Dinoflagellates.

Chaeto died when dinos came in.
Others with ATS had the ATS die when dinos came in.
dinos dont kill GHA. maybe the dinos covered them up but it didn't kill it.
That is simple enough. The cure, then, is to raise the level of nutrients to where the ATS or chaeto can begin to fight back by consuming the nutrients. Unfortunately, you could also just be feeding the dinos. In my case, the UV stopped that. The non-free floating algae started to feed and the dinos died.
So it was a helpful tool for you but by it's self not the reason for your success.
Sand is key to the nitrogen cycle, ammonia-nitrite-nitrate-N2 gas... etc...
No bacteria is and sand helps keep high populations of it because of its large surface area.
Sand is also in my sand bed. The detritus eaters consume animal waste that would become rank in the tank. Their waste is smaller and easier to extract with flow. That's where the skimmer picks it up... export again.
So your skimmer is a export mechanism not your sand bed.
The trick is to raise the N and P level up to where those competitors have a fighting chance while knocking the dinos down.
Not necessarily true.
C change = "sea change" = we have come to refer to a sea change as being a profound transformation caused by any agency
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-sea1.htm
When using the short hand C people are usually referring to carbon.

Everything in my tank eats everything. My corals eat, my worms and pods eat, my phyto eats... who cares as long as I provide a source of food?
My point is that it eventually breaks down into N & P. This is food for dinos if there is nothing else to eat it.
...with NO algae and corals growing so fast I have to give them away.
You just said you had algae, pick one. "non-free floating algae started to feed and the dinos died."
Alien species is meant to explain that they're incompatible with the other food chain... that begins with normal algae. They are not algae.
The food chain is all about what eats what. Dinos eat N & P and so does GHA so they are in the same category.
 
You've convinced yourself and it really doesn't help other people. You focus on semantics when I think my point is clear to everyone else.

If it's important for you to feel that you're right, then you're not interested in helping others. That's a shame.

For example: Having algae in my ATS isn't the same having algae in my DT. I'm sure you understand this, but you decide to focus on this minutia that adds no value to others, just to jab at a clear and useful comment I made.

Another example: dinos starve algae or chaeto.. Killing them. Does it matter that they did it without attacking the algae? No. Again, minuscule focus on specific words instead of helping others...

One more: detritus eaters in the sand make the skimmer a better exporter... So what? I already said it's a cooperative effort. The Nitrogen export from denitrification is export, but you missed that. And while you know that bacteria lives in the sand, you find it important to point out that it's the bacteria, not the sand... Again, why does it matter? You focus on the words when everyone reading this thread knows that bacteria enables the N cycle and that bacteria lives in the sand. Who are you helping?
 
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How does it feel knowing that you can cause massive suffering to others by dismissing a potent tool that didn't work for you? I hope your ego sleeps well at night. :)
 
Scientists working in the field have often mentioned the dinos hanging on to algae, but I've never witnessed that.

I dug one of these reports up again and it said benthic, and by that I think they mean short turf like algae and that I have seen plenty of.

I've never seen dinos on my caulerpa, chaeato or other algae that does not stay close to the ground.
 
I dug one of these reports up again and it said benthic, and by that I think they mean short turf like algae and that I have seen plenty of.

I've never seen dinos on my caulerpa, chaeato or other algae that does not stay close to the ground.

The algae completely vanished from my tank and my cheato completely stopped growing and started falling apart. It was the main breeding ground for it as I discovered when I got the microscope. Dino's certainly seemed to cling to it and it actually looked like it was even inside it.
 
A lot of the food will end up in the water column eventually, possibly as "output" from various animals. Some of that will be removed by the skimmer or incorporated into algae that's exported (if any algae trimming is done). The rest will become mineralized nutrients like nitrate and phosphate. The percentage will vary from tank to tank.

I'm not sure how much filtration the sandbed actually performs. That also will vary from system to system, but a number of people have removed sandbags and not noticed much difference in the water parameters. Likewise, Randy added a macro algae refugium and saw his sandbed seem to reduce its production of nitrogen or oxygen, or both.
 
I would like to start dosing nitrates as I feel this is what most people are doing to rid of the dinoflagellates. How do I do it? Where do I get a bottle of nitrate. Is it potassium nitrate?
 
I would like to start dosing nitrates as I feel this is what most people are doing to rid of the dinoflagellates. How do I do it? Where do I get a bottle of nitrate. Is it potassium nitrate?


I use. Look it up.
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I've had enough Chetomorpha in the tank to fill two stuffed shopping bags, but it didn't have any impact.
A few times the thought has occurred to me to move it to the display
From what I've seen with the macros in my tank - having looked through the microscope at the sandbed for hours before and after the macroalgae was dropped in. To say there's 10x more benthic fauna of 5x as many species as without the macro likely severely understates the case. And I was going "dirty method" before the macros went in.
side note: weeks ago when the dino outbreak was young, I coudn't find any dino predators in the tank or the fuge, or skimmer or algae sandbed I cultured. Now, everywhere I look, every sample has a handful of different organisms eating dinos.
And the locations of dinos/cyano retreat and reappearance says that proximity to algae is a strong factor.

One could speculate the rise in Nitrates and Phosphates could be the effect rather than the cause of the dinos crashing and this instant signs of better tank health is something I've witnessed several times and reported in this thread.

Possible, but it seems really unlikely.
My tank had been holding steady at pre-dose numbers of 10+ NO3 and 0.20+ PO4 - last test on 3/4, with daily doses of 10ppm NO3 and 0.20ppm PO4. I continued this dosing along with feeding every day. I dosed and fed up to and including Friday 3/11,
Here's what my a section of my sandbed looked like on 3/11
https://goo.gl/photos/SgBdove54yMfqApT9
Light brown amphidinium/cyano dusting in the sand. Not mass globs of snot that would nuke a tank in die-off.

on Sat 3/12 and Sun 3/13 I didn't dose. I only had time to throw in 1-2 cubes of food and a couple of pinches of flake both days.
Then Mon 3/14 my sand is clean and my NO3 is 30, and my PO4 tests 0.50.

To put 0.50 PO4 in scale, my system is 245Liters (65 gal) so that's 122mg of PO4 or 40mg of P, which is the equivalent of 50g (dry weight) Caulerpa or 890grams (2.0 pounds!) wet weight. I promise I didn't have a half a pound or a pound or two pounds of caulerpa - or anything else - die in my tank without my noticing.

It seems incredibly unlikely that I added 10 NO3 and 0.20 PO4 doses every day up through Friday, and then over Saturday & Sunday while getting a couple of cubes and several pinches of flakes my tank crashed N or P to zero so violently, it killed off something on the scale of a pound or two of living stuff and broke it down back into N and P in the water column by Mon.

It seems much more plausible, in my opinion, that in some tanks when algae/whatever "outcompetes" dinos into reduction - or more likely, reduction by slowing their growth below predation rate, it might be outcompeting dinos for elements other than N and P. Especially since a lot of the tanks in question are by their own admission trying to keep a "dirty" - high N and P - state.

Maybe we get fixated on N and P because that's what we can measure and control. (just look at my routine for example) There's a fairly common fallacy in science that probably has a name - "whatever I can measure must be the most important factor." But I think it's possible we might be missing that the real action shaping the composition of the algal community is trace elements - at least under "dirty method" conditions.

Like RHF said a short while back - 800 posts ago (!)
...I'm not sure that all of the successful treatments (or nontreatments) don't simply work because they take away something important to the particular species of dinos that you have.
People should remember that dinos, like algae and most photosynthetic pests need ALL of a source of N, P, Fe, many other trace metals, light, space to grow on, etc.
Take away any ONE of them and the dinos will be gone.
The trick is to find which of those is easiest to reduce while still permitting an adequate amount for other tank inhabitants (since they too need ALL of these).
Keeping a dirty tank and finding the dinos decline may simply mean high levels of bacteria that are present are out competing the dinos for some trace element.
 
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Didn't mean to hurt you feelings and I am here to help, whether you agree with me or not is another story. I feel like I have lots of useful experience dealing with and eliminating dinos. I thought we were having a conversation not a heated argument... guess not.

I also think that the things I mention have value to the conversation. For example if dinos flat out kill algae then my idea would be useless but they don't.

My point about sand beds is not directly related to dinos but I was trying to make the point that people have BB tanks and have healthy systems... also a sand bed is probably not that big of a factor when it comes to eliminating dinos.

Also in my opinion there is little difference between algae on a screen vs in the DT except for the nutrient uptake is much higher on a properly set up ATS. I was asking if you had any algae growing anywhere in the tank (screen, glass, rock, powerhead etc.) at the time you eliminated the dinos.

I'm also open minded to all theories and if there is sufficient evidence I would be more than happy to switch any of my views. I have first hand experience also... I'm not just reading a book and regurgitating the information.

The UV is fine, it can be a good tool. The idea behind UV is to knock back dinos while giving way to other competition. This could also be done in other ways, maybe even better ways, like for instance sucking them out with air line tube. That would export dinos while ensuring no die off. This however is not addressing the root of the problem. If competition never increases dinos will still live. So there needs to be some way to do this. Either with chaeto if it works, increasing nutrients to allow GHA in the DT, or adding an algae scrubber to be able to grow algae in a low nutrient environment.
 
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My reaction was to the nitpicking on semantics when the point was clear.

I agree that we need competition and algae is the best competition.

I don't agree that it works without first creating an opportunity for the algae to take "root". To be clear- this is figurative language, not intended for a deep dive into the attachment mechanisms of algae.

Manual dino removal has not been effective in knocking them back based on the responses in this thread. Again- figurative language. This isn't a description of physical force acting on dinos.

Slow UV + dark + skimmer export has been effective in knocking them back.

I am an advocate of ATS. I am an advocate of UV. I think either alone is insufficient for a long term "cure". Please no debate on the term "cure".

IME, kicking them back and giving ATS or chaeto or phyto a leg up (these creatures don't have legs- to be clear) is the key.
 
Just an update for me:

Been feeding heavy for 5 days now, skimmer has also been turned off.

The Bad:
-Dinos have proliferated, about double the amount
-Red Dragon RTN'd
-Small Ich outbreak on one of my clowns

The Good:
-I actually see a few specks of coraline growth starting on my dirty dino covered powerheads and overflow. Tank has been up 8 months and have had zero coraline growth this whole time. I suppose coraline is an algae, so it makes sense there was a lack of growth when my nutrients were probably too low this whole time. Finally pleased to see coraline grow...
-A small amount of GHA is now growing in my refugium, next to my chaeto - although cheato growth is stagnant...can't get it to grow still...
-Tank glass finally has a haze again to it - hopefully I am getting some phosphates - although the haze is whitish/cloud like, not the typical green or brown dusting...but its something...don't think I've had to clean my glass in weeks, will leave it be for now, as it sounds like anything could help out compete the dinos at this point.

Phosphate and Nitrate still reading 0.

My theory surrounds dinos thriving when there is an imbalance between phosphate and nitrate. This tank was plagued with pale sps corals, so I began dosing nitrate, I got them up to 5 ppm, but then noticed the glass was spotless and never needing cleaning, hence my phosphates likely dove down severely - the next day dinos began.

This dirty approach has been hard to watch my tank go through, but I think its necessary. There is no question that the clean approach can be equally harmful to my tank inhabitants, because stability goes out the window some. If I can keep my fish alive and corals from dying back further, I will be happy. I just have this feeling I need to keep feeding to get through the ugly stage to come out on top.

My first tank 10 years ago was the most successful. The one difference I have noticed with it compared to all the rest, was that the tank had a hard, hard, hard, cycle - it got very ugly, algae blooms everywhere, back to back, etc. My last 3 tanks have never had such hard cycles. It almost seems perhaps the dinos have appeared because I never fully cycled this tank. I can't even get a nitrate reading for crying out loud. My first tank, which was most successful, always had nitrate readings that I was trying to drive down.

just sharing some random thoughts - It helps me to write things down as I feel like I am in some dino therapy of some sort.
 
Have you used UV at all?

Another question - who here uses metal halides and has dinos that do not dissociate into the water column at night?
 
Slow UV + dark + skimmer export has been effective in knocking them back.

Would anyone else be interested at attempting to knock dynos back with screen/scrubber as I mentioned in a few posts? It's by no means a cure, an I am doing what's suggested in this thread for a permanent removal, but in my observation it's working to at lease control the population.

Last night, as of day 4, I observed no dynos at all on rock and sandbed, and much less dynos on the screen then prior days. My estimate is that 3/4 to 90% of dynos are gone. Best part, I still have 400 watts of lights over the tank, no dark period required at all.

If anyone's interested, please let me know I can send you some screen, I have a 50ft roll of it. I didn't see responses to my updates, so I didn't post yesterday as I figured no one was interested.
 
Would anyone else be interested at attempting to knock dynos back with screen/scrubber as I mentioned in a few posts? It's by no means a cure, an I am doing what's suggested in this thread for a permanent removal, but in my observation it's working to at lease control the population.

Last night, as of day 4, I observed no dynos at all on rock and sandbed, and much less dynos on the screen then prior days. My estimate is that 3/4 to 90% of dynos are gone. Best part, I still have 400 watts of lights over the tank, no dark period required at all.

If anyone's interested, please let me know I can send you some screen, I have a 50ft roll of it. I didn't see responses to my updates, so I didn't post yesterday as I figured no one was interested.

I don't have any but I think any effective dino export mechanism should be evaluated. There was an attempt a few pages ago with a lot section with a lights out system but it didn't work.

If you use their behavior to capture and export them preferentially, then it should work. They multiply so quickly and absorb nutrients so fast that it's hard to just compete.
 
Very cool find. What is the net material? Link?
I wonder if it's the unoccupied territory that causes them to prefer it (would they do the same to a dish of new sand?) Or if it's the massive flow they react to.
Is the screen heavily lit?

Have you an ID for your dinos? If not, get them under a scope.
 
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