DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas.

[hahnmeister]

Okay, well, here are some pics of the 5000... the first gen of this pump (then 901, then 110). The internals on this one look different than last time I cracked one open... think that was a 901 though. Ill open up one of those later and double check.

Anyways...

 

[hahnmeister]

quangtam7 must have lucked out and got a larger impeller with a disk on the impeller...
http://www.hagen.com/pdf/ponds/Utility_Pump_Guide.pdf
no matter... either one should be an easy conversion to a meshwheel.

quangtam7, can you give us more pics/specs how you did yours?

 

[hahnmeister]

This page provides a better look at the impellers... as they get bigger, the shaft doesnt need support at both ends, the disk around the impeller is used to hold the impeller in place...
http://www.azponds.com/submersible_pump_parts.htm#laguna_pump_parts

Gee... I wonder what other impellers have that disk thingy attached...

 

[smjtkj]

This is an awesome idea! If you remember way back when you were playing with the smaller aquaclears, I asked what you thought about this model! At the time you thought they were too inefficient. I am happy you decided to take a closer look! I am on board too!

Mike

 

[RandyStacyE]

Hahnmeister,

Maybe the shroud ‘seal’ could be accomplished using a simple gasket instead of an O-ring groove. It looks like you would have a HUGE sealing surface.

 

[hahnmeister]

Thats kinda what I was thinking. Then make a 1/4"-3/8" plate with that gasket like Royal does. The complication comes in then when we put the screws on... Something tells me that RE must just glue this plate to the pump for the best seal, then the plate is threaded for the larger volute to attach to that. Im thinking though that maybe with the DIY though, the plate should be screw-on, and then the volute is a fixed, attached part... and then, the volute cover is the removable part. That way, the gasket would seal the screws and the volute all in one, and the volute wouldnt need a seal... it would be bonded.

How would I make the volute cover removable? Well, look at quangtam7's volute closely... at the bottom you will see a bar-code... that tells me that his volute is actually a PVC fitting... maybe 3", maybe 4". Then, all I would have to do is hack up a cleanout adapter, and the removable lid would actually be a threaded cap... at least at first.

The other issue is startup direction and supporting the impeller. My version doesnt have that disk to hold the impeller in place like the larger ones... so Ill have to come up with some sort of shaft support... shouldnt be too hard.

Then there is startup direction... normally these pumps might spin both ways... how does RE get away with the volute which isnt symetric then? From what I remember though, these pumps start in on direction 90% of the time though... and once its running...

Heck, I could prolly chop up acrylic... I have cast 1/4" and 3/8", as well as 3" and 4" acrylic pipe, as well as acrylic pipe for the intake and outlets. That might be sick looking... a DIY Red Dragon with a Clear Volute. Actually... that might be pretty easy to do... Then I can see whats going on inside to optimize it further (take high-speed camera footage and look at the bubble behavior). Screw the removable volute idea...

 

[JCTewks]

i'm in...i'm going to try and get a pump this week. keep up the good work hahn!!!

 

[JCTewks]

what is the exact model of the pump you are using?? i see that on AZPonds they have the impellers with the disk on them....for th 5000, 7000, and 10000 pumps. should i buy the disked impeller seperate from the pump? or will a new pump come with the disk? i thought i saw a date of 7/98 on your pump hahn.

they also have the old version 5000 series pumps that shold have the disked impellers for 90 bucks
http://www.azponds.com/subpumps.htm

 

[Bishop]

Something to consider: It takes almost zero effort for Askoll to wind a custom stator to meet Royal-Exclusive's peak torque, wattage, and rpm requirements. Since they sell a niche market pump and charge a premium, they can afford to produce smaller quantities of specialty pumps. On the other hand, the tooling for the injection molded pieces typically start at 50,000 and rapidly go up. So it makes less sense to have Askoll (or third party) manufacture a custom housing for such a small quantity of pumps.

Hagen is producing a broader range product which larger market penetration to justify and make profitable their investment.

My point is simply: Just because they have the same manufacturer and have the same housing, in no way means they are the same pump.

Best of luck though, I would like to see you guys succeed. Lets see those dynamometer tests.

 

[hahnmeister]

It looks like the 5000, 7000, and 10,000 are the ones on that site that have the disk holding the impeller in place. Of the 'Utility Pump' Line, the disked impellers are the 5, 7, and 10. Of the Water Garden or WG pumps, it looks like they are the 3000, 5000, and 7000.

Hagen has some of the most confusing naming uses... their 'current line', which is usually nothing more than most of the old models recycled with new numbers and a few new added in, is shown here...
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=15900&N=62728+113361

As well as here...
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=13184&N=62728+113361

go figure. It seems like as long as you get one that is rated at 100 watts or larger, you will get the disk impeller. The best thing to do is compare with the user manuals, as they show the imlpellers rather well, and we know that anything that is at least the Utility Pump 6 or larger in output will have the disk impeller holder (we can see the shaft for the Utility 5 still needs support at both ends).
http://www.hagen.com/usa/ponds/manual.cfm

I dont know... its not that big a deal though. I was thinking a simple cross-brace in the center of the volute wouldnt be that bad really. I could even contour the fins of the cross brace to help direct air+water better over the impeller... like propeller blades or in a swirling shape to help water move to the outside of the volute better. I mean, whats the big deal... I can put a 1.5" intake on the pump while Im at it if needed.

The 6 is rated at 83 watts and about 1600gph though... thats a big pump. The good news is that that wattage should drop down to about 50-60 with modding... and this pump should get as high as 2000lph of air.

Its a shame Hagen doesnt make these pumps with threaded fittings... they would make excellent pumps for this hobby as is. Of the years I have used them, they are just as, if not quieter, than the eheims. I know... thats a bold statement... but look at them... that nice ceramic shaft, ceramic ends/shaft holders on the ends even (spacers I suppose), ceramic on the impeller... these things were meant to last.

Okay, so here's the comparison list...
Laguna Utility 4 = Aquaclear 5000/901/110 = WG 2000 = new Powerjet 900 (az and foster&smith) = new Max Flo 900
All move about 900gph with 63-65 watts.

Laguna Utility 5 = WG 3000 = Powerjet 3000 (az ponds) = new Powerjet 1300 = Powerjet 3000
72 watts and 1280gph

++++ from this point on up = disk supported impellers+++

Laguna Utility 6 = WG 5000 = Powerjet 5000
83watts, 1640gph

new Powerjet 1500 = new Max Flo 1500
100watts, 1500gph

new Powerjet 2000 = new Max Flo 2000
100watts, 2000gph


Laguna Utility 7 = Laguna WG 7000 = Powerjet 7000 = Powerjet (Skimmer pump) 2150
129w, 2142gph

new Powerjet 2400 = new Max Flo 2400
100watts, 2400gph

new Powerjet 2900 = new Max Flo 2900
130watts, 2900gph.. might as well be the 2905 but just a little different...

Powerjet (Skimmer pump) 2905 = Powerjet 10,000
137watts, 2905gph

new Max-Flo 4200
160watts, 4200gph
right up there with a Dart/Orca needlewheel wattage wise (or rather the 2905 is), but with a 4-5" diameter volute... based on the flow 'curve' of the other models, I bet this thing could do 4000+ lph of air if anyone is interested.

So perhaps the best disk supported pump to go after would be the Laguna Utility 6 = WG 5000 = Powerjet 5000 series... prolly find a bunch on clearance... azponds.com has them on sale for $82 each.

My guess is that the 901 series (65watts/900gph) should convert to this...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=655
Looks about right... 1000lph of air, 42watts as a needlewheel.

Then the utility 5 goes into something like this...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=656

Utility 6... http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=657
...thats right, a modded Laguna 6 can make 2000lph of air on a needlewheel... imagine what it could do as a meshwheel!!!



Utility 7...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=658
...thats right, a modded Laguna 7 can make 2500lph of air on a needlewheel... imagine what it could do as a meshwheel!!!

This would make sense since these pumps are about that old, and the newer pumps werent out then... so the RDs are most likely built around the utility pump 'era'.

Look at the impeller on this Red Dragon...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=653

Looks alot like a Powerjet 7000 impeller...
http://www.azponds.com/submersible_pump_parts.htm#laguna_pump_parts
Wow... so I can take a $90 pump, make a new volute from some acrylic, Delrin, or PVC, and charge $1020! Oh, that and swap out the shaft from the ceramic to a nice alloy one.

Looks like I 'cracked the code' on that one.

Well, I should have a 'clone' done some time this weekend out of acrylic... the shroud at least.

 

[hahnmeister]

I do wonder what Royal Exclusiv does about the shaft support on the two smaller class pumps... I think all the Red Dragons use the 'disk support'... maybe they sub in an impeller from a the Laguna 6 series or something like that. I doubt it would be lucrative to machine custom disks and impeller parts for that... it would be easier just to make a support in the volute.

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9713867#post9713867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bishop
Something to consider: It takes almost zero effort for Askoll to wind a custom stator to meet Royal-Exclusive's peak torque, wattage, and rpm requirements. Since they sell a niche market pump and charge a premium, they can afford to produce smaller quantities of specialty pumps. On the other hand, the tooling for the injection molded pieces typically start at 50,000 and rapidly go up. So it makes less sense to have Askoll (or third party) manufacture a custom housing for such a small quantity of pumps.

Hagen is producing a broader range product which larger market penetration to justify and make profitable their investment.

My point is simply: Just because they have the same manufacturer and have the same housing, in no way means they are the same pump.

Best of luck though, I would like to see you guys succeed. Lets see those dynamometer tests.

Thats a good point... but why would they need a custom stator? Seriously... Im asking. It seems that there are plenty of models in their stock line that would work, and then the impellers switch right over as well. Would there be a reason for why the stator would have to be custom?

On a side note: I wonder how hard it would be to call up Sicce and get them to just send the Tunze/ATI hydrofoamer/threadwheel pump OEM-style. I bet they are no more than $60 each this way. They make the whole pump there you know for Tunze/ATI (with the exception of the needlewheel/meshwheel perhaps).

 

[Tigger240]

hahn i was going to give you a rash of crap for this "absurd idea" but it looks like very phesable to diy a red dragon. i was like man, i kinda feel bad now. good luck to you, and im looking forward to seeing how your project works out. i can cad anything that you need, 2d or 3d in autocad, if it would help you in any way.

 

[hahnmeister]

Why would you give me a 'rash of crap'? Lol. No, seriously, I dont mind that you doubt... its not me you doubt, its the possibility to make a RD clone from a Laguna pump. What obstacles do/did you see?

Cool, thanks for the luck and CAD help. Im EE, we dont get to learn CAD and all that cool stuff that the ME and Civil guys get to... so Ill admit, Im CAD illiterate (well, not so much pure CAD, but some of the CNC stuff). Maybe mass-production? Lol.

You know, I know Klaus's biggest regret was that he never patented the bubble plate design... thats why others can use it/ copy it. I'll bet he never patented the Red Dragons either so selling conversion kits wouldnt be illegal. All it would be is a new impeller/ modded one, an alloy shaft, and the volute. Or at least, make the CAD/CNC code public so that anyone could make their own. Lol.

This must be why Klaus started making the Red Dragon 2 (DC) and Silver Dragon pumps... a new pump so he could patent it and nobody else could copy.

 

[Tigger240]

yea i did doubt that you could make a red dragon from a laguna pump. i just didnt think it was going to work out to be this way. you say red dragon, and think 1g and then its like its gotta be super hi-tec and its gotta have a flux capicitor somewhere. those red dragon 2's look awesome. i guess when i hit the lottery or something. i still think it would be a good idea to get exact measurements from someone who has a red dragon pump, to atleast give you a starting point of what to make, and sizes in stuff.

 

[drauka99]

also if you need some cad help (I am one of those Civil guys of which you speak, but actually learned cad doing mech stuff and rendering.) I can help.

 

[douggiestyle]

well thats pretty awesome hahn. i took that pump i have. the volute is 2" inside diameter. i used the gutter guard product. zip tied over the impeller, similar to your needle point mesh mod. assuming the specs on the pump are right, along with your obsevations on watts used vs air intake. im guessing about 15-20 watts. that thing made bubbles so small they litterally where microscopic. i have know idea what the air intake (lph) was. but i was using 1/4 water line with a 1/4" barb union pressed through the hose just before the pumps intake. the air it drew was minimal considdering the restraints BUT i could just about blow into the tube with all my might and the pump was able to handle the extra air. now the funny thing (and i believe you noted this in the mesh wheel thread) the water flow from the pump drop drasticly but what was coming out looked like shaving cream. unfortunately i lack the cammera to capture this. but this led me to understand the need for a diffuser at the bottom of the skimmer. at least when doing the shaving foam. it just didnt move around at all. came out and floated up. leaving the intire bottom half of the skimmer body clear (in comparison). so maybe changing out the 1/4" (with a barbed fitting so, the actual final id was about 1/16") with something more substantial would increase the air draw. i like this idea about DRASTICLY increasing the volute.

so here are some pics. i used the <A href="http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=769752&perpage=25&pagenumber=4">original</A> prugs 5 gallon jug skimmer that i built but never used.

 

[hahnmeister]

Thats pretty good... the intake is almost as white as the output. You need to get an airflow meter on there to be sure. If the outlet is so slow that its like shaving cream... you might have too much restriction on the intake side of the pump... just a possibility. Like you said... impossible to know w/o actual readings and seeing in person.

But yeah... larger volutes, larger input and outputs are the key to better performing pumps. Look at Maxi-Jets, Mags, most external pumps, etc... they suck as needlewheels. The major problem with the AquaEuro skimmer pumps is the same... large needlewheel impeller... sure... but that means nothing since the pump's volute is barely larger than the impeller and the pump outlet is only 1/2" FPT.

Then, look at the 'big dogs'... Needlewheel Darts/ORCAs, Red Dragons, the new Tunze hydrofoamer, etc... they are all high-flow, low speed, low pressure pumps with large volutes and large outlets. Look at an eheim even... look at that volute... its 2.5" in diameter, and the outlet, well... if you sand out the threads and bond a union to the outside of the pump... its outlet is more than 1" in diameter. No wonder it can get up to 1800lph as a threadwheel. The larger volute allows for more air inside without the need for as much water flow.

 

[smjtkj]

Doug, which pump did you use? The PF4 mesh has shown to be a pretty substantial improvement over the gutter guard. Also, if you increase the air hose to 3/8 id, it will be a huge improvment.
Man you guys have me all amped over these pumps. I am thinking about trying one in place of the dart threadwheel I did.
I am thinking about using the 5000 or 7000.
Mike

 

[douggiestyle]

i used a johnson drain pump from a frigidaire dishwasher. magdrive. i was moved by its wattage, valute and intake/outake size. they are large due to the trash in the water. think small trash pump. and extra quiet. should see the bosch pumps, i dont think bosch builds them, it maybe askoll. askoll claims to build bosch pumps, may not build all of them. anyways very sweet. and supposed to be one of the most energy effcient pumps available. very very very quiet. ive been trying to track down the exact specs on the bosch pumps but cant get them. will post pics.