DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas.

[xJake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12667352#post12667352 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
There is no "new" 5000

The one you want is the "PowerJet 2000", it will be the one labeled as "electronic".

Ok, so then what is azponds selling? Which one (2000 or 5000) should I buy for this project?

 

[hahnmeister]

Its interesting. I was looking back in the thread to page 5, reviewing all the 'claims' that people were making, as well as the recent posts by Klaus in that dutch forum, as well as here:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...7028&perpage=25&highlight=Laguna&pagenumber=2

Not to mention, I have been on the phone with two other D&D guys today (RE is under the D&D aquarium solutions group along with Giesemann and others), and they say that the Red Dragons are stock motors as well. The impellers get swapped out, shafts redone, etc.... but the motorblock itself is identical (well, drilled for a lime loop later on). The larger the magnet in size and strength, the less the gap between the magnet and the stators, so the better performance is possible (you could claim more torque, less wattage, etc... but also less space for cooling so the anti-lime loop comes in). This is the reason why you also see large pumps cap out at about the Mag36/Laguna 4200 level... as you get larger and larger, you start to lose too much efficiency because of the gap between the magnet and motor in water-cooled pumps. This is also why externals are better usually, because the magnets can travel within a paper-thin distance from the windings. The alternative is a sealed motor w/ shaft... like a RD2 for instance. The problem is that AC motors tend to make alot of heat at the motor, so cooling is very hard with a sealed rotor/stator design... so then you move to DC, which runs alot cooler at the motor.

But to all you guys who said 'it cant be done, there is something custom' about the RD motorblocks that you can't replicate... it seems a 'neener neener neener' is in order. ;D

OTOH, these RD2's look totally sweet:
http://glassbox-design.com/2008/interzoo-2008-bubble-king-dc-supermarin-300/

But the volute still look too restricted. I wonder how much better they would be if the volutes were enlarged to be the same diameter as the motor itself, you know?

OTOH, it looks like more of the 'custom volutes' are catching on...
http://glassbox-design.com/2008/deltec-to-release-new-model/

 

[xJake]

Ok, I'm completely confused now and I need some clarification.

Hahn,
At azponds they've got the Powerjet 2000 (926 gph, 65w) and the Powerjet 5000 (1640 gph, 85w). Which one of these would be the best choice to mod for a 12" skimmer body? Is there any concern of brass parts? Does either need shaft support in the intake of the volute? It seems cheapest to get a case of the 2000's and just mod more than 1 if needed. Also, do you have any suggestions for skimmer neck diameter for the amount of air these things pull?


Thanks in advance,
Jake

 

[liveforphysics]

Hahnsmeister-

"But the volute still look too restricted. I wonder how much better they would be if the volutes were enlarged to be the same diameter as the motor itself, you know?"

If the volute internal cross-sectional becomes wider than the diameter of the ID of the outlet, you drop efficiency in a pump. The ideal volute does not require the mixture to accelerate upon exiting the housing. The reason you see improvements with large volutes is because it better suits the impeller turbulence in these odd slurry (multi-density fluid, aka, air/water) flow applications. What I'm trying to say, is to avoid judging a volute in which the housing CSA appears to match the outlet CSA before you see the impellor.


Also, what dimensions and acrylic thickness would you like for your cone?

Best Wishes,
-Luke

 

[JCTewks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12667726#post12667726 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xJake
Ok, I'm completely confused now and I need some clarification.

Hahn,
At azponds they've got the Powerjet 2000 (926 gph, 65w) and the Powerjet 5000 (1640 gph, 85w). Which one of these would be the best choice to mod for a 12" skimmer body? Is there any concern of brass parts? Does either need shaft support in the intake of the volute? It seems cheapest to get a case of the 2000's and just mod more than 1 if needed. Also, do you have any suggestions for skimmer neck diameter for the amount of air these things pull?


Thanks in advance,
Jake

Both of those have brass in their impeller, and the 2000 needs the shaft support!

Scroll on down the page and you'll see the "PowerJet" series of pumps....those are the ones you want to buy...either the 1500 (for up to 100scfh), or the 2000 (for IIRC up to 200scfh).

 

[hahnmeister]

As you pointed out, the two-phase mixture seems to be the big difference between these and other pumps as far as efficiency goes... I would say that the volute CSA could be 1.5-2x as large compared to a 'water only' pump from my observations. But you are right... no 'judging' going on, only 'wonder' at this point. I know that the higher speeds of the DC pumps might be changing things as well. It seems to me that as the speed changes, the air and water might undergo different sets of forces at higher speeds... the air/water ratios might change, or the use of different venturi diameters depending on the motor speed. I would go so far as to say at a high enough speed, the 2-phase mixture might be able to be treated as a single-phase again... blending the air & water so fast and well early on in the volute that the impeller has a better 'bite' into the mix.

I'll PM you on the cone.

 

[customcolor]

i thought the power jet 2000s wouldnt have the shaft suport. i just got one new off ebay and it has the shaft suport on the inlet. now what do i do to increase the input diamiter????

 

[JCTewks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12760231#post12760231 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by customcolor
i thought the power jet 2000s wouldnt have the shaft suport. i just got one new off ebay and it has the shaft suport on the inlet. now what do i do to increase the input diamiter????

I'm guessing it is one of the OLD style 2000's....back when the 5000 was the smalest model without the shaft support! How much did you pay for it? That'll prob be a good clue as to if it's the "old" model or the "new" model. What is the flow rating?

Or, got any pics?

 

[customcolor]

i won the bid at like 65 and the flow is like 947gph

 

[JCTewks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12762573#post12762573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by customcolor
i won the bid at like 65 and the flow is like 947gph

Yep, it's the old style...the new ones are going for around $125 from all of the ebay stores.

That sucks...thought you had a deal

 

[JCTewks]

on the new models the model # stands for the flowrate in GPH...the old ones stood for flow rate in LPH like the Sedra's, OR's, and Octo's

 

[hahnmeister]

Thats the old version of the 900.

 

[customcolor]

junk then? or what do i do and any one have pics?


atleast there is no brass!

 

[JCTewks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12767422#post12767422 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by customcolor
junk then? or what do i do and any one have pics?


atleast there is no brass!

Well, there is brass in there But, it should be epoxied up enough to not cause a problem.

THe pump is not necessarily junk...they just max out around 60scfh with a full custom volute (i think, Jon can chime in ).

PM one of the folks in the OctoPro 250 thread and see if any of them will let you have one of their first Gen volutes....One of the guys was kind enough to send me theirs for some testing with a 1300 I have!

 

[Duane867]

Where can I find a thread on DIY Venturi's ?

 

[BlueStag]

I just picked up a used skimmer body of 8 inch wide x 20 inch tall with a 6 inch wide neck that rises 7 inches. Do you think the 1500 will be enough or should I go with the 2000?

 

[BlueStag]

The skimmer's total height is 30" not 20". The body alone is 20" tall with a 7" riser.

 

[JCTewks]

the 1500 should be fine on that size body...the 2000 would probably make it a rocket :lol:

 

[slowpork]

hi.

I achieve only 10-20 scfh through mesh-modded Laguna 2400 . Any suggestions how I can improve?

- Laguna 2400
- 2 layers of Enkamat 7010 and 1 layer of 7210 (cut to wheel size around 2"ish and 5/8 inch tall, 4 zip ties)
- Air tube 1/2" ID
- Kill-a-watt , before mod (1.41 amp, 96 watt)
- Kill-a-watt , after mod (1.22 amp, 72 watt)

 

[hahnmeister]

Well, have you enlarged the volute/impeller well yet?