douggiestyle
New member
did and unless i missed something "removing two screws" doesnt explain much
DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas.
- Thread starter hahnmeister
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did and unless i missed something "removing two screws" doesnt explain much
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Yeah, my pumps are here... but Im pretty busy. When the opportunity presents itself, Ill get the custom volutes done though. (Im still going through all of my options, no exactly doing nothing... just trying to find the best way to get certain things done...)
douggie, in that link to the zeovit forums, you will see pics of the bottom with the two titanium screws. These two screws hold that plate that the pump is mounted to to the bottom of the skimmer. The entire collection cup comes off the top, and then the pump w/ bubble diffuser attached simply lifts out the top of the skimmer.
douggie, in that link to the zeovit forums, you will see pics of the bottom with the two titanium screws. These two screws hold that plate that the pump is mounted to to the bottom of the skimmer. The entire collection cup comes off the top, and then the pump w/ bubble diffuser attached simply lifts out the top of the skimmer.
douggiestyle
New member
hahn, yeah i kind of figured that. thanks for assuming im ignorant. 
what i was getting at was the power cord bit, looks like there are two screws holding down a plate over the power cord, im assuming that there is some sort of gasket that seals around the power cord. it looks like the cord would have to be cut to fully remove the pump (along with its cord)? actually what really has me baffeled is how the pump is connected to its intake (the bit including the bulk head). if it just lifts out as you suggest im guessing that the pumps intake is just resting in side that bulkhead?
what i was getting at was the power cord bit, looks like there are two screws holding down a plate over the power cord, im assuming that there is some sort of gasket that seals around the power cord. it looks like the cord would have to be cut to fully remove the pump (along with its cord)? actually what really has me baffeled is how the pump is connected to its intake (the bit including the bulk head). if it just lifts out as you suggest im guessing that the pumps intake is just resting in side that bulkhead?
juliovideo
Premium Member
Hi hahnmeister,I will show to you in the project that I am.............my english is bad ,and I do not write much.
greetings
http://www.acuarios-marinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7948
The Walmart Store the Disposal Sink Strainer is by $ 1.29 dollar and y the same for Basket Strainer but I need to modify it.
greetings
http://www.acuarios-marinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7948
The Walmart Store the Disposal Sink Strainer is by $ 1.29 dollar and y the same for Basket Strainer but I need to modify it.
juliovideo
Premium Member
The Disposal Sink Strainer is for to make the impeller.
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RandyStacyE
New member
What do you think about using a floor drain strainer for a bubble plate?
Some places (web sites) sell these plates separately; otherwise the drains are around $7.84 for the whole deal. Not that attractive for a clear skimmer, but I happen to have a few lying around and have no use for them. Each hole is a tad larger than a 3/8†drill bit. The plat is just slightly larger than 6-5/8†in diameter.
Some places (web sites) sell these plates separately; otherwise the drains are around $7.84 for the whole deal. Not that attractive for a clear skimmer, but I happen to have a few lying around and have no use for them
. Each hole is a tad larger than a 3/8†drill bit. The plat is just slightly larger than 6-5/8†in diameter.
glassbox-design
New member
hahn, i was looking at that thread the other day and noticed the same thing...i think we have a winner here with or without the custom volute. looks like klaus agrees...
douggiestyle
New member
i think custom volute is the easy part.
my bud has a mini lathe i think i should head over there and give it a workout.
ive been doing some thinking and i believe the the reason that the laguna pumps are getting such great #s for the watts is the impellar design. the windins and such should have little to do with the pumps efficiency. its all about the impeller. using this logic im thinking that a mag pump can be used. i believe it was stated earlier in this thread that the mags were a poor choice because of the watts and heat vs gph. but im sure the gph is highly due to the impeller design. with a better impeller im sure that the compare with the wats vs gph that laguna has. this could make for some good mods. the mags have some good traits, no brass and the way the valute attaches. also the poles are aranged to easily drill for shaft cooling and lubrication. and a very sturdy design.
my bud has a mini lathe i think i should head over there and give it a workout.
ive been doing some thinking and i believe the the reason that the laguna pumps are getting such great #s for the watts is the impellar design. the windins and such should have little to do with the pumps efficiency. its all about the impeller. using this logic im thinking that a mag pump can be used. i believe it was stated earlier in this thread that the mags were a poor choice because of the watts and heat vs gph. but im sure the gph is highly due to the impeller design. with a better impeller im sure that the compare with the wats vs gph that laguna has. this could make for some good mods. the mags have some good traits, no brass and the way the valute attaches. also the poles are aranged to easily drill for shaft cooling and lubrication. and a very sturdy design.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
The windings do determine alot... efficiency, speed, torque... and should be matched up as close as possible with the impeller. What you say about the impeller being the critical component, and the only thing that matters is PARTLY true.
Im afraid its a huge balancing act, and much too much to try to explain here 100% though (its a whole different thread). Lets just put it this way though... the reason I dont like the Mag is the same reason I dont like The Octopus pumps, and other cheaper makes. While you are somewhat correct that you can 'customize' the impeller to overcome the drawbacks of a pump, the truth is that you have to start out with a good pump in the first place. If the windings and pump design are not done properly, there is nothing you can do to overcome this with the impeller. There are limits that a poor motor will have. The problem with some cheaper motors isnt in how they match up to the impellers, but how they match up to the current coming from the wall.
Most European made pumps are of higher quality because underneath it all, they are 220v. But some of these american makes and chinese makes have skimped on things like copper to make the production costs cheaper. This is what causes the pumps to heat up more. See, eheims, hagens, aquabees... they have to be built to 220v tolerances, so running on 110v is a piece of cake even if designed cheaply by EU standards. This is part of the reason why aquabees are so great to us, yet to many euro-reefers, they have a reputation of a mag-drive in the US.
The idea of using a Mag is a good one, but the reason I wont do it is because I know that there is only so much that can be done with them before you hit their operational limit. Smaller windings = voltage not carried as well = more current used = more heat on smaller windings = even less efficiency (electricity wasted on heat rather than movement). From an engineers standpoint, the efficiency improvement between a Mag to an eheim may be going from 60 to 65%... as a good amount of the energy used on pumps is wasted as heat in the first place.... to an engineering team, that 5% loss in efficiency may be worth the 10% greater profit margin in the US given price of copper. In the US, the value more efficient motor hasnt been a huge issue until recent, and still isnt compared to say... Germany... so a US mfg might sacrifice that 5% efficiency, and an EU mfg might gain more from using the windings, making a better, more efficient motor because the double cost of electricity. The only way to make a Mag as efficient as an eheim or Laguna would be to limit its incoming voltage really (among a couple other things like pf correction circuits)... so it wont heat up as much, it will run more efficient then, etc.
My suggestion to ANYONE modding ANY pumps for needlewheels is to use a kill-a-watt or other device to measure power factor. You really want to match up the power factor of the modded pump with the original as best as possible... a realistic PF for a good pump is .80 < and so if you do your needlewheel mod and you get .40 (not uncommon), you want to increase (or you can increase) the diameter/thickness until the power factor is really as high as you can get it without stalling the pump on startup. This may be .80, or this may be .6 ... The power factor is important because it determines efficiency, and to a certain extent, will determine the longevity of the pump. If the power factor is poor (say, .25) the pump may run hotter than normal, can crud up your electrical lines with interference, etc. pf is after all, real power/apparent power. Apparent power is what you pay for at the meter, but real power is what the pump will actually be using. So even though the RMS reading may be 40 watts, the pump may really be using over 100 easily (the VA reading). This of course, will burn out the motor faster.
For example, on my crappy Aqua Euro 590 pumps, the stock pump itself has a PF of about .3 This is simply dismal. The worst pumps I had tested until this point were about a .75. This number is used to calculate pump efficiency in a rather big way...
Power Out of Motor = Sqrt(3)*V*I *pf *efficiency.
As you can see, the powerfactor is a major number here. A pump with a power factor of .3 will have half the efficiency of a pump that is .6... and most pumps with great power factors are still only at about 80% efficiency... the rest goes to heat. So that pump with a pf of .3 will run very very warm. Using a pump with a good power factor to begin with is an indication that it is a cooler running pump.
Now, if you have a pump that runs normally at .3, there is little you can do to get above that number no matter what you do with the impeller. Its all downhill from there...
Im afraid its a huge balancing act, and much too much to try to explain here 100% though (its a whole different thread). Lets just put it this way though... the reason I dont like the Mag is the same reason I dont like The Octopus pumps, and other cheaper makes. While you are somewhat correct that you can 'customize' the impeller to overcome the drawbacks of a pump, the truth is that you have to start out with a good pump in the first place. If the windings and pump design are not done properly, there is nothing you can do to overcome this with the impeller. There are limits that a poor motor will have. The problem with some cheaper motors isnt in how they match up to the impellers, but how they match up to the current coming from the wall.
Most European made pumps are of higher quality because underneath it all, they are 220v. But some of these american makes and chinese makes have skimped on things like copper to make the production costs cheaper. This is what causes the pumps to heat up more. See, eheims, hagens, aquabees... they have to be built to 220v tolerances, so running on 110v is a piece of cake even if designed cheaply by EU standards. This is part of the reason why aquabees are so great to us, yet to many euro-reefers, they have a reputation of a mag-drive in the US.
The idea of using a Mag is a good one, but the reason I wont do it is because I know that there is only so much that can be done with them before you hit their operational limit. Smaller windings = voltage not carried as well = more current used = more heat on smaller windings = even less efficiency (electricity wasted on heat rather than movement). From an engineers standpoint, the efficiency improvement between a Mag to an eheim may be going from 60 to 65%... as a good amount of the energy used on pumps is wasted as heat in the first place.... to an engineering team, that 5% loss in efficiency may be worth the 10% greater profit margin in the US given price of copper. In the US, the value more efficient motor hasnt been a huge issue until recent, and still isnt compared to say... Germany... so a US mfg might sacrifice that 5% efficiency, and an EU mfg might gain more from using the windings, making a better, more efficient motor because the double cost of electricity. The only way to make a Mag as efficient as an eheim or Laguna would be to limit its incoming voltage really (among a couple other things like pf correction circuits)... so it wont heat up as much, it will run more efficient then, etc.
My suggestion to ANYONE modding ANY pumps for needlewheels is to use a kill-a-watt or other device to measure power factor. You really want to match up the power factor of the modded pump with the original as best as possible... a realistic PF for a good pump is .80 < and so if you do your needlewheel mod and you get .40 (not uncommon), you want to increase (or you can increase) the diameter/thickness until the power factor is really as high as you can get it without stalling the pump on startup. This may be .80, or this may be .6 ... The power factor is important because it determines efficiency, and to a certain extent, will determine the longevity of the pump. If the power factor is poor (say, .25) the pump may run hotter than normal, can crud up your electrical lines with interference, etc. pf is after all, real power/apparent power. Apparent power is what you pay for at the meter, but real power is what the pump will actually be using. So even though the RMS reading may be 40 watts, the pump may really be using over 100 easily (the VA reading). This of course, will burn out the motor faster.
For example, on my crappy Aqua Euro 590 pumps, the stock pump itself has a PF of about .3 This is simply dismal. The worst pumps I had tested until this point were about a .75. This number is used to calculate pump efficiency in a rather big way...
Power Out of Motor = Sqrt(3)*V*I *pf *efficiency.
As you can see, the powerfactor is a major number here. A pump with a power factor of .3 will have half the efficiency of a pump that is .6... and most pumps with great power factors are still only at about 80% efficiency... the rest goes to heat. So that pump with a pf of .3 will run very very warm. Using a pump with a good power factor to begin with is an indication that it is a cooler running pump.
Now, if you have a pump that runs normally at .3, there is little you can do to get above that number no matter what you do with the impeller. Its all downhill from there...
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Ok who wants to put a mag 24 against a laguna? 
J/K
I don't think a mag could hold a stick to the laguna. JMO
I have some delays in testing it further, I have been getting rid of some 20 ft shrubs and tree's 8 of them to be exact.
I plan to fiddle some more sunday afternoon.
Has anybody modded aquabee's? I see alot of potential, I don't think 17-20 scfh (Which i am getting now stock) Is the max these pumps can pull. JMO I would like to see 25+ scfh.
J/KI don't think a mag could hold a stick to the laguna. JMO
I have some delays in testing it further, I have been getting rid of some 20 ft shrubs and tree's 8 of them to be exact.
I plan to fiddle some more sunday afternoon.Has anybody modded aquabee's? I see alot of potential, I don't think 17-20 scfh (Which i am getting now stock) Is the max these pumps can pull. JMO I would like to see 25+ scfh.
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dudedudedude
New member
Hahn,
This is something that I have been commenting about on the thread and talking to some electrical engineer budies about. If you have a good pump but you are using an impeller that has not reached the diamter to maximize the power factor, but you dont want to increase the air/water flow or current anyfurther due to your skimmer size, can you just drop the voltage below 110 to the point before the impeller wont start?
This is something that I have been commenting about on the thread and talking to some electrical engineer budies about. If you have a good pump but you are using an impeller that has not reached the diamter to maximize the power factor, but you dont want to increase the air/water flow or current anyfurther due to your skimmer size, can you just drop the voltage below 110 to the point before the impeller wont start?
douggiestyle
New member
hahn you really dont need to explain it to me, understand it well. bottom line is the motor means absolutely nothing until you add something for them to move, end of story. you can have the best motor most efficient motor and as soon as you remove the pump the efficiency is out the window. it doesnt matter any more. so as soon as you change that pumps impeller design even the tiniest of change everything changes. now the mag may not be the best choice, i dont know. my point was that you cant rate the motor looking at the output of the pump.
you may be right on the gauge of the wire in the windings creating more heat, i know that is a factor, just dont know what the mags specs are.
there would be no comparison between a mag and and some lagunas, just look at the impellers, look at the valutes the pumps are so much better engineered on a laguna.
you may be right on the gauge of the wire in the windings creating more heat, i know that is a factor, just dont know what the mags specs are.
there would be no comparison between a mag and and some lagunas, just look at the impellers, look at the valutes the pumps are so much better engineered on a laguna.
Well I had a little time today to take the pump I have been playing with and put it in a garbage can and filled it up. Now their def was a change where smjtkj's venturi tips needed to be used. The head pressure was enough to stop the venturi. As soon as I choked it off a tiny bit with my hand it started up, and when I removed my hand it kept going, It just needed a boost to get going so closing off the input a tad to get them started up with a lot of head pressure. JMO
Ok for the air results. I got 90 scfh with the head pressure with the garbage can and I think I can get more with a modified venturi like smjtkj directed.
I will get to that tomorrow. They sent the wrong impellor, so I have to wait till Monday or Tuesday to fire up the 5000.
Ok for the air results. I got 90 scfh with the head pressure with the garbage can and I think I can get more with a modified venturi like smjtkj directed.
I will get to that tomorrow. They sent the wrong impellor, so I have to wait till Monday or Tuesday to fire up the 5000.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
douggiestyle, no worries, I wasnt aiming that information at you really so much as every other 'modder' out there. One aspect that nobody seems to pay much attention to with regards to these mods is the safety (and wear and tear on the pump), and I never just had the opportunity to 'butt in' another thread at the right time. Using the power factor to get the right size impeller is also an idea that might help a great few, and since it was mentioned...
As for a mag, besides windings, I should have mentioned that it could also be the magnets... that can also be another bottleneck.
manderx, most any 220v/50hz pump can work on 110v/60hz... it will run with less torque, and yes, higher current, but also at a higher speed due to the change in frequency. But the current isnt the imortant part, its the EM field that the copper generates, not the current so much (electrical potential vs. electron throughput). Look at how many 220v pumps are running on 110v, and then look at how many 110v pumps can run on 220v... the 220v can easily be switched, but to go 110v to 220v would require a complete reworking of the pump. You see eheims and aquabees running in the US, but you dont see Mag-Drives in the EU... the Mag would have to be seriously reworked. The current plays a part of course, but not in how you would expect perhaps? I dont know if this is comming across correctly to ya... let me know.
As for the Mag Drive... if you were to mod one, given its ceiling power factor, Id say that a custom volute is a given, yes. I was assuming that all along, as mags have one of the smallest volutes in the first place (for pressure handling). OTOH, a mag pump is much better at making pressure than one of these LAgunas... to run a beckett for instance, these Lagunas would choke.
As for a mag, besides windings, I should have mentioned that it could also be the magnets... that can also be another bottleneck.
manderx, most any 220v/50hz pump can work on 110v/60hz... it will run with less torque, and yes, higher current, but also at a higher speed due to the change in frequency. But the current isnt the imortant part, its the EM field that the copper generates, not the current so much (electrical potential vs. electron throughput). Look at how many 220v pumps are running on 110v, and then look at how many 110v pumps can run on 220v... the 220v can easily be switched, but to go 110v to 220v would require a complete reworking of the pump. You see eheims and aquabees running in the US, but you dont see Mag-Drives in the EU... the Mag would have to be seriously reworked. The current plays a part of course, but not in how you would expect perhaps? I dont know if this is comming across correctly to ya... let me know.
As for the Mag Drive... if you were to mod one, given its ceiling power factor, Id say that a custom volute is a given, yes. I was assuming that all along, as mags have one of the smallest volutes in the first place (for pressure handling). OTOH, a mag pump is much better at making pressure than one of these LAgunas... to run a beckett for instance, these Lagunas would choke.
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