Dinoflagellates.

Hi Dna, i have to say this is an extremely scary thread, however i do have a few questions

1-what are the odds of getting dino? is it common?
2- does it have to be introduced to your tank or can it be created in your tank? (if i set an aggressive qt routine for everything will i be able to avoid such a disaster? in other words qt-dip in fw then qt in a different tank following more fw dips?

i am about to setup my 265g (first sw tank) and reading this thread just scares the crap out of me! i cant even imagine the amount of time, money, death and torture to your current fish and corals it takes to get rid of this

could you post a few pics? /timeline /history of your tank

or just the last one, i want to see the dino in your tank
 
My dinoflagellates outbreak began immediately after I killed off all of my Cyanobacteria by doing a 3 day dark period. Tank was COVERED in cyano before...after lights out it was sparkly clean. I loved it. Then 2-3 days later the brown bubbly snot showed up. Nothing else changed. Just killed one pest and freed up nutrients for another pest to consume
 
Hi Dna, i have to say this is an extremely scary thread, however i do have a few questions

1-what are the odds of getting dino? is it common?
2- does it have to be introduced to your tank or can it be created in your tank? (if i set an aggressive qt routine for everything will i be able to avoid such a disaster? in other words qt-dip in fw then qt in a different tank following more fw dips?

i am about to setup my 265g (first sw tank) and reading this thread just scares the crap out of me! i cant even imagine the amount of time, money, death and torture to your current fish and corals it takes to get rid of this

could you post a few pics? /timeline /history of your tank

or just the last one, i want to see the dino in your tank



There are about 2000 different kinds of dinos and virtually all tanks have them.
It's just the beneficial types like zooxanthellae in corals. They are also very important part of the natural food chain.

Then there are the toxic species that are causing reef-keepers problems as well as mass killing fish and invertebrates in the ocean when they bloom.
The encysted forms of some dinoflagellates may remain viable for a century lying dormant in sediment until the environment is suitable for them.

I don't know the odds but I'd guess less than 1% of reefers get them as a plague, but it seems to be on the rise or they are getting more often identified.
I have it from Potsy here on Reef Central they they die almost instantly in freshwater or rapid drop in salinity and I surely hope it works that way for me.

Some of the pictures I've taken my cause quite a stir and I'm not posting them, but imagine your fish having this organism sitting on their fins, gills and vents.
Shrimps may have hundreds hanging on a single tentacle at any given time since the dinos have a unique way to attach instantly to almost anything.
All of my fish and shrimp are still alive though and to a normal reefer everything seems to be alright.

Most of us run carbon none stop and I think that is very important for your own health if you have some of the toxic ones in your tank.
I don't know of anyone that has died, but a lot have gotten respiratory problems and red eyes just by staying briefly near a shoreline where there is a dino bloom.
After identifying the ones I have and knowing it's palytoxin they produce I was swift to decide to pull the plug.
Palytoxin is one of the most toxic natural poison known and the amount that takes to kill a man, if it enters the bloodstream, can hardly be seen by the naked eye.

It does indeed sound scary, but I recommend not to be to paranoid and just enjoy your reefkeeping.
Most of us will never get them in big numbers or even notice them and carbon will take care of the toxins.

I do think it's important to be informed if you get them so you can act accordingly.
That is the purpose of this thread.

---

I found an image suitable for the public.
It's a tiny Neon Goby and you can see a few individual dinos on top of it's head against the background.

GGL_8417a.jpg
 
My dinoflagellates outbreak began immediately after I killed off all of my Cyanobacteria by doing a 3 day dark period. Tank was COVERED in cyano before...after lights out it was sparkly clean. I loved it. Then 2-3 days later the brown bubbly snot showed up. Nothing else changed. Just killed one pest and freed up nutrients for another pest to consume

I think it's possible that it's Cyano that is sitting on top of the dinos on the sand bed.
This is where the first sign of dinos is that reefers notice.

I thought I had diatoms shortly after I restarted the tank almost two years ago, but after months the brown patches on the sand persisted and they have never left.

A good way to find out if you have dinos is to turn off all pumps and blast all the rocks with a single powerhead and wait for 5 five minutes.
If it's like fine dust coming off the rocks and they form strings in the water column when free swimming it's a good indicator of dinos.
 
I think that fish picture is just astounding, who thinks of a fishes slime coat as a vector of pestilence we usually only consider the substrata. Truly amazing picture ill be linking back to this one some day.
 
I have dinos in my tank especially on artificial live rock but they haven't hurt any of the corals as of yet.
Absolutely unsightly.
My weapon of choice? Powerhead blowing on rocks and a toothbrush.
 
Someone here mentioned fresh water will "instantly kill" Dino's... Is this a fact? Or jus an opinion... Is there any info out there to back this claim?

I really need some thoughts on this...
 
I don't know what kind I had but they started killing my corals and anemones. This worked for me in a 40g DT (55g system):
-Raised the pH with Kalk
-Black out for five days, I completely covered the tank with a metallic curtain (the ones that are like color in one side and metallic in the other). I added an air pump in the sump knowing the curtain would limit the gas exchange. Went back slowly, a week of just 2 t5 for 5hrs, then 6 T5s 5hrs.
-GFO, I used a cup of GFO with a little higher flow than usual and changed it every other day for a week and weekly for about 8 weeks.
- Wet Skimming.
- Absolutely zero water changes during the battle (about 8 weeks)

I think the key was being very aggressive with each approach, I'm not sure how aggressive you have been. Like the blackouts, not just the lights off but cover the tank and don't let any light in the display or sump and I did five days. The GFO daily or every other day changing large amounts and increasing the flow in the reactor a bit, not too much or you will pulverize it.
 
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Someone here mentioned fresh water will "instantly kill" Dino's... Is this a fact? Or jus an opinion... Is there any info out there to back this claim?

I really need some thoughts on this...

Anyone have any thoughts? Maybe I should assume that statement was bogus?
 
Well, microbes often die when subjected to a rapid change in SG, so it's possible that dinoflagellates will. I haven't tried it myself, and different species of dinoflagellates might respond differently.
 
I fought dinos for over a year. In the end I cut all corals hard and soft from the LR. Placed in a rubbermaid with new LR. Threw the old lr in the back yard. Dumped a gallon of bleach in my 75. Drained. Got some new LR. Replaced the coral....no issues x 5 yrs
 
It's possible ,I supose. However,I haven't heard a freshwater dip kills them instantly before.
 
Anyone have any thoughts? Maybe I should assume that statement was bogus?

The claim was originally made by "Pants" a member of reefcentral and a microbiologist specializing in dinoflagellates, and further disseminated by me. In experiments he found that a rapid change of even 5 ppt of salinity was enough to kill dinoflagellates.

I have confirmed this with my own experiments featuring a microscope, a dropper filled with freshwater, and a sample of ostreopsis dinos. A few drops of freshwater in the petri dish, bringing the s.g. to 1.014 instantly and the result is dead dinos, ruptured and bloated. But the change must be sudden. A few stragglers can survive in hyposalinity if the salinity is lowered gradually.

Consider what happens when dipping zoanthids in freshwater: amphipods and flatworms start dropping like flies right away. Dinoflagellate's soft, unicellular bodies, or any microbes for that matter I'd imagine, can't withstand those kinds of differences in osmotic pressure.
 
Consider what doesn't happen to the the zoanthid's endosymbiont dinofalgellates(zooxanthelae) as zoanthidae tolerate fresh water dips well with no apparent loss . Hyposalinity might kill some dinoflagellates but it will kill lots of other isotonic organisms as well. Not all corals and other isontic orgaisms tolerate it well.
I've never heard of hyposalinity as a treatment before and wouldn't personally do fresh water dips on all new corals.Never heard of Pants and haven't seen his posts so it's difficult to evaluate the pass along information without context.
 
Is there any detail about NO3 dosing to remove dinoflagellates . Any evidence for this notion? How does it affect them ? At what level?
 
I only ask cuz I've setup another entirely different system to combat the Dino's I have I. What was jus a temporary system... I can't prove it, but I'm pretty sure it was brought on by certain tiles I've used... As I've never seen Dino's in any system where I haven't used them, and every system I had used them... I'm startin over with new or sterilized everything... Thing is, I have about 15 nice zoa frags that have Dino's on them, and I don't wana add them to this new setup, unless I'm positive I can kill them... My thought was a nice freshwater dip, followed by a peroxide solution dip, then into a coral QT I setup... And kinda see from there if they come back... Absolutely no sand, rock, or tanks will be used in the new setups... Any pumps or equipment will be soaked in bleach for a while... I assume that will definately kill any Dino's on the gear... But my worry is the frags... Some are real nice, but if I have to avoid keeping them, well then I will... But was hoping to hear good news on them going through some dips... And maybe salvaging the collection I have to this point... They are all on frag plugs...
 
I got Dino in one of my tank. Fortunately it was in my QT, that is about 25 g cube. I completely isolate the tank. All the equipment used on that tank stay with that tank. I just do water change and suck out as much Dino as I can with each of the water change, 50% weekly. After a few months the Dino went away and have not come back since.
 
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