Dinoflagellates.

[dirtrider225]

Your first post in this thread doesn't have any link to a picture. You might have accidentally edited it out? Try posting it again. Photobucket should be fine. If you can't get it to show up inline just post a link to the picture on Photobucket.

Ive read through nearly this entire thread. I currently have Dinos but they arent nearly to the porportions you guys have had them. Mine will take 4 or 5 days to really get annoying to coral and its mostly the frags. I have SPS that are still alive and growing (albiet slow) i have 2 RBTA and 2 RFAs a rabbitfish, starry blenny, urchin, 2 clowns, and 2 shrimp gobies. My CUC isnt dying and i havent had a snail die off like others have mentioned. I do believe i lost a kole tang to this stuff before i knew it was dinos but at the same time there is no way for me to know as it was pretty new to the tank.

Tank info, Red sea reefer 250 (65 gallon system). Used about 15ish lbs of "live" rock from a tank i had set up and running for 6 months. also added about 25 lbs of dry pukani rock a month after setup of the tank. The tank has only been running since october, used carribsea argonite sand. I run rox.8 carbon and use a vertex omega 150 skimmer (way oversized.)

Im not certain but im pretty sure ive had a slight amount of this stuff since end of november, and it took off after i removed a large amount of bryopsis turf algea and peroxide scrubbed a large chunk of the rock.

So far ive tried a ~3 day somewhat blackout.. not total, i didnt cover the tank or anything and i had the lights on for ~45 minutes each night so i could feed the fish and the anemones. (nems werent happy about no light) i dosed 7ml peroxide morning and night during this time and a couple days after. I went 2 weeks without seeing dinos after doing this.

Then my skimmer went offline because i mounted frags with epoxy (took 1.5 weeks and 20 gallons of new water and its JUST starting to work again) and i noticed them starting to return. My corals and nems i dont think will last another 3 day blackout and since it didnt solve the problem im not sure i want to try it again anyways.








These pictures are when it was at its worst. It doesnt get that bad anymore, but that is what it looks like when i let it go


it kind of looks like a type of cyano, except in the morning its nearly all gone and by noon its back again. The more i let it go the stringier it gets, but it also grows on the glass and fragrack. I am trying to get access to a microscope to identify. What are your guys's thoughts?

 

[dirtrider225]

It doesnt seem to let me link direct to the pictures. On my screen and account it shows up but if i log out and look my post's with pictures dont show up. So here is a link to my photobucket which will show the stuff when it was at its worst.
EDIT.. I think i figured it out.
<a href="http://s173.photobucket.com/user/dirtrider225/media/20151214_170944_zpsll01in36.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w48/dirtrider225/20151214_170944_zpsll01in36.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20151214_170944_zpsll01in36.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s173.photobucket.com/user/dirtrider225/media/20151214_170932_zpsrljduuab.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w48/dirtrider225/20151214_170932_zpsrljduuab.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20151214_170932_zpsrljduuab.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s173.photobucket.com/user/dirtrider225/media/20151214_170744_zpszuagj15k.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w48/dirtrider225/20151214_170744_zpszuagj15k.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20151214_170744_zpszuagj15k.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s173.photobucket.com/user/dirtrider225/media/20151214_170800_zpsy1b1y87i.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w48/dirtrider225/20151214_170800_zpsy1b1y87i.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20151214_170800_zpsy1b1y87i.jpg"/></a>

Ive read through nearly this entire thread. I currently have Dinos but they arent nearly to the porportions you guys have had them. Mine will take 4 or 5 days to really get annoying to coral and its mostly the frags. I have SPS that are still alive and growing (albiet slow) i have 2 RBTA and 2 RFAs a rabbitfish, starry blenny, urchin, 2 clowns, and 2 shrimp gobies. My CUC isnt dying and i havent had a snail die off like others have mentioned. I do believe i lost a kole tang to this stuff before i knew it was dinos but at the same time there is no way for me to know as it was pretty new to the tank.

This is when the stuff was at its worst, I did a 3 day blackout and h2o2 treatment as stated below and its much less than that now.

Tank info, Red sea reefer 250 (65 gallon system). Used about 15ish lbs of "live" rock from a tank i had set up and running for 6 months. also added about 25 lbs of dry pukani rock a month after setup of the tank. The tank has only been running since october, used carribsea argonite sand. I run rox.8 carbon and use a vertex omega 150 skimmer (way oversized.)

Im not certain but im pretty sure ive had a slight amount of this stuff since end of november, and it took off after i removed a large amount of bryopsis turf algea and peroxide scrubbed a large chunk of the rock.

So far ive tried a ~3 day somewhat blackout.. not total, i didnt cover the tank or anything and i had the lights on for ~45 minutes each night so i could feed the fish and the anemones. (nems werent happy about no light) i dosed 7ml peroxide morning and night during this time and a couple days after. I went 2 weeks without seeing dinos after doing this.

Then my skimmer went offline because i mounted frags with epoxy (took 1.5 weeks and 20 gallons of new water and its JUST starting to work again) and i noticed them starting to return. My corals and nems i dont think will last another 3 day blackout and since it didnt solve the problem im not sure i want to try it again anyways.

 

[Fish Keeper82]

Dirtrider225 have you looked at it under a microscope? Its hard to id from those pictures. In some it looks like it could be dinos, but in most it looks like Cyano to me. The large amount of bubbles under the mats are not something ive seen to often with dinos. The usually grow on the tips of the stringers.

 

[dirtrider225]

Dirtrider225 have you looked at it under a microscope? Its hard to id from those pictures. In some it looks like it could be dinos, but in most it looks like Cyano to me. The bubbles under the mats are not something ive seen with dinos. The usually grow on the tips of the stringers.

I might have an oppurtunity tonight to look under a microscope. I initially thought its cyano but it doesnt behave like any cyano ive had in the past.

At the same time it doesnt behave 100% like dinos either.

Example. My urchin, snails, hermit crabs and starry blenny are all still alive and they pick away at the rocks and glass constantly. By morning however there is a very very little dusting of the stuff on the glass and sand but otherwhys the tank is clear. When i get home from work there are the strings on many things and the corals are unhappy. I blast away with the turkey baster and the stuff disentegrates (doesnt stay in clumps or mattes) and is back later that day or the next day.

I run rox.8 carbon, have a large skimmer and always do my waterchanges using 0tds water. I feed maybe 1 cube every other day and some pellets on the days i dont feed a cube of mysis. I even siphon out the sand when i do waterchanges and have about 10 nassarius snails. and 2 giant tongan nassarius. I really dont know how there could be built up nutrients to create the cyano.

To be honest i personally think i have a bacterial infection of some sort because for a while i was overdosing red sea's NoPox on accident.

 

[Quiet_Ivy]

I might have an oppurtunity tonight to look under a microscope. I initially thought its cyano but it doesnt behave like any cyano ive had in the past.

At the same time it doesnt behave 100% like dinos either.

Example. My urchin, snails, hermit crabs and starry blenny are all still alive and they pick away at the rocks and glass constantly. I blast away with the turkey baster and the stuff disentegrates (doesnt stay in clumps or mattes) and is back later that day or the next day.

To be honest i personally think i have a bacterial infection of some sort because for a while i was overdosing red sea's NoPox on accident.

I agree with the above, most of that really looks more like cyano. Although the clear stuff on the tiny frag could definitely be bacterial. CUC don't usually touch cyano or dinos, so I'm not sure what's with that. Not all dinos are toxic, there are quite a few that just seem to be ugly and annoying. Cyano does go away overnight. Peroxide treating the rocks probably left some organic material there which is enough to kick off cyano. It has a number of fancy tricks especially with phosphate.

It's possible that you have both dinos AND cyano, they quite often overlap when you're running at low but not undetectable N and P. Raising or lowering nutrients will often push your system towards one or the other. I can tell exactly where my tank is by seeing whether the cyano is ahead of the dinos. What're your parameters like?

Suggestions: Check your N and P. If both are measurable you probably have cyano with possibly some dinos just being annoying. If it's primarily cyano you'll want to reduce P so look into GFO. If it's dinos well that's going to be a more involved discussion.

hth a bit
ivy

 

[Quiet_Ivy]

No i havent seen Pants' website..
Mind linking me to it?
Also they do spin in a big circle..kinda like a clock.

Sorry, I meant to link it at the bottom of the post. That motion is diagnostic for Ostreopsis.

Pants' website for anyone playing along at home: https://www.youtube.com/user/YorickSanchez/feed

Good key for dinos (notice prorocentrum and amphidinium, they look like ostreopsis but seem to be way less toxic. Sit doesn't have Ostreopsis pics for some reason) http://cfb.unh.edu/phycokey/Choices/Dinophyceae/dino_key.html

Algaebase.org has a good image search if you look under Latin name

hth
ivy

 

[dirtrider225]

Hannah phosphate checker has my p04 at 0.00. I only have an API test kit for nitrates which comes up as 0 but i dont really trust it lol. Ill try to get a more representable picture tonight as well as get that ID with a microscope. I really really hope its just cyano and ill do a few Waterchanges and run my skimmer wet. That would like make my week. However it doesnt grow in dense mattes (only the pic with the anemone is like that) the rest of the stuff grows as a dusting everywhere and then gets stringy from there

 

[PorkchopExpress]

dirtrider, although it's not a foolproof test, you can try siphoning some of that out, putting it into a clear container or something, shaking or stirring it up and seeing if in an hour it gathers back together to form strings...i've used this technique on occasions and if it was dino, they tend to congregate back together to talk about who's dating who, figure out who's hosting this year's holiday party, and the next expensive coral to launch an attack on...each little dino cell is even visible to the naked eye

 

[dirtrider225]

Well the results are in... whatcha guys think? Definately dinos but what kind?
https://youtu.be/dflMTKGLUy0
https://youtu.be/6yebk2TETlU

This is the best I could get sorry for quality.

 

[bertoni]

Those look like other samples that have been called Ostreopsis, but I am bad at ids.

 

[seamonster124]

Well the results are in... whatcha guys think? Definately dinos but what kind?
https://youtu.be/dflMTKGLUy0
https://youtu.be/6yebk2TETlU

This is the best I could get sorry for quality.

Ostreopsis. Dirty method worked great for me and quick

 

[rallibon]

.
My tank is 98% dinoflagellate free now.
No corals or fish got harmed in the process and most of the Cyanobacteria is gone as well.

Next steps are to see if it improves even further and if it's permanent or not.
If it's not I'll at least get an opportunity to repeat the process and prove my case.
This time I'd like to present something that really works and it will take time to get there.

What a way to start 2016, with white sands and a hope.

DNA - please do not leave us in suspense re. post #2430!

I am sure like many people on this thread, I have been battling dinoflagellates for several months and have read this thread in its entirety and in particular sympathized with your and Quiet_Ivy's tribulations. Have you found something that works for your situation after so many months of trying?
In my case I have a fairly widespread dinoflagellate "infestation" mainly on the sand. I cannot ID the species with certainty but in my microscope it does not seem to be Ostreopsis and also I have had no casualties beyond a few Mexican turbo snails hence I assume it is of low toxicity. They are slowly receding particularly on the rocks, so I am doing nothing different beyond observing right now following the maxim that "only bad things happen quickly in reef tanks". The only tangible changes I have made to my regime are to take my phosphate reactor offline (Rowaphos), run a de-silicant in a reactor, added better quality resin to RO units to ensure TDS of 0 in my ATO, dose some phyto on a regular basis and slightly over-feed (frozen Mysis, artemia, red plankton, fish eggs). I also blow dinos off the tips of impacted SPS - interestingly it only "lands" on some species, perhaps those less able to chemically / biologically defend themselves. I do run a fairly powerful UV and I run Triton method (so implicitly no or very limited water changes).

 

[dirtrider225]

Ostreopsis. Dirty method worked great for me and quick

I will start over feeding and dosing red sea reef energy A+B (this should be very heavy in nutrients is my understanding.) As well as marine snow by 2 little fishes.

Like you i am also going to add Seachem stability. I also have MB7 i can add as well to increase the diversity.

My corals are mostly all still alive with the exception of a montipora cap that rtn'd about 2 weeks ago. Everything is however showing signs of stress so i REALLY dont want to have to do a black out, I dont think theyll make another 3 day one. Not to mention my 2 RBTA's definately dont like it.

I dont have access to phyto or benthic pods, and its too cold to have them shipped in here in minnesota.

 

[PorkchopExpress]

rallibon, you can add a 3 day blackout to help your cause since you have a "fairly powerful UV"...hopefully it's on low flow...3 day blackouts don't hurt anything the dinos aren't already attacking - what i've done in the past is i feed my fish and corals heavily right before the blackout and then cover the tank and sump completely for the entire 3 days with blankets which helps in pushing them into the water column and into the skimmer and UV sterilizer...because they are in the water column, they are no longer attaching to your weakened corals exposed tips and open wounds and your corals can heal somewhat...when the 3 days are up, your tank, hopefully, should appear free of dinos and that is the time you can continue feeding heavily and throwing in phyto daily and zooplankton semi regularly

 

[dirtrider225]

Question for you guys. It is my understanding that dinoflagellates feed on bacteria and bacterial byproduct. So would it make any sense to use an antibiotic to kill off the bacteria in the tank, then dose a few different bacterias to get my filter going again (thinking seachem stability, MB7, zeobak, red sea's bactostart)? If so i can dose prime and do frequent water changes to keep ammonia and other nutrients down until the filter is built back up?

 

[rallibon]

rallibon, you can add a 3 day blackout to help your cause since you have a "fairly powerful UV"...hopefully it's on low flow...3 day blackouts don't hurt anything the dinos aren't already attacking - what i've done in the past is i feed my fish and corals heavily right before the blackout and then cover the tank and sump completely for the entire 3 days with blankets which helps in pushing them into the water column and into the skimmer and UV sterilizer...because they are in the water column, they are no longer attaching to your weakened corals exposed tips and open wounds and your corals can heal somewhat...when the 3 days are up, your tank, hopefully, should appear free of dinos and that is the time you can continue feeding heavily and throwing in phyto daily and zooplankton semi regularly

Thanks PorkchopExpress - I had omitted to say I did a 3 day total blackout several weeks ago and I will probably look to repeat - it did reduce the dinos but it came back after a few days although not quite so extensively. I do indeed have low flow through the UV but I think it may not be in the most efficient position in that my Display Tank overflows down into a 3-section sump in my basement and then gets pumped one of 5 ways: (1) back up to the DT (2) to a frag tank situated above the sump (also in the basement) (3) and (4) to two other water change cubes (next to the sump that and usually part of the system but can be isolated) or (5) through the UV then back into the sump. The reason I think this is an issue is that the free-floating dinos in the DT would need to go on a fairly long journey through the sump before they get pushed into the UV - and they may bypass it altogether. My proposed solution is to perhaps install another UV as soon after the DT overflow as possible. I have also experimented with siphoning the dinos from my frag tank using 10 micron filter socks - result is that several days afterwards some dinos have returned but nothing like as strongly.
My overall theory, with no empirical or scientific support (which will infuriate some) but based on my gut feel, is that a combination of using UV to kill free-floating dinos plus encouraging supporting flora (chaeto) and fauna (pods) that can out-compete them once nitrate or PO4 levels are slightly raised plus selective siphoning that forces the dinos to "repopulate" in the face of the increased competition plus addition of beneficial bacteria (in my case ZEObak / ZEOzym) MIGHT combine to remove it - at least visibly. I tend to agree with all the observations that dinos are omni-present just not usually in an observable "bloom". Either that or just the passage of time will mean balance will eventually be restored and patience is all that is needed and we are all barking up the wrong tree! I exempt people with toxic dinos from that last point who have lost significant number of corals / fish and where doing nothing is not a viable option. I await the next chapter of this thread with eager anticipation - and earnestly hope for good news from the longer-suffering participants on an altruistic level (because they deserve an aquarium to take pleasure from) and a selfish level (because they may help me fix mine!).

 

[jonwright]

I'll say that running "dirty" is much simpler, easier, LOW MAINTENANCE, and has a much smaller chance of crashing your tank and putting your inhabitants at risk. Either that or ultraclean prior to experimenting with nuking the tank.

Have you tried those? Most folks aren't entirely sure your proposal will work.

 

[karimwassef]

Thanks PorkchopExpress - I had omitted to say I did a 3 day total blackout several weeks ago and I will probably look to repeat - it did reduce the dinos but it came back after a few days although not quite so extensively. I do indeed have low flow through the UV but I think it may not be in the most efficient position in that my Display Tank overflows down into a 3-section sump in my basement and then gets pumped one of 5 ways: (1) back up to the DT (2) to a frag tank situated above the sump (also in the basement) (3) and (4) to two other water change cubes (next to the sump that and usually part of the system but can be isolated) or (5) through the UV then back into the sump. The reason I think this is an issue is that the free-floating dinos in the DT would need to go on a fairly long journey through the sump before they get pushed into the UV - and they may bypass it altogether. My proposed solution is to perhaps install another UV as soon after the DT overflow as possible. I have also experimented with siphoning the dinos from my frag tank using 10 micron filter socks - result is that several days afterwards some dinos have returned but nothing like as strongly.
My overall theory, with no empirical or scientific support (which will infuriate some) but based on my gut feel, is that a combination of using UV to kill free-floating dinos plus encouraging supporting flora (chaeto) and fauna (pods) that can out-compete them once nitrate or PO4 levels are slightly raised plus selective siphoning that forces the dinos to "repopulate" in the face of the increased competition plus addition of beneficial bacteria (in my case ZEObak / ZEOzym) MIGHT combine to remove it - at least visibly. I tend to agree with all the observations that dinos are omni-present just not usually in an observable "bloom". Either that or just the passage of time will mean balance will eventually be restored and patience is all that is needed and we are all barking up the wrong tree! I exempt people with toxic dinos from that last point who have lost significant number of corals / fish and where doing nothing is not a viable option. I await the next chapter of this thread with eager anticipation - and earnestly hope for good news from the longer-suffering participants on an altruistic level (because they deserve an aquarium to take pleasure from) and a selfish level (because they may help me fix mine!).

I used the clean method successfully.
3 days light off won't kill corals. 5 days light off won't kill corals. They are photosynthetic, but they also will eat coral food from the water. You can still spot feed them.

 

[seamonster124]

I will start over feeding and dosing red sea reef energy A+B (this should be very heavy in nutrients is my understanding.) As well as marine snow by 2 little fishes.

Like you i am also going to add Seachem stability. I also have MB7 i can add as well to increase the diversity.

My corals are mostly all still alive with the exception of a montipora cap that rtn'd about 2 weeks ago. Everything is however showing signs of stress so i REALLY dont want to have to do a black out, I dont think theyll make another 3 day one. Not to mention my 2 RBTA's definately dont like it.

I dont have access to phyto or benthic pods, and its too cold to have them shipped in here in minnesota.

Good luck. Keep us posted.
Could be wrong but I think phytoplankton likes to be stored in the cold.

 

[dirtrider225]

Good luck. Keep us posted.
Could be wrong but I think phytoplankton likes to be stored in the cold.

I guess i just assumed they were the same as pods. My mistake. Unfortunately this will not be starting until i get back from vacation. Im leaving friday for 8 days and the girlfriend will have a hard enough time trying to maintain alk and cal while im away and remember to top off and empty the skimmer lol