Dinos again!!!!!!! I think I have beaten them for good, but still need some help!

[ReefMaster48]

So. If you have followed some of my posts, you know that I have been battling dinoflagellates for a few months. Got so bad that I tried a freshwater nuke. Took ALL livestock out, emptied the tank, freshwater dipped rock, filled tank with only freshwater before mixing in salt, then installed everything over the course of some time. Just this past few days, guess what! The dinos came back.

So. Once again, I nuked the tank lol. But not like nice nuke, like very. well. umm. passionate nuked the tank. I took ALL livestock out, then dosed H2O2. About 3 quarts.... Think I am crazy yet? I bet you do! lol However, I can attest that it has worked so far. Dinos have been killed (visibly) and all other life seems to have died too. Pods (what were left after the freshwater dips), algae, all bacteria I am sure, and rocks are basically bone white.

So. Here is my question. I know that people dose H2O2 (not in qt though, usally in ml), but how long until it wears off and I can start rebuilding my good bacteria? Will it? Do I need to run a ton of carbon? Large WC already planned. Not a chemist, so I do not know how it will effect it long term with wearing off or not. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!


Tank: 40 breeder, 20L sump

PS, believe me, I know that this was a drastic measure and possibly risky. However, I wanted these dinos gone, and think I have accomplished it. I hope......


Oh! Almost forgot. Any experience dipping corals in freshwater and or H2O2? I do not want to re-introduce the dinos. Even going to get rid of my macros just to be safe.

 

[ReefNomad]

That's one way to do it!
Your peroxide should completely neutralize over the course of 48 to 72 hours, depending on your flow and aeration. It dissipates via exchange with both water and air, so more exposure to both shortens the time.
You'll technically begin rebuilding your cycle even before the peroxide is completely dissipated, since the organics left from the peroxide nuke are a perfect carbon source, but if you're considering adding supplemental bacteria you may want to wait until a few days have passed.
Bear in mind, post-nuke you're going to experience a harsh diatom bloom as your cycle reasserts itself.

 

[sde1500]

Or you could let a new tank do what a new tank does. These drastic and constant "nukings" does nothing good for a new tank.

The only corals that tolerate H202 dippings are zoas really.

 

[ReefMaster48]

Or you could let a new tank do what a new tank does. These drastic and constant "nukings" does nothing good for a new tank.

The only corals that tolerate H202 dippings are zoas really.

Dinos are not always the result of a new tank. And I believe that these were brought into the tank, not started by a new tank. But thanks again!

Actually after some more research, it appears that a number of people have dipped all corals in H2O2 dilutions without death. Still a risk, but I'll have to take it unless i want the dinos again. Better to have a dead coral then a take of dinos again. :sad1:

 

[ReefMaster48]

That's one way to do it!
Your peroxide should completely neutralize over the course of 48 to 72 hours, depending on your flow and aeration. It dissipates via exchange with both water and air, so more exposure to both shortens the time.
You'll technically begin rebuilding your cycle even before the peroxide is completely dissipated, since the organics left from the peroxide nuke are a perfect carbon source, but if you're considering adding supplemental bacteria you may want to wait until a few days have passed.
Bear in mind, post-nuke you're going to experience a harsh diatom bloom as your cycle reasserts itself.

Awesome! thank you very much! Super helpful!

Im ok with diatoms! lol just not dinos. Hopefully this is the last battle though. :thumbsup:

 

[sde1500]

Dinos are not always the result of a new tank. And I believe that these were brought into the tank, not started by a new tank. But thanks again!

Sure they aren't, but they show up in almost every new tank. Maintaining proper parameters and working to keep the tank clean and stable goes a long ways towards success. Your tank hasn't been stable since it has been set up, because of the knee jerk reaction towards nuking, which inherently does not allow the tank to become established and stable.

 

[slief]

Or you could let a new tank do what a new tank does. These drastic and constant "nukings" does nothing good for a new tank.

Sure they aren't, but they show up in almost every new tank. Maintaining proper parameters and working to keep the tank clean and stable goes a long ways towards success. Your tank hasn't been stable since it has been set up, because of the knee jerk reaction towards nuking, which inherently does not allow the tank to become established and stable.

+1.

30+ years in this hobby and having setup countless salt water tanks in that time and I have to agree with you 100%. I've have seen dino's in plenty of new tanks and this includes a number of new tanks that I setup with dead rock. New tanks go through all kinds of changes over the first 12 months during why various algae blooms and even dino can be expected. This is a normal process of a tank becoming mature. I normally wait 4-5 months before introducing the first soft corals into a new system. Sometimes longer. I avoid doing major water changes on a new tank and keep the fish load very low for the first several months to reduce these kinds of issues and help speed up the algae cycles that come and go. I also maintain minimal lighting during the first few months to reduce algae blooms. Continually making changes to a new system and changing out water does nothing to help the tanks maturity.

 

[ReefMaster48]

Y'all are talking about dinoflagellates not diatoms, right? Just checking.

Yes, dinos can be common and easily contained in a new tank. I agree with that.

However, that is not always the case, we know that. Many a reefers have gotten dinos years after their setup. That's all I was saying.

Nevertheless, when the dinos are growing incredibly fast, covering all the rock, and all the corals, when you have perfect params and everything is seemingly in order, would you recommend leaving it be? I would not. As I did, I am gonna go crazy on it. Give me GHA, or any other type, and I'll be good. Heck, even cyano. But dinos? They've got to go IMO.

 

[slief]

Y'all are talking about dinoflagellates not diatoms, right? Just checking.

Yes, dinos can be common and easily contained in a new tank. I agree with that.

However, that is not always the case, we know that. Many a reefers have gotten dinos years after their setup. That's all I was saying.

Nevertheless, when the dinos are growing incredibly fast, covering all the rock, and all the corals, when you have perfect params and everything is seemingly in order, would you recommend leaving it be? I would not. As I did, I am gonna go crazy on it. Give me GHA, or any other type, and I'll be good. Heck, even cyano. But dinos? They've got to go IMO.

Yep. On a newly setup tank, I would Siphon as much as out possible, blast th rocks and let it run it’s cycle because it pretty much always goes away on it’s own. If I wanted to rush it, I’d either add a UV sterilzer or dose hydrogen peroxide.

And yes, people do get them after years of being setup but that is often a husbandry issue.

 

[slief]

Another way to attack it is to manually remove as much as possible by siphoning and blasting the rocks. Then increase pH to about 8.4. You can use kalk to do this. Black the tank out for 3 days meaning wrap it with something to prevent light from coming in, cover it and shut the lights off. It’s important to run your skimmer during this time and also have carbon in the system. Once the blackout is done, follow up with a couple large water changes.

In a mature tank, dino’s are usually the result of excess nutrients which is why I mentioned husbandry about. Again, Dino’s are easy to beat and usually don’t require rebooting the tank and it’s VERY common in new tanks that aren’t biologically established. There is more to a mature system than just the initial nitrogen cycle.

 

[ReefMaster48]

Another way to attack it is to manually remove as much as possible by siphoning and blasting the rocks. Then increase pH to about 8.4. You can use kalk to do this. Black the tank out for 3 days meaning wrap it with something to prevent light from coming in, cover it and shut the lights off. It's important to run your skimmer during this time and also have carbon in the system. Once the blackout is done, follow up with a couple large water changes.

In a mature tank, dino's are usually the result of excess nutrients which is why I mentioned husbandry about. Again, Dino's are easy to beat and usually don't require rebooting the tank and it's VERY common in new tanks that aren't biologically established. There is more to a mature system than just the initial nitrogen cycle.

I actually tried all of those methods... lol

The trouble with dinos, is that they are not applicable to one situation. New tanks can get them just as simply as old tanks; and there is no data to show that nutrients do or do not create dinos. For example, there are countless people having dinos with higher nitrates and or phosphates; but there is also just as many people without the nutrients that still get them. I have combed through tons of articles and threads on people's experience with dinos, and it is hard to find a common "cause" or inhibitor. Quite simply, they don't discriminate.

 

[nikon187]

i have never seen dinos in a tank with their nutrients in check or undetectable. They dont just appear out of nowhere, there is always a cause. Wait a cpl days, hit it with bacteria, and on it goes.

 

[slief]

I actually tried all of those methods... lol

So you raised your pH to 8.4? And you tried a UV sterilzer too?


I’ve never had an issue ridding a tank of dino’s and as I said, I have been dealing with marine aquariums for 30 years now. In fact, I’ve had my current tank for over 25 years and it’s been up and running non stop at this house to over 20 years after moving it from my previous house. I’m no stranger to dino’s as I have encountered many systems that had it at one point or another. My guess is that you didn’t try all the methods I’ve mentioned because if you did, you more than likely wouldn't have started this thread because you would have beat your dino problem. There is nothing magical about dino’s and compared to GHA, dino’s are simple to deal with.

High pH coupled with blackout will normally kill off dino’s. You may have tried lights out which will give temporary relief but did you increase your pH to around 8.4??? My guess is no. Dino’s don’t like high pH and the lights out knocks it back while the high pH gives it a double whammy. Did you try UV sterilization? My guess is no. A good quality property setup UV sterilzer will rid a tank of Dino’s pretty much everytime because it eliminates it from the water column which is in part how it spreads. Siphoning and blowing off the rocks coupled with a quality UV sterilzer will rid a tank of dino’s within a matter of days nearly if not 100% of the time. In fact, I have NEVER had an occurrence of dino’s on a system with a quality UV sterilzer.

 

[sde1500]

Went back through posts. Your tank is 4 months old. If we can even call it that old after all you've done to it. You've made dozens of posts over the last two months regarding Dinos. You've done a 5 day black out (not sure a water change followed), dosed chemicals (dinox), asked about dosing bleach (seriously?), restarted your tank by killing the rock in freshwater, and now nuke again with peroxide and probably declared victory too soon. So what you now have is a brand new tank that will go through all stages of ugly again and probably get dinos again. All while asking for help, thanking and agreeing with people's suggestions and not following them. I didn't check all your posts but didn't see any mention of what your nutrient levels were testing. Did find a ton of "+1" and a couple slightly ironic posts of you telling others how important stability is.

People here are giving you the proper advice and will help if you let them. You talk of dinos as if they are plaguing your tank but it sounds more like you read about others who didn't address them in time and you freaked out. I've had diatoms, dinos, red turf algae, bubble algae, some other slime algaes and GHA. Dinos lasted a couple weeks. There was something feeding them. I blasted them off the rocks and kept up cleaning the tank and they went away. Some constructive criticism, practice what you preach to others. Keep your tank stable and let your tank do it's thing.

 

[ReefMaster48]

So you raised your pH to 8.4? And you tried a UV sterilzer too?


I've never had an issue ridding a tank of dino's and as I said, I have been dealing with marine aquariums for 30 years now. In fact, I've had my current tank for over 25 years and it's been up and running non stop at this house to over 20 years after moving it from my previous house. I'm no stranger to dino's as I have encountered many systems that had it at one point or another. My guess is that you didn't try all the methods I've mentioned because if you did, you more than likely wouldn't have started this thread because you would have beat your dino problem. There is nothing magical about dino's and compared to GHA, dino's are simple to deal with.

High pH coupled with blackout will normally kill off dino's. You may have tried lights out which will give temporary relief but did you increase your pH to around 8.4??? My guess is no. Dino's don't like high pH and the lights out knocks it back while the high pH gives it a double whammy. Did you try UV sterilization? My guess is no. A good quality property setup UV sterilzer will rid a tank of Dino's pretty much everytime because it eliminates it from the water column which is in part how it spreads. Siphoning and blowing off the rocks coupled with a quality UV sterilzer will rid a tank of dino's within a matter of days nearly if not 100% of the time. In fact, I have NEVER had an occurrence of dino's on a system with a quality UV sterilzer.

I do apologize, as I have not tried the UV. Actually however, I do not think that that was in the post that I had quoted. But I did try raising the PH with no success (to the dinos that is).

Perhaps getting a UV would not be a terrible idea; for dinos and other issues as a preventative measure. Thanks! :thumbsup:




I agree that there is always a cause to dinos. But sometimes, that isn't so easy to detect and even impossible in some cases. I would encourage anyone to really research dinos and the experiences; as a quick search will show the vary wide spectrum effect and "causes" of dinos.

 

[LeJeune981]

My tank is about a year old... I made the mistake of starting the system up with conditioned tap water..

(I purchased an rodi about 6 months ago or so..with top offs and regular water changes I think I've got the most of it out)

Anyways.. I went to war with gha first... after a few months.. finally got that at bay... then a system wide Dino outbreak 90 DT. 46 fuge.. a big water change and a good rock scrubbing whooped the dinos in a few hours work... then a system wide cyano outbreak...ended up resorting to chemicals for that one. (Chemiclean)
Now I am at war with some red turf algea.. nutrient control and help from my urchin. I am slowly beating that stuff too..

Nothing good happens fast in our tanks.

Diligence...elbow grease..and a lil patience will win all new tank dilemmas

Sent from my SM-S907VL using Tapatalk

 

[JohnnyHildo]

when you have perfect params and everything is seemingly in order, would you recommend leaving it be?

i think there is some confusion here.
what you are describing in attaining perfect parameters is chemical stability which is great and you should keep it up. the problem is that there are more factors at play than just having rock solid parameters as you have yet to provide biological stability. the system has not yet developed the necessary countermeasure to fight your ailments. it also pays to mention that your system will likely need additional measures to overcome dinos of plague proportion.
nuking your pods and microfauna is the short road to prolonging that process and it pays to be aware that there is more going on in your tank than the results of the few easily measurable parameters that you are paying attention to.

 

[slief]

i think there is some confusion here.
what you are describing in attaining perfect parameters is chemical stability which is great and you should keep it up. the problem is that there are more factors at play than just having rock solid parameters as you have yet to provide biological stability. the system has not yet developed the necessary countermeasure to fight your ailments. it also pays to mention that your system will likely need additional measures to overcome dinos of plague proportion.
nuking your pods and microfauna is the short road to prolonging that process and it pays to be aware that there is more going on in your tank than the results of the few easily measurable parameters that you are paying attention to.

Very well said. The things we can measure and maintain such as Ca, Alk, Mg, Salinity, pH etc tell us nothing about biological stability which is something that takes upwards of a year or more to achieve. That stability cannot be measured with test kits & is more a factor of time and allowing a system to mature without compromising the biological processes. Adding antibiotics such as red slime removers for example can compromise and legenthen the time it takes to reach maturity.

The best way to avoid issues and casualties during the first 12 months while allowing a tank to mature is to minimize lighting (especially white spectrums), maintain a clean system with a minimal fish load and in my experience, minimize water changes. With a minimal load, the water changes aren’t needed as much. All too often, people setup a new tank, wait for the initial cycle to complete, then go hog wild adding fish and corals within the first 1-4 months. Then they wonder why they have all these issues whether it’s algae breakouts, fish deaths, corals dying etc. The first year is always the toughest year for a new system. Patience during that time frame will result in a healthier system with far less losses in the long and short term. It also allows the system to become biologically stable and most of the issues such as algae, dino’s and other blooms will work themselves out with little to no intervention.

Having said that, I am a firm believer in running a quality UV sterilzer. I run a 114 watt AquaUV on my system and always install and or recommend them in systems I setup or design. While a UV certainly isn’t needed, they have lots of benefits including increased ORP, better water clarity, elimination and prevention of bacterial blooms and or water born algae, reduction of cyano, reduction of parasites and other benefits with little to no downsides. On the other hand, using a cheap UV (coralife twist, jebao etc) is a waste in my opinion and even in some cases a liability. A quality UV isn’t cheap but then again, it’s a fraction of the cost of the livestock we put into our systems.

Lastly is quality of the water going into the system. 0 TDS RODI is critical IMO. There are too many variables in tap water and a healthy system starts with the quality of the water. Using tap water can create all kinds of issues in the short term and long term. This includes providing a food source for nuisance algae’s and nuisance bacteria in addition to adding things to the water than are lethal to corals and invertebrates. The old saying: Garbage in, Garbage out comes to mind and starting with quality water means there is one less thing to cause issues.

 

[GlassReef]

...Having said that, I am a firm believer in running a quality UV sterilzer. I run a 114 watt AquaUV on my system and always install and or recommend them in systems I setup or design...

If I may, just a short side step: slief, would you mind advising where, in your system, do you have the UV connected and do you run it 24/7?

 

[slief]

If I may, just a short side step: slief, would you mind advising where, in your system, do you have the UV connected and do you run it 24/7?

In my case, it runs off my closed loop pump and yes, it runs 24/7. Depending on the system, I will often plumb them in on the return pump. The AquaUV's are designed for higher flow rates so they work really well when plumbed in on returns, closed loops or even via a manifold fed by the return. The key is getting proper flow rates for the UV size.

This is the UV setup on the closed loop of my system at my home.