Designer Fish

[Sardaukar]

I happened across a few small bumble bee groupers at an LFS today and got to thinking 'What if we could genetically engineer fish to stop their growth/development at a certain point?'. If you are unfamiliar with them, bumble bee groupers are neat fish that have a very attractive black and yellow mottled pattern, but that grow into drab 5 foot long monsters. If we could figure out a way to stop a fish's development at a certain point (such as a grouper that was permanently 6" or a koran angel that stayed as a 3 incher with juvie markings), without any other harm to the fish, would that be ethical? We already create clownfish that look nothing like you would find in nature, so is this any different?

 

[ackee]

Wouldn't it be neat if we could create tiny bears and gorillas, small enough to fit in your pocket? Maybe even tiny dolphins and whales. Cool.

Those strangely marked clown fishes are truly repulsive. Ages of evolutionary development producing unmatchable natural beauty, turned into ugly blobs. That there are people willing to pay serious money for these damaged creatures is not surprising, in a world of Jersey Shore MTV and paint-on-velvet .

 

[AquaKnight]

If the only concern was really only if people were 'designing fish,' and we could perfectly do it, then ya, I personally don't see an issue.

However for the foreseeable future I really don't think that's the case. We don't have to ability to just stop skeletal and muscular delevopment, but not say mental. For a longtime I'd fear we'd be dealing with 'freak fish' that have all sort of oddities, weird health problems, etc that I don't what to see, much less see for sale at fish stores.

Those clownfish, as I understand are obtained through selective breeding, with a bit of luck. They aren't engineered.

 

[Golden Angel]

Wouldn't it be neat if we could create tiny bears and gorillas, small enough to fit in your pocket? Maybe even tiny dolphins and whales. Cool.

Those strangely marked clown fishes are truly repulsive. Ages of evolutionary development producing unmatchable natural beauty, turned into ugly blobs. That there are people willing to pay serious money for these damaged creatures is not surprising, in a world of Jersey Shore MTV and paint-on-velvet .

+1. I hate man made fish. That's why freshwater bores me so much. Too much engineering.

 

[[17]shawn[17]]

However for the foreseeable future I really don't think that's the case. We don't have to ability to just stop skeletal and muscular delevopment, but not say mental.

the reality is that this technology is out there and being used, it is very possibe that in the near future we will see geneticly modified fish in out aquariums

 

[JHemdal]

There already ARE genetically modified fish - the Glo-Fish that are zebra danios with jellyfish DNA added so that they glow under certain lighting. IIRC, they cannot be sold in some countries, and at first, you could only get single sexes, so they wouldn't reproduce outside of the lab. They come in a variety of colors, red, green, pink and maybe some others.

Wasn't there a tiny horse in the news this week? That was done through long-term selective breeding....not a technique that lends itself well to marine species not currently being propagated.

I was approached by a commercial clownfish breeder back in the 1990's who was asking about uses of methyl testosterone in water to change the morphology of their clownfish fry. Obviously, I didn't help him, but "better fish" through chemistry has probably been used out there in cases other than the one I'm aware of - to color up baby discus prior to sale. I think that some of these designer clownfish may be development defects, not the result of selective breeding.


Jay

 

[wtac]

Taikong Corp (parent company of AZOO) also has a "Glo-Fish" variant using ricefish instead of danios. IIRC, they come in 5 different colors last I remember.

There aren't that many "engineered" fish in the FW trade, then again, it's how one perceives the "engineering" involved.

For example:

Line/selective breeding for:
- Color morphs, ie guppies, swordtails, albinism
- Physical morphs, ie, longfin neon tetra, angel/baloon ram

Cross hybridization followed line/selective breeding or further hybridization with a third+ species:
- flowerhorn and parrot cichlids

Physical manipulation:
- "painted" white skirt tetras and glassfish

Gene insertion:
- Zebra Danio "Glo-Fish" and Fluorescent (rice)FishTK-1 to 5

 

[JHemdal]

wtac,

Interesting point - the dyed/painted fish are just temporary changes to the fish's morphology, not the genotype. My example of the testosterone *seems* at first glance, to be more than that - but is it really? Once the fish are removed from the water treated with the testosterone, they slowly fade in color back to that of non-treated fish of the same age. The only difference is that the testosterone can (if applied improperly - in the wrong dose or at the wrong time) permenantly neuter female fish.
What about the possibility that some of these clownfish mutations (while permenant) are devlopmental, and not genetic? That, I guess, would be the same as somebody docking a doberman's tail to make it short. The genetics of the animal are the same, but it doesn't look like it ought to, based on its genetics.

Jay

 

[neptuneordavid]

Why not?I would love a 3" tang for my 40 breeder.
Man has been domesticating animals for centuries.But there has to be a profit.

 

[billsreef]

I was approached by a commercial clownfish breeder back in the 1990's who was asking about uses of methyl testosterone in water to change the morphology of their clownfish fry. Obviously, I didn't help him, but "better fish" through chemistry has probably been used out there in cases other than the one I'm aware of - to color up baby discus prior to sale.

There is a long history of use of hormones and other chemical treatments used to alter sex ratios in developing fish. In Dwarf Gouramis, the males are very colorful and sell for signifacanlty more money than the drab females. So fish farms use chemical means to alter the sex of the developing fish to get more males.

I think that some of these designer clownfish may be development defects, not the result of selective breeding.

In quite a few of the "designer" clownfish I think you are quite right. I look at most of them, and all I see are culls. Yet they sell for big $ for some reason Just the other day I was looking at some of Todd Gardner's baby clownfish and sea horses, all natural, well developed for the age, and absolutely beautiful just the way mother nature made them. I just can't see how anything else could be better.

 

[Nihoa]

with all the variety nature offers it just inst enough for some people. children grow up into uglier more expensive responsibilities too, hope they figure out how to inject that inconvience away.

 

[JennaH]

i would think that the side effects of designer breeds for fish to obtain a certain look would fall in line with the same kind of effect as in dogs right?

for example, yorkies selectively bred to be less than 4-5 lbs full grown are prone to a festival of genetic diseases/mutations. heart murmurs, liver shunts/blood bypass, undeveloped fontanelle, luxating patellae, retained deciduous teeth, etc..

the same kind of thing seen in pugs, frenchies, bostons bred for their characteristic flat face, commonly have teeth crowding, multiple rows of teeth, ones that don't grow in, breathing problems, skin fold dermatitis, undeveloped nares...

do you guys think the same effects could be with selectively bred fish? maybe they could be sterile, shorter life span.. etc?? i'm curious about this..

 

[loganbug3]

I believe that when you genetical alter fish in mass production it has serious consequences, and if somehow enough got onto the market, could they crowd out the original species?

That's different than altering the birth circumstances to change sex or look, within reasonable boundries isn't it?

 

[paraletho]

JennaH +1. My thoughts exactly if something breeds and produces a mutation that has a place or a niche in nature it survives and this is right. We torture those dogs for our own greed and entertainment this is not right. My sister-in laws Yorkie passes out from low blood sugar because it's metabolism is too high and its stomach too small. My neighbors Shitzu (spelling?) eye pops out every time it sneezes. I hope this is not the way of our hobby. Just so we can strut around because we have something rare or unusual that no one else has.

 

[GreshamH]

There already ARE genetically modified fish - the Glo-Fish that are zebra danios with jellyfish DNA added so that they glow under certain lighting. IIRC, they cannot be sold in some countries, and at first, you could only get single sexes, so they wouldn't reproduce outside of the lab.

\
GloFish are illegal to ship into California, illegal to sell, illegal to transport within the state and illegal to own.

 

[loganbug3]

Go California!!!!

 

[KarlBob]

Dog problems exist at the other end of the scale, too. Great danes and Irish wolfhounds have much shorter lifespans than medium-sized mutts.

The most repulsive results of selective fish breeding that I can think of are fancy goldfish. Twisted spines, easily infected giant bubbles of skin, body and fin shapes that reduce their ability to swim. Yuck. Not for me.

 

[Allmost]

changing DNA and cloning can solve this, but was banned.

we have reached much much greater powers, but they are not made public, cause you dont want it in wrong ppls hands.

 

[GreshamH]

Dog problems exist at the other end of the scale, too. Great danes and Irish wolfhounds have much shorter lifespans than medium-sized mutts.

The most repulsive results of selective fish breeding that I can think of are fancy goldfish. Twisted spines, easily infected giant bubbles of skin, body and fin shapes that reduce their ability to swim. Yuck. Not for me.

Flowerhorns FTW :lolspin:

 

[crazylegs]

-edit-
I'm gonna keep my mouth shut so as not to get this thread locked.