Dinoflagellates.
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DNA
New member
I think it's a combination of too much light and the coralline repelling the dinos.
In my tank dinos sit on coralline in the shade and also previously in the lighted areas that are now covered with coralline.
Amphiprion
Premium Member
I am actually tearing my tank down and then setting everything back up after bleaching the tank itself, as whatever is present kills quite a few things. Rock and sand will be new. My question is about a few select portions of my livestock.
1. Would a relatively strong dip in H2O2 kill the dinoflagellates. I'm thinking something like 1:2 ratio of peroxide (3%) to tank water. This will be for my seagrasses (Thalassia), which also harbor Lyngbya. I would also do a brief rinse in RO/DI water to be rid of excess peroxide.
2. If the above holds true, would a less concentrated solution be viable for non "sps" corals?
I want to introduce as little as humanly possible from any old livestock. Any livestock retained from the current tank would be limited to fish, seagrass, and probably 1-2 corals--1 Plerogyra and 1 Nepthea.
1. Would a relatively strong dip in H2O2 kill the dinoflagellates. I'm thinking something like 1:2 ratio of peroxide (3%) to tank water. This will be for my seagrasses (Thalassia), which also harbor Lyngbya. I would also do a brief rinse in RO/DI water to be rid of excess peroxide.
2. If the above holds true, would a less concentrated solution be viable for non "sps" corals?
I want to introduce as little as humanly possible from any old livestock. Any livestock retained from the current tank would be limited to fish, seagrass, and probably 1-2 corals--1 Plerogyra and 1 Nepthea.
Amphiprion
Premium Member
That's what I've seen, unfortunately. I'm actually getting everything from an entirely different source, which also imports/collects stock from an entirely different source/geographic location. I'm hoping this could increase chances, but I know there's no guarantee.
1st off I have to disclose that I only read the first 223 posts of this thread and apologize if my question is a repeat of what has been discussed. But I am trying to avoid wasting more time doing what I am doing.
2 months back I inherited livestock and corals from a friend who moved out of the country. His tank was infested with dinos and a complete nasty mess. Out of it I was only able to salvaged 3 large colonies of mixed zoas. I have housed them in a bare bottom 20g long with a hob skimmer and circulation pump since then. In an effort to try and clean it up I have been doing 50% weekly WC's, which include the removal of the rocks (which gets rinsed off), I scrub the tank with hot water and vinegar, clean all of the equipment (HOB PS, Heater and Pump) and put it all back together with 50% new water. The 1st few weeks the dinos came right back in a day or 2 but the last 3 WC's have knocked them back hard and it has been 6 days since the last WC and I don't see any in the tank. I was hoping that I was winning the war but from what I read, I am not.
My question is: Is this even worth it or should I just shut it down and stop thinking that I am winning the battle? From what I am reading it sounds like I am wasting my time and need to move on and consider this a learning experience.
Thanks
Tom
2 months back I inherited livestock and corals from a friend who moved out of the country. His tank was infested with dinos and a complete nasty mess. Out of it I was only able to salvaged 3 large colonies of mixed zoas. I have housed them in a bare bottom 20g long with a hob skimmer and circulation pump since then. In an effort to try and clean it up I have been doing 50% weekly WC's, which include the removal of the rocks (which gets rinsed off), I scrub the tank with hot water and vinegar, clean all of the equipment (HOB PS, Heater and Pump) and put it all back together with 50% new water. The 1st few weeks the dinos came right back in a day or 2 but the last 3 WC's have knocked them back hard and it has been 6 days since the last WC and I don't see any in the tank. I was hoping that I was winning the war but from what I read, I am not.
My question is: Is this even worth it or should I just shut it down and stop thinking that I am winning the battle? From what I am reading it sounds like I am wasting my time and need to move on and consider this a learning experience.
Thanks
Tom
karimwassef
Active member
I think that the posts seem to point in the direction of something being wrong with the water parameters and that's why we're plagued by dinos.
Based on my understanding, that is not the case. It's actually good coral growing environments that result in the population explosion.
Water changes don't help. The only potential benefit is a shock to the bio system that causes them to lose some ground for some time.
The dinos exist in every tank. They're just in balance with their environment (predation and competition). They erupt when that balance goes out of wack - long photoperiod with few corals, coralline or other algae (for example). Lack of planktonic predators (not enough biodiversity in the bio fauna). Etc...
Changing the water isn't the answer. Neither is phosphate reduction (reactors, media).
What works is a direct assault by physical removal, skimming and socks to catch them and export out, reduced photoperiod to allow for planktonic predation, more prefators and a healthy stock of photosynthetic users (algae, corals) to compete.
That's my thinking IMHO.
Based on my understanding, that is not the case. It's actually good coral growing environments that result in the population explosion.
Water changes don't help. The only potential benefit is a shock to the bio system that causes them to lose some ground for some time.
The dinos exist in every tank. They're just in balance with their environment (predation and competition). They erupt when that balance goes out of wack - long photoperiod with few corals, coralline or other algae (for example). Lack of planktonic predators (not enough biodiversity in the bio fauna). Etc...
Changing the water isn't the answer. Neither is phosphate reduction (reactors, media).
What works is a direct assault by physical removal, skimming and socks to catch them and export out, reduced photoperiod to allow for planktonic predation, more prefators and a healthy stock of photosynthetic users (algae, corals) to compete.
That's my thinking IMHO.
SurlyT
Member
I threw in the towel on my tank over the summer due to ostreopsis and hope to be restarting soon. In the meantime I've continued to follow this thread.
karimwassef, I've not heard that plankton feed on dinos up until your recent posts. I'm not denying it - it sounds reasonable - but would like some more info here in support of your thinking. There are a tremendous number of species of both dinos and plankton and it would be great if we had any evidence that matched any of them up as predator and prey - even if that evidence was only anecdotal. Just hearing that someone actually solved a dino problem through addition of planktonic supplements or even well-seeded liverock would be encouraging.
karimwassef, I've not heard that plankton feed on dinos up until your recent posts. I'm not denying it - it sounds reasonable - but would like some more info here in support of your thinking. There are a tremendous number of species of both dinos and plankton and it would be great if we had any evidence that matched any of them up as predator and prey - even if that evidence was only anecdotal. Just hearing that someone actually solved a dino problem through addition of planktonic supplements or even well-seeded liverock would be encouraging.
Squidmotron
New member
I don't know if you remember me from early this year/late last year, but I had the dino plague.
I verified that it was the dino plague via microscope.
I haven't had it in 6 months.
What I did do to beat this? Absolutely nothing. It just died out on it's own. No measurable parameter has changed in that time. Not nitrates. Not phosphates. Not pH, which is usually in the 8.1 - 8.2 range. Nothing. My tank has remained absolutely stable with all those parameters. If anything, I was MUCH LESS conscientious with physical removal.
My story is not that unusual, as I spent lots of time scouring the internet finding people who beat it.
I am concerned for people who tear just down their tanks. I've had it more than once. I think it comes in newer-ish tanks, but tanks that have passed the very new diatom/green algae stages. I think it takes much longer to die out than waiting out a diatom explosion, but it does. I think if you tear down your tank there is a very finite and reasonable possibility you will just face it again.
My one controversial belief is that a newer sand bed helps them by providing an indirect food source (many of these species consume diatoms). There are several tests I did that back up this hypothesis and I may explain more later.
I was absolutely plagued and blowing off dinos every single day. I haven't seen a trace in months and months. Not one trace.
I verified that it was the dino plague via microscope.
I haven't had it in 6 months.
What I did do to beat this? Absolutely nothing. It just died out on it's own. No measurable parameter has changed in that time. Not nitrates. Not phosphates. Not pH, which is usually in the 8.1 - 8.2 range. Nothing. My tank has remained absolutely stable with all those parameters. If anything, I was MUCH LESS conscientious with physical removal.
My story is not that unusual, as I spent lots of time scouring the internet finding people who beat it.
I am concerned for people who tear just down their tanks. I've had it more than once. I think it comes in newer-ish tanks, but tanks that have passed the very new diatom/green algae stages. I think it takes much longer to die out than waiting out a diatom explosion, but it does. I think if you tear down your tank there is a very finite and reasonable possibility you will just face it again.
My one controversial belief is that a newer sand bed helps them by providing an indirect food source (many of these species consume diatoms). There are several tests I did that back up this hypothesis and I may explain more later.
I was absolutely plagued and blowing off dinos every single day. I haven't seen a trace in months and months. Not one trace.
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Amphiprion
Premium Member
A somewhat reasonable hypothesis, but in regards to tearing the tank down, I don't think anyone has the kind of patience necessary, as it doesn't seem to work that way for everyone. I've had issues with dinoflagellates in my one system for over 2 years. I can't handle it any longer after trying numerous remedies--and even just leaving it alone. The latter cost me dearly in livestock. I was killing corals trying to starve the dinoflagellates. The best luck I had in repelling them somewhat was allowing for nutrients to increase and promote other algae and cyanobacteria. That netted me a Lyngbya infestation. I'm willing to take one last gamble because I cannot stand it any longer.
karimwassef
Active member
This supports my theory that it's not a chemistry issue. It's a biological imbalance (not that they're not related). The ecosystem needs to balance and that takes time or a mature bio fauna.
I think the idea that live rock could introduce their predators is a good one to test.
My sources - I googled "what plankton eat dinoflagellates". I could post some here but I suggest you try the same. Here's one that's pretty direct
http://www.mbari.org/staff/conn/botany/dinos/ecology.htm
In terms of doing nothing - I think we do things but call them 'nothing'. Did you feed more instead of less? Did you allow algae to grow without ripping it out? Did you do less water changes?
I personally think these actions all help the biology stabilize. (Except water changes, I still believe that's just good any time). I'm thinking of introducing chaeto into my main DT to outcompete with them.
Last night I added 6000 pods in the dark. Going to keep it dark for a few days to give them a chance.
I think the idea that live rock could introduce their predators is a good one to test.
My sources - I googled "what plankton eat dinoflagellates". I could post some here but I suggest you try the same. Here's one that's pretty direct
http://www.mbari.org/staff/conn/botany/dinos/ecology.htm
In terms of doing nothing - I think we do things but call them 'nothing'. Did you feed more instead of less? Did you allow algae to grow without ripping it out? Did you do less water changes?
I personally think these actions all help the biology stabilize. (Except water changes, I still believe that's just good any time). I'm thinking of introducing chaeto into my main DT to outcompete with them.
Last night I added 6000 pods in the dark. Going to keep it dark for a few days to give them a chance.
karimwassef
Active member
http://www.marinebio.net/marinescience/03ecology/mlplankton.htm
The zooplankton entry (after dino) talk about them feeding on cyano and dino
The zooplankton entry (after dino) talk about them feeding on cyano and dino
karimwassef
Active member
I added copepods and amphipods mix from reefs2go
joeyvu
New member
I think Karimwassef and squidmotron into something great. I have read a few articles on the net and suggested by karim like this one,
http://nerrs.noaa.gov/doc/siteprofile/acebasin/html/biores/phyto/pytext.htm
I have this problem too. I am trying several approach now: slow down my turn-over rate, slow down my DT powerhead by 50%, using hang-on UV, adding H2O2 at 2ml/10gal, only feed pellet and seawead soaked in DI water, running ATS, using coral snow with zeoback, no changing water, no scraping glass wall even there is dinos there, no suctioning dinos from sand. after trying this combo approach for almost two weeks (tomorrow will be exactly two weeks) i don't see any dino in my display or under my sump now. I hope it is gone for good.
I plan to slow down my UV and H2O2 addition by turn off UV overnight, reduce H2O2 by half a dose after two weeks of full treatment. What I am trying to do is let the system slowly bringing the balance back. According to the papers I have read, dinos always present in the system. It appears after the storm, seasonal change or other words, the imbalance of the system. I also think that suctioning the sand to get rid of dinos is bad idea since it disrupt the sand fauna system. As squidmotron said, I did "Absolutely nothing." the system find the balance itself.
Hope we will find the cure for this.
Joey
http://nerrs.noaa.gov/doc/siteprofile/acebasin/html/biores/phyto/pytext.htm
I have this problem too. I am trying several approach now: slow down my turn-over rate, slow down my DT powerhead by 50%, using hang-on UV, adding H2O2 at 2ml/10gal, only feed pellet and seawead soaked in DI water, running ATS, using coral snow with zeoback, no changing water, no scraping glass wall even there is dinos there, no suctioning dinos from sand. after trying this combo approach for almost two weeks (tomorrow will be exactly two weeks) i don't see any dino in my display or under my sump now. I hope it is gone for good.
I plan to slow down my UV and H2O2 addition by turn off UV overnight, reduce H2O2 by half a dose after two weeks of full treatment. What I am trying to do is let the system slowly bringing the balance back. According to the papers I have read, dinos always present in the system. It appears after the storm, seasonal change or other words, the imbalance of the system. I also think that suctioning the sand to get rid of dinos is bad idea since it disrupt the sand fauna system. As squidmotron said, I did "Absolutely nothing." the system find the balance itself.
Hope we will find the cure for this.
Joey
