Dinoflagellates.

[joti26]

Had lights back on and seems it is still lurking tiny bits on Kenya tree tonight but just had enormous fun with my Dino tank-I emptied the contents of my filter sock really just to see how many if any pods it caught (I should have been a biologist) all the greyish powdery stuff settled to the bottom in a mat with a couple of stringy bits on the surface. Well just put a bit of polylab medic (powdered hydrogen peroxide I think it says peroxide salt) in to see what happened and within seconds it all peeled off the bottom into a sort of sculptural vertical mat and is now a big lump hanging from the surface. Still resisting using it but now very tempted to see if it will finally help clear it from the rocks and sand bed. I might have to do it again as it was pretty impressive to watch lol! Don't know if it has killed them as had to give the microscope back. I have found the war on Dino's fascinating and I am almost beginning to wonder if I will miss it when I have finally conquered them lol!

 

[machodik]

Dinoflagellates.

Quick test u can do; suck the string out with turkey baster. Place in a cup and stir till dissolved. If u have dinos, string-like formation occurs again within 1-4 hours inside the cup

Good advise , specially for person like me that now no access to Microscope (I use them a lot before when I was a medical technologist then) .

Will try and report back then. So if they don't go back to string formation then it may be the thin film algae resulted from scrapping glass wall?

Cheers,


MD

 

[karimwassef]

Ok so dinos don't fix nitrogen but they thrive with with the bacteria who do. So, the rest of the logic still holds, it's just that the dinos have a partner in crime with cyano.

The remedies are also the same.

In that case, phyto is also a nitrogen fixer and competes with the cyano/dino crime pair.

 

[karimwassef]

There is a lot of nitrogen gas in our water, but it may not take a lot more to tip the scale. The excess from denitrification may be sufficient.

Based on the posts and articles, it looks like cyano and phyto do fix nitrogen in our tanks. I'll post some references.

 

[taricha]

counter-point: This paper presents and cites evidence of LOW N (relative to P) being good conditions for Dino bloom, and HIGH N to P ratio as favoring other competitors.

Highest abundance of Scrippsiella-like dinoflagellate (249×106cells/L),peridinin (109 mg/m3), and concentration of phosphate (3.6μM) were related to a low N ratio (0.64). N ratios below the Redfield proportion(16:1) are associated with optimal growth of phytoplankton. Under experimental conditions in shrimp ponds, an N ratio of 5:1 appears optimal for growth of diatoms (Tamayo et al. 2003). In commercial shrimp ponds, the microalgal families Chlorophyceae, Cyanophyceae, and Bacillariophyceaewere dominant and present when N ratios are 1.45"“2.12 (Tamayo et al.2003). Clifford (1992) concluded that ponds with low N ratios encourage cyanobacteria and ponds with high N ratios encourage growth of diatoms and that low ratios are associated with red tides (Hodgkiss & Ho 1997;Anderson et al. 2002; Smayda 2005). Hodgkiss & Yang (2001) report that, when Tolo Harbor in Hong Kong has N ratios below∼10:1, dinoflagellates increase.
In coastal ponds of Tunisia, when the usually high N ratios decrease in autumn, the dinoflagellate Gyrodinium aureolum proliferates and frequently kills farmed fishes (Anderson et al. 2002). The most frequent N ratio in shrimp farms around the Gulf of Mexico is in the range of 1.1"“6.8 (Alonso-Rodríguez et al. 2000). It is likely that phytoplankton, such as diatoms, were not dominant because of low nitrates and low silicate concentrations (Smayda 1997). Silicates were not determined in this study. In theory, when silicate con-centrations are low, diatom populations decline, while phytoplankton that use excess N and P increase (Anderson et al. 2002; Smayda 2005). Lee et al.(2003) suggested that enrichment of sediment ponds with silicon and trace metals encourages high production of diatoms and might control growth of dinoflagellates in ponds.

 

[bertoni]

I'd be interested in reading about nitrogen fixation in our tanks, if you have links.

 

[taricha]

Regarding ideas to scrap everything and start over I ran across a couple of things that gave me the impression that Ammonia (in doses fatal to livestock of course) could be toxic to dinos but not all bacteria.

I don't remember what I was reading, but this would seem - if true - to wipe out Dinos and establish a strong competitive population in their place.

 

[reefcentral123]

Interesting update from post 2979 .
Found something I was totally unexpecting to find.
DNA's comment on UV not working on Ostreopis is what lead me to look under the scope again since starting to use UV sterilization just to reconfirm i have Ostreopsis. Maybe I had two types of dinos and didn't know it. That turned out to be the case but not as I expected.
After looking under the scope for about 2 hours today, I found no traces at all of Ostreopsis. Ostreopsis is all i ever saw before installing UV so i never checked after they initially got under control. That seed looking Dino with tetherball motion that I described about in my previous posts is no longer there. These other dinos that I have now are more round and there swimming motion is nothing like the tetherball. This new dinoflagellate has more of a burst swimming motion in no particular pattern.
As I stated before my return pump broke and my UV sterilizer along with all my other equipment in my sump was offline for 4 days or so and dinos expectedly grew. After I got my return pump in I did a three day lights out with UV. When the lights came back on Dino's did get knocked back quite a bit but nowhere near as the first go round when I absolutely knew for sure it was Ostreopsis. This new Dinoflagellate as I stated in my previous post is only a dusting and has never made any strings since UV was sinstalled.
So in an unexpected result slow flow UV killed my Osteopsis and now another type has taken its place and seems to not make strings and stay more on the sand. Even when my return pump was out i never saw strings just heavy dusting.
So just a heads up... if you havent looked under the scope in a while it might be valuable info to take a recent look.
If i ever set up a youtube account ill post the videos

I also saw two species of dino under the scope. Ostreopsis and a species that would do a 360 degree spin then burst forward like you described. I see no more visible dinos so no point in me checking anymore but just so you know ur not alone

 

[DNA]

There are 2000 types of Dinos and they are not all the same.
They are in cold water that tends to be nutrient high as well as tropical waters.
At least some dinos have been associated with rise nutrients.

 

[machodik]

Dinoflagellates.

There are 2000 types of Dinos and they are not all the same.
They are in cold water that tends to be nutrient high as well as tropical waters.
At least some dinos have been associated with rise nutrients.

So in ULNS dinos or cyano are more likely non existence?

 

[karimwassef]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3849724/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3574386/
http://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-7-55
https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/inde...ia_(cyanobionts)_living_in_marine_environment

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/107/m107p083.pdf
Ok - so this one might throw you off because it sounds like it's going the other way... but the argument is actually that the dinos provide preferable conditions during limited N periods so the cyano can more efficiently fix N for the dinos to consume. So... they are thriving on the nitrogen fixation engine... that's their food supply. That was my read of it, anyway.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/4/chemistry
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/nitrogen_cycle.html
http://urbansage.com/cyano.html
http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/07/blue-green-algae-in-aquariums.html

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/f1x6lB1j42I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
one of my favs:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BosHU4ARR9w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9eEpgSvnMrA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/uU00tg98Jjw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5zg06_SR8Z0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zisABwEfv54" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kPxExG-FbvI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DWItFGRQJL4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[karimwassef]

Here's a basic fast view on the N and P cycles for those who want it
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/leHy-Y_8nRs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[taricha]

So in ULNS dinos or cyano are more likely non existence?

Not true. Many people in this thread got dinos while approaching very low nutrients "green hair algae disappeared and dinos appeared"

 

[joti26]

Not true. Many people in this thread got dinos while approaching very low nutrients "green hair algae disappeared and dinos appeared"

There does seem to be a lot of variables and this thread has been so interesting and I'm amazed that no one in the aqua world has done a proper study. I reckon an answer could be found if everyone was surveyed. I had high nutrients and at one point nitrate was at 50 so for me the 'dirty' method obviously made no difference. Different types seem to react in different ways mine changed several times, I did have cyano and algae vanished. Plants including cheato stopped growing and was where I had a lot of Dino's collecting. Some corals suffered more than others. Mine loved the power heads and the mesh on the wier. They also accumulated in any areas of flow and filter media. I never realised the greyish dust was Dino's either, getting as much of that out has also helped. I do think keeping them water borne with lights out plus the UV and 10 micron socks has been key. My little experiment with the hydrogen peroxide last night was interesting in that suddenly it all raised up into the water also leading me to think that this action helps keep it in the water.

 

[Quiet_Ivy]

In that case, phyto is also a nitrogen fixer and competes with the cyano/dino crime pair.

No offence but are you possibly confusing fixing nitrogen with assimilating nitrogen? Your ref list in the other post doesn't have anything on non-bacterial phytoplankton fixing N. Well, diatoms but we don't dose those.

Mostly to clarify for people reading along- the "phyto" we hobbyists dose into our tanks is one or more species of green algae. Our phyto cannot fix nitrogen. Living algae can use up lots of free floating already-fixed nitrogen (ammonia, nitrate, etc) and is a good food source for pods. Adding phyto helps a lot vs dinos and even dead phyto seems to be good.

hth
ivy (dosing silica is on my list of things to try actually)

 

[bertoni]

I agree that there might be some confusion between nitrogen uptake and nitrogen fixing.

The links provided discuss the general mechanism of nitrogen, but they don't provide any quantification of the amount of nitrogen that might actually be fixed in an aquarium, for the ones that mention aquariums at all.

 

[taricha]

Your ref list in the other post doesn't have anything on non-bacterial phytoplankton fixing N. Well, diatoms but we don't dose those.

ivy (dosing silica is on my list of things to try actually)

It's on my list too. I'm debating where to put it on the list.
My other current idea is to attempt to deplete trace metals while keeping N and P moderate/elevated.
That might take a while to test though.

Also still cultivating a sandbed in a separate 10g tank for a possible sandbed transplant. Taking longer than expected to mature but progressing.

 

[karimwassef]

I was focused on cyano fixing N... I assumed phyto did the same, but didn't really look into it.

The cyano/bad dino symbiotic action is still key. With the cyano fixing N and dino feeding.

 

[bertoni]

Are you saying that the cyanobacteria fix nitrogen and the dinoflagellates feed on the cyanobacteria?

 

[triksrevival]

Thanks for all of you on this thread posting you trials and errors, I've been looking here daily for advise and I'm finally winning the war. I got dinos back in late Nov-Dec from an online distributor that came with a sea hare. I looked for a quick fix that came as dino-x and a 4 day black out. All the dinos disappeared, but came back 2 days later. I followed some of your advise and got a 13W UV, stopped water changes, turned off my return pump and dosed 20ml of phytoplankton daily, dosed MB7 every other day, and added a ton of pods. A month ago everything was covered and I was contemplating starting over, now they are in a couple places in the display that I suck out nightly, less and less each day. I had Ostreopsis, confirmed with a microscope.