon. However, I can't explain how "juggalos" or "peacekeeper" maroon clowns are produced. Well, maybe I can...

Apparently the juggalos are derived from a DaVinci clown, so that makes sense to me, but the folks breeding the peacekeepers are very secretive about their process. Could there be something else going on other than a wild caught specimen and selective breeding? Usually when we see a new type of wild caught clown caught, someone sees it and reports on it. But I've never seen an article on a wild peacekeeper.

Here's some information about the peacekeeper from another website that I can't link to:

"The Peace Keeper Maroon Clownfish is actually a gold stripe maroon (GSM) that was derived from a single pair of F1 wild type parents which showed only the slightest aberration to the middle bar. Captive Bred only has one pair producing the Peace Keeper strain and out of thousands of offspring so far, only 12 individual show the hyper unique, chainlink-style patterning to the bars."

So, does this mean they're just like the other "designers" or do we think someone is adding some special sauce to the tank water? If so, you'd expect to see a lot more than just 12 babies.
 
I have no clue about peacekeepers, all i know is that they're insanely rare and expensive.
The black and white da Vincis are Darwin and da vinci. The da vinci line is basically a Wyoming white but not all white, kinda like a platinum vs a Picasso.
Original snowflakes were just a random mutation from a regular Ocellaris pair.
Also, no one is chemically inserting genes into clowns or anything like that, new clown varieties are still being made by crossing and finding random mutations.
 
Perhaps in due time we can see proper husbandry techniques. With many other species of domestic husbandry, we track genomes by stock and lineage. We do it with horses, cattle, dogs and cats.

Shoot, knowing a few Ichthyologists myself I brought up this discussion over lunch to one of them. She concluded that designer clownfish are currently falling into an older morpho-merisitic approach to classify a certain trait. What intrigued her, was if distribution would follow the more recent genetics-based classifications under a newer Molecular Model.

Federal Fish and Wildlife officials have adopted the newer Molecular Model for years now because there was heated debate over various Salmonidae species to be re-introduced on the "West Slope" of the Rockies. It turns out that nearly 44% of certain trout were misclassified using morpho-meristic identification.

Perhaps some sort of DNA or responsible best practices need to be applied to large farm operations to identifying lineage and to encourage diversity and healthy stock. Especially before culling large defects out due to inbreeding and poor husbandry.
 
I never knew this was such an interesting and multifaceted topic. I just don't like the odd clownfish and would like to see more of the variety that allow survival in the wild. The wild seems to bring out the best, even if it becomes more common.
 
Soon enough you will be able to design a clownfish through a web based paint program and they will make them for you. Lol.
 
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