seamonster124
New member
I would take a cup out and start over with a bottle.
Dinoflagellates.
- Thread starter DNA
- Start date
reefcentral123
In Memoriam
use one of those half liter poland spring bottles. use ur stove to heat something up and cut a hole in the bottle cap and stick some airline tubing all the way down into the bottle and have bubbles going thru to keep things oxygenated and moving.
karimwassef
Active member
OK - QUESTION TO THE CHEMISTRY GUYS!
Randy, Jonathan -
I've been looking at comparing dinos, cyano, and phyto ...
And there's an interesting concept that I'd like to understand better.
In the Nitrogen cycle, Nitrogen Fixation is converting Nitrogen gas into biologically available Nitrogen - which is an essential part of the food cycle (correct?).
In our tanks, as we feed, we add biologically available nitrogen as our reefs and fish create waste like ammonia. The nitrifying bateria convert this into nitrite and then nitrate.
THEN! IN THE SAND OR OTHER ANAEROBIC MEDIA, DENITRIFYING BACTERIA CONVERT THIS INTO NITROGEN GAS (correct?).
Why the caps? because I think the N2 is the problem. We've associated sand beds with dinos and cyano... but I think it's the fact that a functioning sand bed will generate nitrogen gas.
The Nitrogen gas, along with any waste, becomes a food source... for nitrogen fixing creatures... DINOS, CYANO, PHYTO.
I'm not blaming Nitrogen, or the sand bed. I think it's all natural - until the normal nitrogen fixing agents die off... leaving a void. Here's where Cyano and Dinos take off.
The introduction of other bacteria, as well as the addition of phyto seems to really help - and it may be that they are simply taking over their normal functions of nitrogen fixing.
Ok - I know it sounds overly simplistic ... but it ties the pieces of data we've experienced into one loop.
and the cures seem to align with the results too.
Randy's theory on a contributing component that's feeding the dinos may be spot on - it's just that the component is essential to life = nitrogen. But it is in the form of nitrogen gas, and high flow could help remove it before it gets pulled back in by the dinos.
This also explains why cyano seems to show up before dinos take over... and usually around sand... just above the nitrogen factory deep below. The presense of the mats of cyano and dino only makes the region even more anaerobic, fueling the nitrogen source.
So - I'm a physicist, not a chemist - so I'm asking the smarter chemistry guys... could it just be a link in the Nitrogen cycle that gets locked up by one species?
If the solution is adding phyto to compete for the nitrogen food source... what does that mean for better application? should we dose it right over the sand bed like a fog where the gas is most available?
What other options are there? better circulation? are there other nitrogen fixers that are beneficial?
I know Dr Tim's has a product that's based on bacteria that attack the cyano bacteria... could it work here?
Randy, Jonathan -
I've been looking at comparing dinos, cyano, and phyto ...
And there's an interesting concept that I'd like to understand better.
In the Nitrogen cycle, Nitrogen Fixation is converting Nitrogen gas into biologically available Nitrogen - which is an essential part of the food cycle (correct?).
In our tanks, as we feed, we add biologically available nitrogen as our reefs and fish create waste like ammonia. The nitrifying bateria convert this into nitrite and then nitrate.
THEN! IN THE SAND OR OTHER ANAEROBIC MEDIA, DENITRIFYING BACTERIA CONVERT THIS INTO NITROGEN GAS (correct?).
Why the caps? because I think the N2 is the problem. We've associated sand beds with dinos and cyano... but I think it's the fact that a functioning sand bed will generate nitrogen gas.
The Nitrogen gas, along with any waste, becomes a food source... for nitrogen fixing creatures... DINOS, CYANO, PHYTO.
I'm not blaming Nitrogen, or the sand bed. I think it's all natural - until the normal nitrogen fixing agents die off... leaving a void. Here's where Cyano and Dinos take off.
The introduction of other bacteria, as well as the addition of phyto seems to really help - and it may be that they are simply taking over their normal functions of nitrogen fixing.
Ok - I know it sounds overly simplistic ... but it ties the pieces of data we've experienced into one loop.
and the cures seem to align with the results too.
Randy's theory on a contributing component that's feeding the dinos may be spot on - it's just that the component is essential to life = nitrogen. But it is in the form of nitrogen gas, and high flow could help remove it before it gets pulled back in by the dinos.
This also explains why cyano seems to show up before dinos take over... and usually around sand... just above the nitrogen factory deep below. The presense of the mats of cyano and dino only makes the region even more anaerobic, fueling the nitrogen source.
So - I'm a physicist, not a chemist - so I'm asking the smarter chemistry guys... could it just be a link in the Nitrogen cycle that gets locked up by one species?
If the solution is adding phyto to compete for the nitrogen food source... what does that mean for better application? should we dose it right over the sand bed like a fog where the gas is most available?
What other options are there? better circulation? are there other nitrogen fixers that are beneficial?
I know Dr Tim's has a product that's based on bacteria that attack the cyano bacteria... could it work here?
karimwassef
Active member
After posting, I thought that someone smarter might have had the same idea... So I googled it. And as usual...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3849724/
What do you all think??
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3849724/
What do you all think??
machodik
Active member
Dinoflagellates.
I have been puzzling about this feedback, as of now I still not sure if I am having dinos or not but some one have asked me to turn off all the flows to stop current in my DT and wait for 15 mins , and if there are floating slime string like things then that is dinos , and I have tried and I saw a lots of floating slime string like stuff measuring several centimeters in length.
As discuss here, the causative agent for Dinos is due to nitrogen but someone say it may be some hose that we use is excreting some softener causing to have dinos in our tank?
Can anyone give me your valued advise and comments if this was indeed positively Dinos ? And the hose we use except silicone and PVC are causing this dinos at the end ? Or due to the N that strongly discuss here?
I attached here a video that aside from the said free floating slime string stuff , I also saw the long said algae like stuff attached to glass wall:
https://vimeo.com/154983975
Cheers,
MD
I have been puzzling about this feedback, as of now I still not sure if I am having dinos or not but some one have asked me to turn off all the flows to stop current in my DT and wait for 15 mins , and if there are floating slime string like things then that is dinos , and I have tried and I saw a lots of floating slime string like stuff measuring several centimeters in length.
As discuss here, the causative agent for Dinos is due to nitrogen but someone say it may be some hose that we use is excreting some softener causing to have dinos in our tank?
Can anyone give me your valued advise and comments if this was indeed positively Dinos ? And the hose we use except silicone and PVC are causing this dinos at the end ? Or due to the N that strongly discuss here?
I attached here a video that aside from the said free floating slime string stuff , I also saw the long said algae like stuff attached to glass wall:
https://vimeo.com/154983975
Cheers,
MD
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Okay... I am so done with these dino's that I'm ready to give up but don't want too. Here is what I'm thinking about doing and would like some feedback.
1. Take all of my fish back to the LFS or sell them to other local reefers (including sand sifting star, crabs and snails)
2. Remove all of my rocks from my tank and put them in a tub of tank water with a power head and skimmer to keep it good.
3. Remove and discard all of the live sand in my tank
4. Clean the entire tank, sump and do some re-build the return lines (nothing to do with the dino's but something I've wanted to do for some time).
Questions (when re-starting):
1. should I go bare bottom or get new sand?
2. should I try and save some of the current tank water (50%) or should I start from scratch will all new water?
3. put the rocks back into the tank
Once this is done, I will have to wait for the tank to cycle all over again, but I can't deal with the dino's any more.
Please let me know your thoughts!
1. Take all of my fish back to the LFS or sell them to other local reefers (including sand sifting star, crabs and snails)
2. Remove all of my rocks from my tank and put them in a tub of tank water with a power head and skimmer to keep it good.
3. Remove and discard all of the live sand in my tank
4. Clean the entire tank, sump and do some re-build the return lines (nothing to do with the dino's but something I've wanted to do for some time).
Questions (when re-starting):
1. should I go bare bottom or get new sand?
2. should I try and save some of the current tank water (50%) or should I start from scratch will all new water?
3. put the rocks back into the tank
Once this is done, I will have to wait for the tank to cycle all over again, but I can't deal with the dino's any more.
Please let me know your thoughts!
Fish Keeper82
New member
Some people have restarted their tanks just to have dinos pop back up. I would just keep fighting them myself. I had just about given up and was going to let nature take its course but i soon aftet added a UV sterilizer and it got me back to good times. Yes they are still here but very small level compared to before
Fish Keeper82
New member
I know you've probably heard this before but only positive ID is with a microscope. Short of looking at them thru one you cant be 100% .... but yes stringers that disapear at night were typical of my ostreopsis dinos. I never had stringers longer than 3/4" however. That one you posted was very long compared to how mine were. And i never had stringers from the glass just rock and sand.
karimwassef
Active member
Many of us use hoses for years without issue. I don't see the connection there. If it wass contaminant, then the excessive water changes many of us attempt first to fix the issue would help, not hurt.
I'm not asserting that it's nitrogen gas fixation that's at the root of the issue. There's still no clarity on why some get cyano and others get dinos, for example. It may just be a race and the first to critical mass wins the tank.
I'm actually asking the experts if this theory sticks together and whether the data points really do align with it.
I'm not asserting that it's nitrogen gas fixation that's at the root of the issue. There's still no clarity on why some get cyano and others get dinos, for example. It may just be a race and the first to critical mass wins the tank.
I'm actually asking the experts if this theory sticks together and whether the data points really do align with it.
regtur
New member
ok, here goes I'm a retired truck driver so don't be mean plz. I posted that yesterday I got up to small bubbles on rocks, algae, but not corals or polyps. removed bubbles just to have them come back in a couple of hours. My wife mentioned that 2 days ago I had a heater passing a small electric charge thru the tank, {bumped head on light fixture rude alert} and since I removed it my brown star polyps just dissolved in gray dust and now bubbles are present is this dinos
karimwassef
Active member
So, if my theory above is true, then I think restarting the tank with the same sand and rocks (especially sand) will always generate the same dinos. The same source of locally available nitrogen gas and a seed population of dinos will restart the process unless you introduce a competing nitrogen fixing agent- like phyto - in such excess, that they limit the dino explosion.
One way to prove this theory is to remove the denitrifying elements as much as possible or pass their output through a chamber to export the nitrogen gas before returning to the tank. Basically, this supports removing the live sand completely as a potential solution.
One way to prove this theory is to remove the denitrifying elements as much as possible or pass their output through a chamber to export the nitrogen gas before returning to the tank. Basically, this supports removing the live sand completely as a potential solution.
karimwassef
Active member
That might be coincidence? I don't think we've connected a broken heater or current to dinos before. I don't see an earlier post?
You'll want to confirm that you have dinos first.
Quiet_Ivy
New member
Karim, your description of the N cycle in tanks is correct but I think you are being confused by papers talking about "N" when they mean nitrate/ammonia or nitrite. Nitrogen gas is already present in the aquarium at very high concentrations, because it is 80% of our air. Increasing flow would probably increase the net amount of N2 gas. Dinos and plants can't do anything with N2, nitrogen gas. Dinos can use (almost) every form of nitrogen *except* N gas. They probably prefer inorganic (ammonia, etc) forms of nitrogen because they don't require processing to be useful.
Cyano CAN fix its own usable nitrogen from N2 gas. (This may be its claim to fame in the ocean) It probably likes the sandbed because there's more available phosphate in the low-flow spots where detritus accumulates. We see cyano before dinos because environments with very low available nitrate/nitrite/ammonia are hostile to green plants, and cyano is making its own N. It also stores phosphate. The dinos associate (or eat, or even farm) the cyano and other bacteria, taking advantage of the P and N. Dinos can therefore take advantage of the organically-bound nitrogen in the bacteria cells, plus they can suck up inorganic nitrate/etc from the water. Dinos switch strategies according to local conditions, so if the aquarist is actively reducing available inorganic (ammonia, nitrate) nitrogen, they will predate on bacteria more.
So you're right that bacteria may be part of the problem, but really there is no practical way to sterilize a reef tank without killing *everything*. UV doesn't affect surface-living bacteria, and I saw an AA article saying it doesn't actually affect the pelagic populations much because bacteria can reproduce so quickly.
hth and the chem gurus will correct me if I'm wrong,
Ivy
PS interesting note in that paper! Ostreopsis stops/reduces its toxin production under low nitrogen conditions. So taking up all the available nitrogen by competition (dirty) or direct removal (clean) may make dinos less problematic. Also, diatoms can have symbiosis with cyano. Didn't know that either, cool.
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I agree that there's lots of nitrogen available in our systems from the air. Some species of cyanobacteria can fix nitrogen from the air, but it's never been shown that they do so in our tanks, not to an appreciable degree. I don't think that denitrification is the issue in dinoflagellate problems.
I agree that part of the problem might lie in symbiotic relationships or microbial films, but I don't know what we can do about that. As stated, controlling bacteria and keeping the reef tank alive is going to be difficult to impossible.
I agree that part of the problem might lie in symbiotic relationships or microbial films, but I don't know what we can do about that. As stated, controlling bacteria and keeping the reef tank alive is going to be difficult to impossible.
reefcentral123
In Memoriam
it is a sign that it could be dinos, since at night when there's no light they are free floating so you won't see them on surfaces anymore. the only way to know 100% it's dinos is to get a microscope and put a sample from your tank on a slide
sometimes the dinos return, then what? I was thinking of bailing on my tank if after a month the dinos were still there. after about a week or two of the dirty method, bacteria dosing, phyto and pod dosing, UV, and no water changes, adding more live rock and cermedia block I am 100% dino free. my rocks are virgin, not a spot of brown goo on them.
reefcentral123
In Memoriam
yeah i know. the only remaining dino is on one of my SPS, a very tiny amount on the tips that just won't go away. I dipped the coral yesterday and now it's a lot better but not completely cured.
Fish Keeper82
New member
Interesting update from post 2979 .
Found something I was totally unexpecting to find.
DNA's comment on UV not working on Ostreopis is what lead me to look under the scope again since starting to use UV sterilization just to reconfirm i have Ostreopsis. Maybe I had two types of dinos and didn't know it. That turned out to be the case but not as I expected.
After looking under the scope for about 2 hours today, I found no traces at all of Ostreopsis. Ostreopsis is all i ever saw before installing UV so i never checked after they initially got under control. That seed looking Dino with tetherball motion that I described about in my previous posts is no longer there. These other dinos that I have now are more round and there swimming motion is nothing like the tetherball. This new dinoflagellate has more of a burst swimming motion in no particular pattern.
As I stated before my return pump broke and my UV sterilizer along with all my other equipment in my sump was offline for 4 days or so and dinos expectedly grew. After I got my return pump in I did a three day lights out with UV. When the lights came back on Dino's did get knocked back quite a bit but nowhere near as the first go round when I absolutely knew for sure it was Ostreopsis. This new Dinoflagellate as I stated in my previous post is only a dusting and has never made any strings since UV was sinstalled.
So in an unexpected result slow flow UV killed my Osteopsis and now another type has taken its place and seems to not make strings and stay more on the sand. Even when my return pump was out i never saw strings just heavy dusting.
So just a heads up... if you havent looked under the scope in a while it might be valuable info to take a recent look.
If i ever set up a youtube account ill post the videos
Found something I was totally unexpecting to find.
DNA's comment on UV not working on Ostreopis is what lead me to look under the scope again since starting to use UV sterilization just to reconfirm i have Ostreopsis. Maybe I had two types of dinos and didn't know it. That turned out to be the case but not as I expected.
After looking under the scope for about 2 hours today, I found no traces at all of Ostreopsis. Ostreopsis is all i ever saw before installing UV so i never checked after they initially got under control. That seed looking Dino with tetherball motion that I described about in my previous posts is no longer there. These other dinos that I have now are more round and there swimming motion is nothing like the tetherball. This new dinoflagellate has more of a burst swimming motion in no particular pattern.
As I stated before my return pump broke and my UV sterilizer along with all my other equipment in my sump was offline for 4 days or so and dinos expectedly grew. After I got my return pump in I did a three day lights out with UV. When the lights came back on Dino's did get knocked back quite a bit but nowhere near as the first go round when I absolutely knew for sure it was Ostreopsis. This new Dinoflagellate as I stated in my previous post is only a dusting and has never made any strings since UV was sinstalled.
So in an unexpected result slow flow UV killed my Osteopsis and now another type has taken its place and seems to not make strings and stay more on the sand. Even when my return pump was out i never saw strings just heavy dusting.
So just a heads up... if you havent looked under the scope in a while it might be valuable info to take a recent look.
If i ever set up a youtube account ill post the videos
seamonster124
New member
Quick test u can do; suck the string out with turkey baster. Place in a cup and stir till dissolved. If u have dinos, string-like formation occurs again within 1-4 hours inside the cup
